Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 10:54:17 -0700 (PDT) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #199 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Too much emphasis on the use of lethal or crippling force in self defense?? (Creed71963@aol.com) 2. referre certification (CKCtaekwon@cs.com) 3. Re: And as long as we're discussing Hyungs....... (Bruce Sims) 4. Re: Groin Kick (Ray Terry) 5. Re: Re: And as long as we're discussing Hyungs....... (Ray Terry) 6. Re: KM and the oldsters (spunkykvf) 7. Chicago visit (Ken McDonough) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 02:17:09 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Too much emphasis on the use of lethal or crippling force in self defense?? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This is what I get for thinking too much......With the discussion about KM and CDT, I was thinking: Is there too much emphasis on the use of lethal or crippling force in self defense situations intoday's Martial Arts? I realize that in an all-out fight, anything goes. But with the way the Law and the Courts are these days, a Martial Artist who are forced to use his/her skills finds themselves in a position of having to justify the level of force used to the police, and maybe the Courts. It is getting to the point where a Martial Artist not only has to know the techniques of his chosen art, he has to be well versed in the local law regarding the use of force. But even if the level of force used is the correct choice, a Martial Artist can still be sued by the person who suffered the injuries. And unlike the Criminal case, where the guilt has to be established beyond a reasonable doubt, all the injured party has to prove is that the Martial Artist might be in the wrong. I have heard the preponderance of evidence only has to be 51% in a civil case. So even if the Martial Artist is in the right, they still could be forced to pay. There are so many factors that I think are not stressed enough in self defense. Take these examples. They both use the same attack: He throws the classic haymaker: A) Your opponent is 6' 8," 350lbs, and looks like a biker. He chases you into a dead-end alley, and tells you he going to break every bone in your body just before he attacks. B) Your opponent is 5' 5," maybe 150lbs soaking wet and with a brick in his pocket. He's so drunk he can barely stand. He bumps into you and decides he's mad at you for some reason. He attacks before you can calm him down. Even though they are throwing the same type of punch, the force level response has to be different in each case. Example B is not much of a threat to an alert Martial Artist. On the other hand, if I'm the person example A is going to pummel, and there's a two by four handy, guess what? Anything goes.... Let's fiddle around with the two examples above. Same basic opponent, same basic attack, but with some other circumstances: C) Your opponent is 6' 8," 350lbs, and looks like a biker. He's a good friend who's having a bad day, and you're trying to keep him from doing something stupid. He loses his temper and attacks you. D) Your opponent is 5' 5," maybe 150lbs soaking wet and with a brick in his pocket. He thinks you're looking at his girlfriend. As he attacks, you see him reaching a knife with his other hand. Again, the situations above call for different force level response. What I am saying is that one level of force does not fit all situations, and there seems (to me) that there are a few arts in which the first option that comes to mind is the "high-end" force response, to use lethal and crippling force. To me, admittedly what little I've seen of it, Krav Maga is an example of an art that is designed purely for that high-end force response. It's designed to hit an opponent hard and quickly, overwhelming his defenses as fast as possible, like an avalanche. While that concept of high-end force response would work in example A and maybe in Example D, that force level is not an option in the cases of Examples B and C. Yet, if not enough training is down in the use of lower force levels, the Martial Artist finds themselves using the upper end of the force level because they have no other choice. Which leads to a problem. Unless the art has a number of techniques at each force level, the response are limited to the force levels taught. Yet is there are too many techniques over the force levels, the Martial Artist might be hit while they are deciding on the correct response. Concepts and Principles are a great help, but unless the student is trained to determine the correct level of force to use, they will fall back on the techniques that are the most familiar to them. I think with everything the way it is these days, a Martial Artist must be able to not only to be able to use any force of level necessary to end the situation, they must know what level of force is appropriate, and know it before they act. There are too many factors to list right now, but they must be considered before a course of action is taken. Gee, I hope this all make sense. Please note that these are only my views, and I welcome any discussion on this -- after all, that is what we're here for.....^_^ Craig --__--__-- Message: 2 From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 09:08:02 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] referre certification Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > USTU Referee Certification Seminars conducted by USTU Referee Chairman > Master....... > > Friday, April 12 > 2PM to 10PM > Marriott Hotel > > Must be 17 or older. Must be 1st Dan Kukkiwon or higher. Bring dobok, pen, > note pad, TKD shoes. $45 with Referee Textbook, payable to USTU. $10 > payable > to CSTA. All payment with Cashier's Check or Money Order. Bring completed > USTU Referee Certification Seminar Application form, submit with copy of > Kukkiwon cert, 2 ID size photos. > One thing that just gets to me is in order to be a VOLUNTEER, I must pay money. I just don't understand this part of the martial arts. And it's not just to cover expenses, the certification fees for the UTSU and AAU are a bit ridiculous. I no longer participate in UTSU or AAU tournaments because of this. "Hey, we are having a tournament and we need 30 referees to volunteer their time. It will only cost you $45 to get certified. Of course don't forget to purchase a shirt for $18 and a booklet for $10." Does this bother anyone else or just me?!!!!!!! Gary Pieratt Have a Great Day! --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 08:16:27 -0500 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: And as long as we're discussing Hyungs....... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "....Let's take that one step further, many in the USA would argue that your martial arts rank and/or training is inferior if not directly from a Korean Master (like kukkiwon certificates). Or even worse if you "Americanize it" (American TSD or American Free style)......" I'm gonna hold off on passing judgement about "Americanizing" the MT of Korea. Just as an aside I think its pretty common for one culture to criticize the "new kid" for not doing things the way its done "in the ol' country". What I am focusing on in my previous post is that NOT EVEN THE KOREANS are doing it like they do it "in the ol' country"! In the US, when I go into a dochang, nobody I talk to pretends that what is taught there is some art characteristic of Americans and derived from some earliest tradition. Most schools have an American flag and a Korean flag hung on the wall to attest to the fact that what we are practicing has its roots in Korean culture. So, if I go into a dochang in Seoul do I find a Korean flag and a Japanese flag on the wall-- attesting to the fact that the folks there are practicing a an art with Japanese roots? I caught a little heat off-line for citing Dr. Kimm and the seminar that was published TKD TIMES for this month, and I want to go on record as saying that my intent was to show no disrespect to Dr. Kimm. The same goes for GM Ji and Sin Mu Hapkido. I want to draw a very clear line between who these folks are and what they do ----and ------the MANNER in which they do it. With electronic communications being what they are, and the popularity of Korean arts around the world, men of the stature of Dr. Kimm and GM Ji have the ability to influence tens of thousands. As far as I am concerned the days of teachers sitting in a dochang in downtown One-Horse, Wyoming and spinning romantic yarns about the HwaRang origins of TKD and HKD are a thing of the past. Today, Rudy can announce a seminar in Chicago in May and people in Europe and Asia can know about it within the hour. Turning the coin over, somebody needs to tell the ITF, WTF and a whole bunch of other "F"-s that these silly sandbox games about who is going to hold the reins of power belong in High School election campaigns.What does this have to do with my original post about Japanese traditions being represented by the Koreans as Korean traditions? OK, so maybe we can't turn back the clock and get the Korean to invest in genuine Korean Traditions. Maybe its in their best interests to commandere' Japanese arts and represent them as Korean. Fine, thats on them. But whatever organization that arises from this I wish to hell these bozo-s would conduct themselves like the national figures that they are. As far as I am concerned they took a wrong turn somewhere, and thats on ME. But whereever these yo-yo-s are taking the KMT bus they could do us all a big fat favor and 1.) Be more candid about what it is that they are "borrowing" from Japanese traditions, giving credit where credit is due, and 2.) Make a greater effort to reconnect with the identified Korean traditions or at least give equal weight to the Chinese traditions. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Groin Kick To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 7:05:36 PDT Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Walter Morrison said, in a public forum: > < I took a heel kick to the groin this past weekend. I wasnt wearing my cup > as it is very uncomfortable and hard to perform kicks while wearing> snip > > > My questions is....is this a result of taking a hard kick to the head? > Please, tell me that this email is a joke. FWIW, I found a cup a bit uncomfortable when I first started to wear one. But then not too long after I found it uncomfortable -not- to wear one. It very quickly became part of my regular uniform. We used to spar full power most every class, so regular wear became automatic. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: And as long as we're discussing Hyungs....... To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 9:12:40 PDT Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I caught a little heat off-line for citing Dr. Kimm and the seminar that > was published TKD TIMES for this month, and I want to go on record as > saying that my intent was to show no disrespect to Dr. Kimm. The same goes > for GM Ji and Sin Mu Hapkido. I want to draw a very clear line between who > these folks are and what they do ----and ------the MANNER in which they do > it. With electronic communications being what they are, and the popularity > of Korean arts around the world, men of the stature of Dr. Kimm and GM Ji > have the ability to influence tens of thousands. How so? Most KMAers have never heard of Dr. Kimm or GM Ji. Most KMAers don't know the diff between the WTF or the ITF, nor do they care. Most just want to train and learn and get a workout. The only folks to influence are the relative handful that pay attention to such things. Yes, many of us here pay attention to same and know Dr. Kimm from Gm Ji, but we are just a small drop in a big ocean. > What does this have to do with my original post about Japanese traditions > being represented by the Koreans as Korean traditions? OK, so maybe we > can't turn back the clock and get the Korean to invest in genuine Korean > Traditions. Maybe its in their best interests to commandere' Japanese > arts and represent them as Korean. >From where did the Japanese customs arise? From where did the Japanese Royal Family come? Not sure we know -exactly-, but it is something to consider. Do you only go back 400 or 600 years or well prior to that? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 08:03:19 -0700 From: spunkykvf To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: KM and the oldsters Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >So a question on KM... Given it was developed for the IDF (Israeli Defense >Forces) it had young, in shape, women and men in mind. People that are doing >PT (physical training) every day for breakfast, and perhaps lunch and dinner. > >It seems to work fairly well for young 20-something, fast, strong, in-shape >students training to go to war, as we see them involved in right now. How >about the rest of the world??? The 30 or 40-something folks that only do PT >during their twice a week KM classes? > >Just a question... > >Ray Terry > I agree that the system was put in for mostly young men and women, however, the Isrealis also used whatever people they had and that meant 30 and 40 yearolds as well. Not enuff young'ens to fight the war with. As for your typical American who works 40 hours/week or more, has a family and usually a sedentary job, it seems to be quite popular and work fine. The National center in LA is very popular, has low turnover, and continues to attract more students. The age range that I saw there was anywhere from early 20's to 50's. Now, of course, anyone who is 40 and over who has not exercised since college will have to start out slow, but the instructors don't seem to mind people taking breaks. I have seen and heard about all body types, and old injuries and the instructors remind people to go slow and don't do anything that they know will hurt their body due to old injuries. MA schools have older students as well and seem to do ok, altho high kicks and low stances can be a problem with aging bodies. No low stances or high kicks required in KM. People seem to make about 2-3 classes per week on avg and do ok. I actually have some lumbar disc dessication which bothers me with high kicks, and spin kicks (that old lever arm and torque problem), and since KM does not require me to do those, I have found that my back is ok with the classes. HOpe that answers your question. Spunky --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 10:00:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Ken McDonough To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Chicago visit Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Timmerman wrote: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Thanks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'd like to thank all those who attended the nkmaa seminar in Brainerd, MN. My next seminar is scheduled for April 27th weekend in Detroit, MI. Following that, I will be in Chicago on the May 25th weekend. For more info, please give me a shout at kwanjang@nkmaa.ca Sincerely, Rudy National Korean Martial Arts Association.> Response: When in Chicago, you may consider visiting the Degenberg Academy run by Fred Degenberg. He runs an eclectic school with different martial arts instructors there. It used to be on Western Avenue. Also, stop by Loyola U of Chicago. There is a small shop across the street (name escapes me). But they have various combinations of burgers and fries, e.g., Ask for a number one. That is a burger with fries. A number 2 is a cheesburger with fries. A number 3 is a Polish sausage with fries. Follows the famous Billy Goat tavern example where Bulishi got the idea for the skit about Cheesburgers and chips on Saturday Night Live. Not a bad town in the Spring and Summer. McD... P.S. I think there is a Kuk Sool Won School on the Southside of Chicago. -- __--__-- Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest