Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 17:52:19 -0700 (PDT) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #200 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Groin Kick (Wallace, John) 2. NKMAA Seminar (kevin_janisse) 3. Re: Hyung and beyond (Bruce Sims) 4. When in Chicago.... (Bruce Sims) 5. TKD in Spain (I.L.Peterson) 6. RE: And as long as we're discussing Hyungs..... (NESSWORTHY, KEN) 7. Drivel (Tom Kennelly) 8. Greek Open 2002 (Ray Terry) 9. RE: Drivel (Wallace, John) 10. Chicago revisited (Rudy Timmerman) 11. Re: Too much emphasis on the use of lethal or crippling force in self defense?? (Nathaniel_Maras@amp.com.au) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Wallace, John" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Groin Kick Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 10:25:51 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I definitely concur with Ray. I particularly found that my reluctance to risk a head level kick (either hooking or roundhouse) went way down once I had a cup. I've gotten nailed in the groin by defensive side kicks several times (yet another knock against high kicks in self-defense situations). When it comes to scoring points in sparring though, a head kick beats a groin kick every time. I've certainly never felt that the cup inhibited any kicking maneuver..in fact I can't think of any mechanical reason why a cup would interfere. The remaining problem I have with a cup is that it makes a deep stretch in the legs-spread-chest-to-the-floor position almost impossible. -John Wallace 1st gup, TKD Fremont, CA -----Original Message----- From: Ray Terry [mailto:raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 7:06 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Groin Kick > Walter Morrison said, in a public forum: > < I took a heel kick to the groin this past weekend. I wasnt wearing my cup > as it is very uncomfortable and hard to perform kicks while wearing> snip > > > My questions is....is this a result of taking a hard kick to the head? > Please, tell me that this email is a joke. FWIW, I found a cup a bit uncomfortable when I first started to wear one. But then not too long after I found it uncomfortable -not- to wear one. It very quickly became part of my regular uniform. We used to spar full power most every class, so regular wear became automatic. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "kevin_janisse" To: Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 13:24:54 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] NKMAA Seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello all, Just returned from a great seminar with Master Timmerman. We went to Master Garret DeWitt's school Brainerd MN. It was a great time, Master DeWitt was a great host and all his students displayed the virtues of true Martial Artists. Master DeWitt is a credit to the Martial Arts world. Sincerely, Kevin M. Janisse NKMAA --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 13:48:22 -0500 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Hyung and beyond Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: "....How so? Most KMAers have never heard of Dr. Kimm or GM Ji. Most KMAers don't know the diff between the WTF or the ITF, nor do they care. Most just want to train and learn and get a workout. The only folks to influence are the relative handful that pay attention to such things. Yes, many of us here pay attention to same and know Dr. Kimm from Gm Ji, but we are just a small drop in a big ocean....." Yes, I agree, we ARE a small drop albeit an important drop because we are an INFORMED drop. There was probably a time when people could write any kind of crap and get it published and everyone took it as gospel. Well, OK, they still can, but I think that there are fewer intelligent folks who sit back and accept things Carte Blanche. When someone like Shaw or Pelligrini write drivel they should expect that someone will challenge what they are publishing and hold them accountable. Most comments I have gotten about things I have said on DD reflect the attitude that I should "show proper respect for those people who are senior" to me. I would remind folks that this injunction is only one-half of the Confucian dictum. The other half is that elders should provide appropriate guidance and management to their subordinates. When individuals in positions of power maintain the integrity of their position by relying on half-truths, legends and suppositions somebody needs to stop a moment and consider getting back on the right track. "........From where did the Japanese customs arise? From where did the Japanese Royal Family come? Not sure we know -exactly-, but it is something to consider. Do you only go back 400 or 600 years or well prior to that?....." In the larger view, Ray, of course, you are correct. But how about we stick with just the last 300 years? Hell, how about the last 100 years!?! Its bad enough that the Korean culture had Japanese arts pushed down their throat at the expense of their own nationalized traditions. That was part and parcel of the Occupation. But how about after The Second World War? How about after the Korean War? How about in the 50 years since then? I'm giving you that during an Occupation people don't have much of a choice; but how about afterwards? To my way of thinking the individuals who know better, are in positions of leadership and influence and are responsible for help us, the next administrative generation, hold the reins on these organizations have been almighty selective in picking and choosing what truths are aired and in what light. Nor do I think it helps that not asking questions has been raised to some dutiful artform along with couching responses "just so." Taking Okinawan Kata derived from White Crane southern Chinese boxing traditions and representing this as KMA is crap. Knowingly doing this is fraud. Perpetuating it over a 50 year period at the expense of more authentic Korean traditions is a travesty. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 13:52:01 -0500 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] When in Chicago.... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear McD and Rudy: "....P.S. I think there is a Kuk Sool Won School on the Southside of Chicago....." The Kuk Sool Won of Chicago is on South Western and I think Michael Hill is still in charge. Personally I would rather take in YOUR seminar, Rudy. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "I.L.Peterson" To: Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 14:42:55 -0700 Organization: Philosophy Deptartment Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD in Spain Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net One of my fellow students is going to Spain for 1-2 yrs and was wanting to keep up her training. Does anyone know of any dojangs in Barcelona or Guadalajara? Thanks in advance. Ivan --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "NESSWORTHY, KEN" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 17:07:07 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: And as long as we're discussing Hyungs..... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Group I hope this discussion has not got out of hand because of what I asked, I did not intend for anyone to get into any sort of political/martial debate in who was the creator of hyungs and whether it is Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Icelandic or even from Mars. I don't however to profess than I am an expert in TSD hyungs but I do have a couple of, lets say ideas in how and why hyungs/kata/forms were derived. But I think this debate has gone on long enough and I'll save my views for another time. Thank you all and I hope you have success in what ever path you chose to walk. Ken Shinson TSD Tang Soo! --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Tom Kennelly" To: Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 17:09:55 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Drivel Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce said (taken out of context): When someone like Shaw or Pelligrini write drivel they should expect that someone will challenge what they are publishing and hold them accountable. I have never heard of Shaw but I recently attended a seminar host by GM Pellegrini and I was quite impressed. Can you point out some sources for the drivel you mentioned? --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 14:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Greek Open 2002 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Received in the mail... Ray GREEK OPEN 2002 ATHLETIC CENTERS KOUKOULETSOS KIERIOU 24,43300 SOPHADES KARDITSA,GREECE 1. ORGANIZATION A. PROMOTER: ATHLETIC CENTERS KOUKOULETSOS B. INFORMATION. MASTER VASILLIOS KOYKOYLETSOS TOURNAMENT DIRECTOR CELL PHONE :030945100388 FAX. : 03044171026 (JUST SAY FAX AND START SEND YOUR APPLICATION) Email: koykoyletsos@yahoo.gr and koykoyletsos@hotmail.com 2. PLACE AND DATE: A. ALLAMANI 37, 43100 KARDITSA, GREECE B. DATE: Sunday 16th, June 2002. 3. CONTESTANTS: MEMBERSHIP : Participants must practice Olympic style Taekwondo. A. CATEGORIES : Seniors Male and Senior Female. Juniors Male and Junior Female. B. AGE. . SENIORS: 17 years and older. JUNIORS: 14 to 17 years inclusive old. 17 years old juniors may compete as a junior and as a senior in both categories at the same time. C. GRADUATION: All competitors must hold at least 2nd GEUP. D. WEIGHT CLASSES. WTF - CLASSES. 4. RULES: A. COMPETITION RULES: WTF - COMPETITION RULES. B. MODE. : Single elimination tournament system. All rounds 3x3 min (1 min break). C. AWARDS. Individuals: Gold, Silver, 2x Bronze. Teams: 1st, 2nd and 3rd most winning team. (Gold 6 points, Silver 4 points, Bronze 2 points). Best fighter: Senior male/female junior male/female. E. HALL RULES. : Only the competitors and their coaches have admittance by the registration cards to the contest area. F. EQUIPMENT: All competitors must provide their own equipment. The following must be worn: body protector, head guard, groin guard, shin and forearm guards. G.: All competitors are considered to participate at their own risk for any damages, injuries and losses. 5. : ENTRY: A. ENTRY: By means of enclosed application form. To be sent to the: GREEK OPEN 2002, ATHLETIC CENTERS KOYKOYLETSOS, KIERIOU 24, 43300 SOPHADES, KARDITSA, GREECE. B. APPLICATIONS. Applications must considered received without entry fees. C. MODIFICATIONS: Only modifications made by mail/fax or email will accept. After the official weight in no further modifications can be made. D.: ENTRY FEE. :35 euro per person or all for two days, COMPETITORS 165 EURO/ $ 140. E.: DEADLINE: MAY 31st, 2002. F.: We advise you, should apply for visa at least (1) month before arrival in Greece. 6. HOTEL ACCOMMODATIONS: We always try to use the best available hotels. 7. TRANSPORTATION: Round trip or other transportation of the participants and officials shall be borne by themselves and with our advices. It is possible to provide you transportation from the airport to the hotels and local transportation between the sport club and the hotel. 8. REFEREES: Invitations of participating referees will be made by our Hellenic Taekwondo Association. 9. ADMISSION: Sunday 16th SPECTATORS: Above 12 years old 10 euro and free of charge under 12 years old. 10. OTHERS: VIDEO RECORDING: Recording is allowed from all areas. 11. TIME TABLE: Weight in will take place in the stadium. Sunday June 16th 2002. 8:00-9:00 Weight in 9:00-12:00 Preliminary fights 12:00-13:00 Midday break 13:00-16:00 Quarter-/ semifinals 16:00-....... Finals and Awards. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Wallace, John" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Drivel Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 14:57:07 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If you've picked up any popular MA magazines (Black Belt, Tae Kwon Do Times, etc) you've seen Dr. Shaw. He's the guy in the diagonally striped Hapkido dobok sporting a blond ponytail. Seems every other issue has an article by him in it. Anyone know what his dissertation was on? -JW 1st gup, TKD Fremont, CA -----Original Message----- From: Tom Kennelly [mailto:tkennelly@cfl.rr.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 2:10 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Drivel Bruce said (taken out of context): When someone like Shaw or Pelligrini write drivel they should expect that someone will challenge what they are publishing and hold them accountable. I have never heard of Shaw but I recently attended a seminar host by GM Pellegrini and I was quite impressed. Can you point out some sources for the drivel you mentioned? _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:37:52 -0400 From: "Rudy Timmerman" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Chicago revisited Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ken writes: > When in Chicago, you may consider visiting the Degenberg Academy > run by Fred Degenberg. He runs an eclectic school with different martial > arts instructors there. It used to be on Western Avenue. Also, stop by > Loyola U of Chicago. There is a small shop across the street (name escapes > me). But they have various combinations of burgers and fries, e.g., Ask for > a number one. That is a burger with fries. A number 2 is a cheesburger with > fries. A number 3 is a Polish sausage with fries. Follows the famous Billy > Goat tavern example where Bulishi got the idea for the skit about > Cheesburgers and chips on Saturday Night Live. > > Not a bad town in the Spring and Summer. > > McD... > > P.S. I think there is a Kuk Sool Won School on the Southside of Chicago. Hello Ken: I have been at Fred's school a number of times. Quite the set up in that old theater. I have also visited some of the small shops in that area. The KSW school you mention is that of PSN Mike Hill, and he has been here at our annual tournament a number of times (until I left the WKSA:). Anyway, thanks for the info, hopefully we will run into you some day and share a shot of Canadian "snakebite medicine":) Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 11 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Nathaniel_Maras@amp.com.au Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 10:43:11 +1000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Too much emphasis on the use of lethal or crippling force in self defense?? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Craig, I agree with you on your thoughts as described in your post. Here in Australia we have a problem where you are only allowed to use as much force as it takes to 'defend' yourself and thats pretty much it. In many cases it means that one can use an equivalent means to use, such that anything else will be deemed as over use of force etc. Example A. Someone chases you, threatens to kill you at knife point. You are a trained martial artist perhaps holding a high degree black belt in say Hapkido and end up breaking the attackers arm/ wrist. The courts will not be too happy with you because they will assess the situation and say that you had the ability in your training to subdue the attacker and nothing more. Problem is when your in a situation like that, and your life is in the line, I don't think that there are too many people whose techniques might go a little rougher around the edges, or might put a bit of force into it and something as injury to your attacker occur. Most people spend time training, and the best you can do is simulate such instances. However, the real situation is very different - of course this depends on the environment, atmosphere, how your feeling etc. Ie, broad daylight robbery at knife point is different to someone breaking into your house, attacking your family and wanting to kill you. (point is the amount of andrenlin or fear / excitement in your body is different and corresponds to your calmness or ability to think very clearly. Example B. Someone has you at knife point, and you pick up a fence pailing, hitting his hand in order to disable the knife threat. The outcome was in a real case here that the officer in question was thought to be attacking in self defense, but civil libertarian groups put severe pressure on the courts to exersize over use of force, and that the real victim was the attacker. In the end of the day Craig ( I liked your examples), the courts, or communities will look at you, us differently or perhaps in a negative light regardless of the situation to some extent. In the first example, you have been attacked, and there is really only one way out of it. YOur opponents intention is to kill you so its either you or him. Any rational person would suddenly revert to survival skills and your aims is to see the sun shine tomorrow morning. Injury to the opponent is extremely likely and maybe necessary in order to prevent further attack, or perhaps legit as he/she might physically disadvantage you in strength/size and injury might be a means to nuetralise the attack. Its funny. Over here a couple of weeks ago, 4 guys in a stolen car led a police officer down an ambush, pumped 3 rounds into the cruiser, one in the head, two in the chest. He died in hospital. The attackers probably will get no more than 10 years each, and my friend who is an officer said that the prosecution have a higher chance of having them convicted for other offences other than murder etc. I've read countless times in my own area about muggings, stabbings, home invasions where the victims have been either injured or killed and the attackers faced minimal sentences. Its like the courts place zero value on human life. Knowing that if someone attacks me with a knife, gun or barehands, the chances of them wanting to kill me is not something I will gamble on. I will assume its all or nothing and will treat the situation as such. I refuse to allow myself to be a statistic, and let someone rob me of my life. The only most precious thing on this planet to me is my own breath and fvck what the courts, society thinks, because when your six foot under, nothing matters anymore. When the guy who took your life is still walking, enjoying a nice room in medium security facility with food, clothing, shelter at the cost of AU$100,000 a year to the tax payers - its the biggest rort. It is very simple. Its you or them. So craig, if someone, friend or foe poses a threat to your life, deal with it in the manner you see fit and according to your abilities. Personally, I fronted with a situation, I would not hesitate in the least to break arms, legs or the neck of my opponent. I am not a violent man, but I believe that my life is sacred and I will do what ever it means to protect that, even if it results in the death of my attacker. I've studied Hapkido now for 2 years and love it. I truely believe it is a well rounded art and any deficiencies it has is offset by the amount of benefits. I've trained in Wing Chun, Muay Thai before and realised that they were extremely inadequate for a large number of my needs. Many other arts merely adapt techniques of others as their true art is somewhat lacking. I've realised that such arts are of no benefit because techniques, theories and process start to conflict with one another and the end result is something far removed from what the creator had envisaged. I started talking to many people, I then took T'ai Chi and loved that for what it did to my character. I researched and found that I wanted to do an art like Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu. Aikido was close, but I was not to interested in a loving art, and found that Hapkido and Aikido come from the same roots. It was when I learnd that Hapkido inherited the more comprehensive system from Aiki Jujutsu rather than a calmed down version that the Aikido founder passed on did I choose Hapkido. The Hapkido school I go to is run by the Korean Federation and my master is a 7th Dan Black belt in Both Taekwando and Hapkido, his master holding 10th dans in both. Our principle is that rather learning as you mentioned a whole set of techniques based on either belts or gravity it circumstance, we have 10 basic techniques in which you just adapt to the situation. So what can look like an awesome high grade technique from a black belt may appear different to that of a yellow belt, but is actually the same technique/fundamental/theory behind it. Our hapkido is very fluid, however the same technique can be used to love or harm someone as you know. Movements can be swift and abrupt, or long sweeping ones. We train in the traditional sense, advanced breathing exersizes for ki, as well as regulation of the body which is different again. Multiple attacks, weapons, and as well as self defence techniques. It took me a while to find this school, many other hapkido schools even with some with the same emblem have different teaching regimes, some look better than others ,some look terrible. I found one school that did very basic techniques and developed a semi boxing, kickboxing art, but yet they were the hapkido gear? Dunno. The style that my master teaches seems similar to Aikido, however with a dfferent slant on things, that become apparent when you practice against a aikido practioner. I like Aikido, but I prefer Hapkido for its adaptability. Just my two cents. nat This email message and any accompanying attachments may contain information that is confidential and is subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, do not read, use, disseminate, distribute or copy this message or attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this message. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender expressly, and with authority, states them to be the views of AMP. Before opening any attachments, please check them for viruses and defects. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest