Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 16:25:39 -0700 (PDT) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #206 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. The Kanbukan (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 2. Re: guilty until proven innocent (spunkykvf) 3. What is our position with Self defense (J. R. West) 4. KMA Japanese Roots--Why? and Law and Self-Defense (Dunn, Danny J RASA) 5. Personalities (Hapkido Self Defense Center) 6. Re: Decisions, decisions (Luc T. Nguyen) 7. Re: Personalities (Ray Terry) 8. Re: Aikido Clips (Ray Terry) 9. self-defense (Ray Terry) 10. Real progress over NK issue (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:04:14 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] The Kanbukan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce Simms comments on Sells' book: > ".....A study in evolution, Renbukai grew out of a dojo called the "Kanbukan" or Korean > Martial Arts Hall, located in Tokyo. Prior to World War II, a substantial number of Koreans > settled in Tokyo. Many of these attended trade schools, where, in some of them, Shotokan > Karate was taught. It is thought that in this lies the obvious resemblance of early Tae Kwon > Do (the kicking-oriented, Korean equivalent of Karate), in both basics and kata, to Shotokan. > Nevertheless, as for the Kanbukan, a Korean named Geka Yung operated a (sic) training > club. There, individuals from various karate backgrounds met and worked out together. This > went on until 1949 when Yung returned to Korea and training came under the supervision > of Tamae Hiroyasu...." > > Can anyone shed light on this particular institution or its relationship to KMA? Anyone? Yep. I've read the 1940s Kanbukan manual and have pics from that school. The Korean pronunciation of Kanbukan would be Hanmukwan (Han Moo Kwan), and they were closely related to the Chidokwan (Ji Do Kwan). The style looked like Okinawan karate rather than Shotokan karate. In other words, they used higher stances, more power from rising, and also include what looked like some jujutsu work. Again Bruce, the link between Shotokan and TKD (and Kongsudo and Tangsudo) has been well-documented. A good source for this is Ki Hwang (ie. Hwang Kee)'s history of the Muddukwan. By the way Bruce, send me your address again. I still have to get those tapes back to you!! Take care, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 10:26:21 -0700 From: spunkykvf To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: guilty until proven innocent Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Craig writes: > >Should the case go as far as the courts, it is up to the Martial Artist when >claiming self-defense to show that their actions were within reason. The >Martial Artist has to demonstrate that they truly believe that themselves or >other innocent people were in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm >from the aggressor. Martial Artist has to illustrate to the police and the >courts that the level of force used was: first, necessary; second, >appropriate, and third, the Martial Artist either tried to avoid the >confrontation, or did nothing to escalate the level of violence. > Ok, so what happened to innocent until proven guilty? Until we swing thependulum back to victim's have rights not just criminals, we will end up with this preposterous situation. I agree that there are people who are in the MA who go to bars looking to prove themselves, but when attacked by some one who is trying to hurt you and esp bigger or armed, I would have to say that worrying about when to stop is one more thing on the mind that could get the victim killed. How do I know that one kick and 2 punches is enuff? I don't so I go til the person runs away, or is no longer threatening me. However, I have heard of cases where the attacker is on the ground, supposedly out of commission and he draws a gun. Oops, obviously not out of commission. I know that the saying better judged by 12 than carried by 6 holds true, but the victim who ends up in court has been victimized again, with more trauma, as it seems it is only "self defense " without question if the victim tried to fight back but lost. That to me is the scariest thot! > > >But the criminal courts are not the only area of worry for the Martial Artist >when it comes to the law. The assailant, despite being the cause of the >event, could sue the MA, forcing the Martial Artist into civil court and a >legal fight. In today's legal morass, it is frighteningly easy to sue someone >over the most frivolous things. There have been numerous case in which a >criminal, injured while committing a crime, suing the person who injured >them. The fact that these lawsuits are not thrown out at first glance is >troublesome. While it won't lead to time in prison, the civil lawsuit could >end up costing the Martial Artist a significant amount of time, in money, >time, mental stress, and damage to their reputation, all because they reacted >as they had been trained to. > Another farce in our "justice" system. Defend yourself, be acquitted or not even brought to trial and the attacker could sue you. Pleeeeeese! Why aren't those cases getting thrown out?! Now the victim has been attacked, probably injured, and to add insult to injury, he is sued and has to pay big bucks to be defended and hope not to lose. Time to shoot first and then no one left to sue. I think the law should be changed that any lawyer who takes this type of case, suing the victim, if his client loses in court, the lawyer has to pay damages beyond what his client can afford. That way, if the client has no money to pay his own losses, his lawyer has to make up the difference. I think we would see a lot less of these types of cases, b/c the attorney would have a financial commitment and might just no take such ridiculous cases. Spunky --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "J. R. West" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:45:11 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] What is our position with Self defense Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This stuff is VERY interesting reading, and I have learned a lot from digesting various viewpoints presented here on the DD, but let me throw some of my experiences out in front of you. When I left the civilian population of the US of A, in 1965, the only place that "karate" was mentioned was on the back of comic books, and there virtually NO MA schools available anywhere outside of the most major of cities. When I returned from VietNam in 1970, I was told by EVERYONE I knew that I was going to have to "register my hands" as lethal weapons wherever I settled. Being young (26) and stupid, I listened to all this nonsense, and when I moved to Lowndes County, MS, one of the first things I did was to make my way to the county courthouse to see the sheriff and get some advice as to how to go about getting legal. I walked into a room filled with a large, loud man in a Smokey-the-Bear hat and mirrored shades. When I told him why I was there, I thought he was going to explode, he laughed so hard. When this caricature of a southern sheriff regained his composure, I was informed to get my happy ass out of his building, because he had enough problems with rednecks armed with knives and guns to worry about some fool kid with some karate tricks. Several years ago, I had a student that was a formal federal judge, and a VERY well known criminal lawyer in our area, and I asked him if he could explain to me exactly how I would differ from any other "man in the street" when it came to my response to a perceived threat. After much reading, researching and talking to some friends of his that sat on our State Supreme Court. he decided that we, as instructors, have no more liability than the next guy, and the only thing that could change that would be if we made a living or a partial living by pummeling the citizenry for money or other rewards, that is, full contact fights for a purse, bodyguard work, or something of that type. It seems that we fit in the same status a Yoga instructors and Aerobics instructors....Nice Huh? Another ancient rumor was that we, as black belts, were required to carry identification (ah yes!, the famous blue card) stating such, and that before we used any physical force, we had to either present the card to our assailant, or advise him of our identity and status. What nonsense!!!!!....J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 13:13:27 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] KMA Japanese Roots--Why? and Law and Self-Defense Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, FWIW, you may be looking for too deep a motive. Hwang Kee, who founded, as you know, what was one of the first successful open schools in SK after WWII and that became one of the largest and most influential kwans wrote that he first began teaching an art he called Hwa Soo Do which was as I understand it a mix of traditional Korean with some Chinese Art. He basically went broke because he couldn't get any students. It wasn't until he was forced to go back to the drawing board and began teaching a cirriculum that was based on Japanese forms that he was able to develop a successful business. So the reason may lie with an attitude of the masses and the economic realities of supplying something the market wants so they could put food on the table. As for Gen Choi introducing TKD into the military, if I recall correctly, he was already a high ranking officer, and arranged demos for his instructor's school, Chung Do Kwan(?) before the military and civilian leadership. That is how he got permission to institute martial training into the military. I'm doing this from memory, but i believe at the time he was relatively low ranked, maybe 2nd dan. The question may be, why did Choi choose to train at Chung Do Kwan in the first place, along with all those other people that chose the major Japanese root schools. Why did he not look for or choose some traditional Korean system teacher if they were there and practicing? I also believe I have heard from more than one source that many Korean military instructors were trained in arts other than Chung Do Kwan. However it all comes across from Choi as Oh Do Kwan (My Way)TKD through the filter of time and personality. <<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bruce, Actually we are all subject to the same laws Bruce, or at least the same laws if we are in the same political boundaries in the US. The only thing different in the way law enforcement is viewed under the law is that it is recognized that they have to be there and may have to take an action against someone that may result in a personal attack on them. This may also change things a little if you live in an area where you are required to retreat if possible or that you can not use force to protect property. But in personal self-defense you are justified under the law in using the amount of force that is reasonably necessary to defend yourself. I believe that the majority of people in our society are self-delusional because it is hard to think about getting hurt or killed or that happening to someone you love, and the possibility of having to hurt or kill someone to protect yourself. Its easier to put it into a neat box, the police are here to protect us so we don't have to do it ourselves. We can rely on them. From there, it is a short step to we should rely on them, followed by we must rely on them. Laws and the interpretation of laws tends to follow the majority opinion in any society. This attitude has lead us to the point that we are not responsible for protecting ourselves. And to the no one is responsible for what they do, its always someone elses fault for doing it to them litigious society we are today. I'll give you that police are peace keepers, but they have that job and recognized role. Don't equate self-defense with peace keeping. Its not. I can tell you that I have had no intention of peace keeping when I had to defend myself and I wasn't trying to keep the peace. My only thought was ending the confrontation as quickly as possible. I didn't want to find out why, care who the person was, or care about taking him in for the justice system to deal with. Just some thoughts on a rainy Friday morning. I'll climb down now. Danny Dunn <<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" To: Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 14:56:46 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Personalities Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray, many of my students have met Dr. Kimm and they were looking forward to it! They have attended classes with people such as Master West, Master Timmerman, Master Booth, etc., and even met the GREAT Ray Terry! Bruce Sims once taught a children's class at my dojang and they loved it (he may deny this)! Although my students have not let me live down that the v-neck top left in one piece. But there is always August... Jere R. Hilland www.geocities.com/hapkiyukwonsul <<>> --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Luc T. Nguyen" To: Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 14:58:03 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Decisions, decisions Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Bruce, > One point is that traditional arts such as Ssireum and Taek Kyon > still existed after WW II albeit in a weakened condition where > TKD and TSD needed to be formulated. For my money, a combination > of rising nationalism and reassertion of traditions should have > favored the existing arts and worked against the reformulation of > an alien art, yes? > > Another point that doesn't get adequately explained is who were > the people who were making these decisions and how did they come > to be in influential positions? By this I mean--- using Gen Choi, > for instance--- > how did he come to find himself an army general after WW II and > why did he choose to press the idea of teaching Karate to the > Korean military instead of Taek Kyon? Korea has always been > traditionally aligned with its Chinese neighbor and where the > Japanese had Judo and ju-jutsu the Chinese had Shiao Chiao and > Chin Na. Where the Japanese had Karate the Chinese has Chuan Fa. > Why select an activity from the losing side of the war and a > long-standing oppressor? FWIW. Why do lots of Americans "select an activity from the losing side of the war and a long-standing oppressor?" (e.g., Japan) to spend evenings, nights and weekends on? If we use your argument in another context, I don't think it flies very well. For example do you think that it is wrong for Koreans to import Japanese cars? or for Koreans to use Sony appliances? It is not because they were fighting at one time, anything and everything the other side does become bad. Everybody agrees that KMA in its present form is heavily influenced by JMA. But we also agree that KMA is also somewhat influenced by Taek Kyon, and Chin Na, etc. The degrees of influence of the various arts on KMA depend on the persons and the circumstances. As MAs become more and more commercialized, the degrees of influences become a supply and demand thing: What sell? and what can be sold? There are at least 3 dojangs within 5 miles of where I am right now in Atlanta that has Karate on the store front but actually teach TKD inside. May be the art of Karate is a better known than that of TKD?? This is true now as it must be true then especially if Taek Kyon had been banned for many years in Korea under Japanese occupation? I think that we have to give a lot of credits to General Choi, and the many Koreans MA personalities who took what best of JMA, add what they know of from the old Taek Kyon, and Chin Na, etc., to create the current KMA. Back to lurking, Luc Nguyen --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Personalities To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 13:09:12 PDT Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Ray, many of my students have met Dr. Kimm and they were looking forward to > it! They have attended classes with people such as Master West, Master > Timmerman, Master Booth, etc., and even met the GREAT Ray Terry! Bruce Sims > once taught a children's class at my dojang and they loved it (he may deny > this)! Lucky students... > Although my students have not let me live down that the v-neck top > left in one piece. But there is always August... Unlucky Ray... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Aikido Clips To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 13:27:11 PDT Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I guess it would be alot easier to view the clips if I gave you the url, > huh?... I have some very old video footage of O'Sensei U. mixed in with some of him as we typically see him, old, thin, white beard, etc. The older footage seems to come from perhaps the late 1930s. What is seen there is probably more of the Aiki-Budo he was teaching around that time, i.e. prior to his enlightenment and his creation of Aikido. Much more typical stuff. There are fun parts where he makes ~22 people fall down at once, but mostly him showing a technique then sitting back in seiza(sp?) and watching the students do it, repeat as needed. Of course at the beginning of the tape is footage from the early/mid 60s with him waving his hand and ~22 people fall down. Yes, looks rather strange. FWIW, and probably not much, but... A friend is/was a 2nd Dan in Aikido. A good ole boy, one that I could trust. A friend of his that he felt similarly about had the chance to 'attack' Ueshiba at a demo/seminar/whatever. He said it was the strangest thing... as he approached Ueshiba to grab him he said it seemed that he had walked into a light blue fog. He was very disoriented, didn't know where he was or why he was there, and then he noticed he was on the mat. He got up, tried to attack Ueshiba once again, and again the blue fog rolled in. Me? I'm still working on that blue fog technique. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 13:57:27 PDT Subject: [The_Dojang] self-defense Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just a mention of something that Marc "Animal" MacYoung mentioned recently over on our Eskrima list... We frequently are not attacked by a complete stranger, it is often someone we know and just as often someone we've had an encounter with before. The point being a fight may not begin with the first punch, it may actually begin days or weeks or months prior to that. All this can come into play as you attempt to defend yourself in a court of law for breaking some poor fellow's arm that was silly enough to throw a punch at your twice broken nose. What preceeded that attack on you? Did you bring it upon yourself? Perhaps all somewhat silly things to consider to some, but not always so silly to the county's Prosecuting Attorney. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 17:01:28 PDT Subject: [The_Dojang] Real progress over NK issue Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Real Progress Resumes Over NK Issue April 12, 2002 JEJU ISLAND -- Three men, each of whom played a pivotal role in inter-Korean relations from the 1990s to the present, summed up recent inter-Korean developments positively and carefully expressed hope for further developments in crucial North Korea-U.S. ties at the Jeju Peace Forum on Friday (April 12). "There is reason to be hopeful that real progress has resumed on this critical problem of enhancing ties between the U.S. and North Korea," said former North Korea policy coordinator William Perry in a keynote speech entitle "Reflections on Peace, Security, and a New World Order After Sept 11." "Such progress is important, not only for its obvious effect on regional security, but because of its critical effect on worldwide arms proliferation, which is a key part of our efforts to deal with terrorism" he said. As the U.S. secretary of defense during the Clinton administration, Perry recalled how Washington averted a nuclear crisis on the peninsula in 1994 with the Agreed Framework and again in 1998, when a crisis caused by the North's test-firing of long-range missiles was resolved by the Policy Review. "The nuclear weapons issue is something that the U.S. considers more seriously now than it did in 1994 or 1998," Perry said in a press conference later, adding that the existence of inter-Korean dialogue reduces the danger significantly. "I am neither an optimist nor a pessimist," Seoul's presidential advisor for national security and unification Lim Dong-won said, when asked if he was not being overtly optimistic in his views on North Korea. "North Korean leader Kim Jong-il told me that North Korea's top priority lies in normalizing ties with the U.S., and said positively that he would reopen dialogue," he added. Lim, as President Kim Dae-jung's point man on North Korea policy, secured a 10-point agreement during his visit to Pyeongyang last week as a special envoy. Pyeongyang agreed to normalize inter-Korean relations and restart talks with Washington. Former U.S. ambassador to Korea Donald Gregg, who also came back from his visit to North Korea this week, said the North's willingness to abide by the Agreed Framework and restart negotiations was genuine. "I told the North Koreans that the U.S. is different now, with the war taking place. Also, President Bush is different from President Clinton," he said. The North Korean officials responded by saying that if the U.S. spoke more politically and refrained from verbal assaults on its leader and governmental system, they'd be more interested in dialogue, he said. Some 300 North Korea experts and journalists convened at the Jeju Peace Forum, discussing peace-related issues on the Korean peninsula and Northeast Asia. The event was hosted by the Jeju provincial government and Jeju National University, at the Jeju Grand Hotel, and concludes on Saturday. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest