Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 06:09:09 -0700 (PDT) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #237 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: O Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Travel Stuff (Bruce Sims) 2. Re: That "verbosity" arguement doesn't work anymores (Bruce Sims) 3. Bruce's World (michael tomlinson) 4. Re: Bruce's ego (Tom Kennelly) 5. Re: Back home (Laurie S.) 6. Re: Folks like Bruce at seminars (JSaportajr@aol.com) 7. Re: Bruce Sims and Gm Ji Seminar (blueknightpi@att.net) 8. Re: I think I have seen this movie before (Jesse Segovia) 9. Naihanchi and chulgi (Nathan Miller) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 18:11:27 -0500 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Travel Stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: ".....Received via smail mail. The English language version of the URL below is http://prkorea.com/estart.html....." Thanks for the recent posting from the Korean Tourist people. For about the last 5 years or so, Dr. Kimm, GM Seo and several other personalities seem to draw a lot of attention by offering (for want of a better label) "martial arts packages." These packages kind of remind me of the ten day bus tour of the UK Kathy and I took a couple of years back. The idea of the tour was to hit a few, but notable sites, get our pictures taken at all the right places and have plenty of time to shop the tourist areas. I mention this because I know that other folks offer much more "in-depth" tours which usually focus on a particular location or activity and sort of tailor the visit a bit. I wonder if you have heard of anyone who might offer such options--- for Korea, not the UK. :-) Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 18:20:14 -0500 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: That "verbosity" arguement doesn't work anymores Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Dave: Since you apparently haven't been keeping up on current events I would mention that information-by-sound-bite is pretty much what has gotten KMA generally, and Hapkido in particular into its present fix. For a variety of reasons most people don't ask pertinent questions. Ones ones who ask questions usually get no answer, or are handed the "company line." Those who don't like the company line are either shouted down, censored, and/or derided. I have not been able to find that authorization in Korean culture that pools authority and wisdom in the hands of an elite few. However, this may be a great occasion wherein if I elect to say less, perhaps you could be persuaded to say more. You like things suscinct; I like things authentic. Maybe there is a middle ground here somewhere. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 00:50:13 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Bruce's World Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net As a matter of fact Bruce I would hope Doju Nim Ji is proud of me,, I have never attended any training in my life and left early or failed to complete whatever task was laid in front of me during those training events, regardless of the subject matter or training,, I guess we are two different kind of birds, I personally take pride in being able to shut off my ego and learn new things I also take extreme pride in being able to put the physical rubber on the road when the need arises, I guess it is just me but when I see someone who is keen to criticize something that they couldn't even finish themselves then I pretty much get the whole picture of your actual training and more then that your actual internal fortitude, I am a teacher by trade and this whole thing reminds me of beggining students I have had that seem to have it all figured out "before" they actually know anything. The funny thing is is that people who have done Hapkido for a very long time actually see the simple truth of Doju Nim Ji's techniques,, but then again you have to actually be able to make it thru the training to see that. Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Tom Kennelly" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Bruce's ego Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 21:12:18 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I will agree with only the first of the three you listed. The others do not add to the discussion but have a decidedly negative tone. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Welker" To: "Never be afraid or unwilling to learn something new..." Ray Terry "Maybe more practice and less cerebral masturbation is in order." Michael Tomlinson "Don't go away mad Bruce, just go away." Rick Nabors --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Laurie S." To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 21:41:52 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Back home Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Welcome home, Ray :o) I just wanna say that I'm glad to see ya back and healthy (almost). Get plenty of rest, and you'll be back to normal soon :o) Laurie _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 22:13:50 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Folks like Bruce at seminars Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This is not about Bruce's post, which I don't have a problem with. I think that AFTER a seminar it is appropriate to post and share ones impressions about a seminar or a well known master on a discussion list such as this one, even if they are critical. You can take or leave his observations. But, this is about Bruce's comportment AT the seminar, as it has been described to me. Bruce's experience at the seminar reminds me of a Zen parable that everyone probably knows but I will summarize for those who don't. A man seeks out a Zen Master in order to learn more about Zen. The Master invites the visitor to tea. The visitor goes on and on about what he knows about Zen, what the different schools are, etc. The Zen Master smiles and begins to pour the visitor's tea. The cup overflows with tea and the Master keeps pouring and tea is flowing off the table onto the floor, when the visitor exclaims, " Why do you keep pouring in tea, the cup is full!" The Master says, "Exactly'" and gets up and leaves. Ive never met Ji Han Jae or been to his seminar, though I plan to in a couple of weeks. I am 45 and I have been training in martial arts since I was 16. Whenever I go to seminars I first of all do everything everyone does, I do not take any more breaks than anyone or do any fewer kicks. If it is an art where I do not hold rank, I leave my black belt at home and put on a white belt. And I would never, ever, ever have the audacity to criticize or comment on or correct to others such as my partner on what the master is teaching or how he is teaching it when I am at the master's seminar, or to even comment on how the master's technique is different from the way I teach it or do it. Never. Not only if a master is teaching the seminar, but if anyone is teaching the seminar, even lower rank than me, its his or her seminar and I am a guest. My understanding is that Bruce even had to be politely asked to "shut up" at this seminar. If I disagree with what a seminar leader is doing, or if it is different from how I understand the technique, I don't have to practice it later, and I may comment to my peers back at my school on my disagreement. But at the seminar I keep my mouth shut. I cannot STAND going to seminars and seeing someone standing on the side lines then comming on the mat and correcting or disagreeing or commenting on the teacher's manner of executing a technique, and I have seen this several times. The importance of keeping one's mouth shut is especially important with Korean Masters, they generally do not like and distrust people who talk too much. In fact I once gave a Korean man a ride home from a tournament. He was a 9th dan in taekwondo and an acupuncturist and meditation teacher. I was exited about sharing my interest in eastern philosophy. At the end of the ride he told me out right, "You talk too much." I felt quite hurt and humiliated. Riding an hour and a half alone with this man in silence made me anxious and I felt that if he talked more I wouldn't have. But I learned a good lesson. Ji HanJae (whom I've never met) deserves great respect and deference, whether or not his technique or manner of teaching is disappointing. Why? 1) he is significantly elder in years. 2) his history and extent of experience in martial arts are way beyond what anyone on this list can claim and his contribution to the arts has been significant. In both these ways he is way Senior to anyone on this list. And, 3) he has walked the walk and not just talked the talk. When Ji Han Jae was a young teacher of Hapkido in Korea, they did not challenge him intellectually on Internet discussion lists. They would walk into his dojang and challenge him. And to defend his reputation he would have to take the challenge. I know this from people who were there. Bruce, have you ever been actually challenged and had to fight a challenger in your life? I am not saying that it's right to make such a challenge or defend one's name in this way ( I wouldn't do either), but in Korea at the time when Ji Han Jae was a young hapkido teacher, beginning to make a name for himself, this was how things were done. He had to prove himself in this way. This guy has paid his dues and deserves our respect and deference whether you like him or not. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: blueknightpi@att.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 02:19:11 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Bruce Sims and Gm Ji Seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net While I wasn't at the seminar that Bruce has panned, I have been to seminars with GM Ji and always felt that I wanted more time on the mat with him, not less. I cannot fathom the motivation that would lead someone to presume to give him a performance appraisal, but apparently Bruce has one. Vic Cushing --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 22:37:03 -0400 From: Jesse Segovia Organization: Elanza To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: I think I have seen this movie before Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce wrote: > 6.) As far as the pictures go, GM Ji got the best of the deal. I hope that he appreciates that he had the honor of sharing the frame with at least one BB and a bunch of gueppies who expended a whole lot more effort than HE ever did. Mmmm, not to dog pile or anything, but can I ask if I'm reading this correctly? Are you saying that GM Ji HanJae should feel honored that he got to have his picture taken with Bruce Sims? I think it's too bad you had a bad experience at a seminar, but I think I'm getting the same impression others have, not that you simply had a disappointing seminar, but that you're bad mouthing GM Ji. Am I incorrect? By the way, what is KMA? Is that just Korean martial arts in general or is it a specific organization? Jesse --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Nathan Miller" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 06:02:37 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Naihanchi and chulgi Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It is my understanding that Funakoshi altered Naihanchi from its high, toes inward stance (often called the naihanchi stance) to a low, wide, toes forward or out stance (horse stance), and renamed the kata tekki, meaning "iron horse." When the various Korean Kwan founders gave their forms, learned from Funakoshi or students of Funakoshi, Korean names, tekki became chulgi, meaning essentially the same thing, much the way heian became pyong an, bassai became pal sek (or bal sek, depending on the romanization). As an aside, does anyone have a good translation of pal sek/bassai? I've seen "storming the fortress" before. Tang Soo Do calls this form pal che, "greatest of the great" or something along those lines. Any known reason for this? Yours in the Martial Arts, Nathan _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest