Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 16:58:14 -0700 (PDT) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #242 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Forms/Hyung/Kata Stuff (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 2. RE: From the "techniques never before seen" File (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 3. RE: Not yer Lampoons' "Vacation" (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 4. Re:Effective Training (Bruce Sims) 5. RE: Grace under Fire (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 6. RE: Setting Goals stuff (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 7. Re: Duk Sung Son (Ray Terry) 8. RE: Re: ITF expulsions (Wallace, John) 9. Half staff (Ray Terry) 10. Re:Son Duk-sung (J. R. West) 11. questions about Korean Han Pul (Kevin) 12. Re: am i just a freak? (ChunjiDo@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 09:13:17 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Forms/Hyung/Kata Stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Mac: ".....In the Japanese and Korean styles I've studied, I've always called it Bassai. I do know some of the TKD styles call it Pal-sek. It was originally called Naifanchen. Koreans do not have the "f" sound... so becomes Naihanchi/naihanji....." I don't know what the Korean names are, but I think you might have gotten a couple of wires twisted. Bassai-- "to breach a fortress"--- (aka Bassai Dai; aka Passai--- Korean "Ba Sa Hee Hyung") is a very well known kata imported by the Japanese from the Okinawan traditions. John Sells, in his excellent history (UNANTE- SECRETS OF KARATE {ISBN: 0-910704-96-1} lists some 16 versions of the kata which just about gives every mainline style of Okinawa-te/Karate a version of their own with the Matsumura version probably being the oldest. Matsumura, Sokon (aka "Bushi Matsumura") was born about 1797. Before that there is no indication that the kata existed and may have been derived or standardized from some local material such as an informal or "village" kata. The other possiblity is that, as sometimes happened, the kata came from material introduced from the Chinese mainland, but later fell into disuse in Chinese schools. Personally I think this is a bit unlikely, but noone has been able to identify Bassai in Chinese material. Naifanchi is sorta in the same boat. Naifanchi-- "sideways fighting" or "inside fighting" (aka Naihanchi, aka TEKKI 1,2,3---Korean "Naihanji Hyung"). This is another kata that goes back to Matsumura, and there is some body of evidence that suggests that he may have actually developed it himself. However, in fairness there are at least three Chinese locations, Fujian, Guangdong Province and Taiwan who have Forms ("Daipochin" for instance) that are very similar. In fact, I was watching a video tape this weekend from the WAH LUM Temple in Orlando and was struck by some similarities in body motion to NFC. I would have included the Henan Shaolin Temple but their material has been so compromised in the name of commertialism (to wit: "We invented everything") its almost impossible not to supect the material was introduced to that location at a later date. The biggest arguement about NFC is whether it was expected to be executed as a single long kata or split into three. My money is on the single long kata--- but then I have been accused of getting off on self-abuse. :-) Anyone who wants some really interesting thoughts on biomechanics of this kata and some VERY intersting thoughts on grappling applications has to get a copy of Johnsons' BAREFOOT ZEN. BTW: I discovered that before OS Itosu invented the Pinan kata, NFC was actually the first--- the most basic kata-- that students learned. "Believe it or not." ;-) Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 08:17:49 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: From the "techniques never before seen" File Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: "....... This unique training method has been passed down secretly for more than 15,000 years, some say, by countless sages who lived amidst the mountains in Korea. However, since none have left behind their names or any other written material, the origin and history of GiCheon remains something of a mystery....." Hmmm. 15,000 years, eh? Well, lets see thats about 9,000 years before the first recorded date (4646BC) in the Fertile Crescent. Are you sure its not 15,500 years? How about 17,000 years? And if this is suppose to be so beneficial, why keep it a secret? My guess is that if this is a great source of health and rejuvenation folks would have spread this to all corners of the World. Or--- is it possible that like many of the MA the actual origins are a whole lot more recent and it just gives folks a warm, fuzzy feeling to say that they are practicing something that has survived 15,000 years? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 14:32:37 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Not yer Lampoons' "Vacation" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Alain: OK. Heres' my fantasy. One month. Three small groups (about 5-10) in each group. The groups are rotated among three disparate arts of KMA, or perhaps three varied versions of a particular art. The group trains right along with the Korean students and are sheparded by an instructor from that style or school for the week. At the end of the week, the three groups rotate schools.Room and Board could be coordinated through the larger University facilities. At the end of the third week students may return to the school of their choice for the last week, or join-in on a standard overview of cultural material including persons, places and things coordinated by the Korean Culture folks. "To dream the Impossible Dream..." (everybody sing along). Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 14:00:01 -0500 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:Effective Training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Michael: "......I think the number one thing a technique should have over everything else is no nonsense effectiveness!! Everything else is just window dressing........" I couldn't agree with you more. For my part I extend that belief to include the effect I have upon myself, my family, friends and community and not just on some errant knave who has crossed my path. You are absolutely correct. Without no-nonsense effect on the World in which I live everything else IS truely window dressing. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 08:02:30 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Grace under Fire Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Randall: "Let's discuss this. I'll admit that Mr. Hilland is pretty...I mean his techniques are! Should we aim for grace and beauty or really effective techniques or is the aim the one and same? Taiji for example, looks pretty in training but in actual application (other than those taught by new age teachers), it is very fast and nasty with lots of joint locks, palm strikes and eye strikes, etc......." Absolutely. I think discussion would help a lot. First off, I don't think that grace and effectiveness are mututally exclusive anymore than you do. In fact, Randall, I would have used TCC, specifically Chen TCC as an excellent example, too. I am not suggesting that we go the way of some of the Aikido groups. What I am suggesting is that it is very possible that when fluidity and grace are not encouraged as part of the mix, students rely on muscle and size too much. There are three levels of Hapkido, just like there are three levels of DRAJJ. If the whole focus of whats being done is no more than busting someone up, Level One (Sool / Jutsu) well and good. But I tend to believe that Hapkido has a lot of aspects that get short-shrift because everyone is way too interested in enjoying the power of bouncing people on the mat. In this way, WHAT they are doing takes precedence over HOW they are doing it. This is another one of those issues that folks don't seem to want to talk about. Maybe its not macho enough. Maybe its too intellectual. But I still think its worth discussing, and teaching. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 09:36:11 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Setting Goals stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear David: I think we have all pretty much agreed here not to use titles and such, so please feel free to call me "Bruce". On the other hand, I've heard you use the censorship/derision/"company line" complaint often enough to wonder if it might be a negative attitude problem (built up from years of getting the same response) that might be keeping you from getting the answers you seek......" I'd have to think on this a bit, but as I write this right now, I can't say much about that one way or the other. I know that pressing the position that KMA is a whole lot more AND a whole lot less than what its represented as takes its toll after a while. Nobody died and left me in charge, so this is not a Messianic Thing. My fundamental position is that the present generation of KMA practitioners could be doing a whole lot more to further the nature and quality of these traditions than they are. For me, thats the Hapkido arts. I noticed where the ITF just tossed out some members and still have that whole M Choi thing to address. And then there is the WTF/ITF antagonisms. And then there is the lack of accurate historical information. The list goes on. Of course, this pre-supposes that folks are INTERESTED in improving things for the generation to follow. I am learning that there are not just a few people who like their things just the way they are (ie. "I know what I believe, don't confuse me with the facts."). I am thinking that I can summarize my position with a para-phrase of that old saw about "ships ride well at anchor, but they are built for the open sea." Of course, the poet was talking about the development of an individuals' character, but I think the same holds true for the KMA. You can leave your KMA ship at anchor and let it dry rot from under you or you can take it out for regular spins around the harbor by training. In either case, you need to be looking into hatches, replacing lines, caulking and so forth. Nobody usually stresses maintanence when they sell you the boat, but it comes with the territory. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Duk Sung Son To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 14:47:51 PDT Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Can anyone tell me anything about the training of Duk Sung Son, and in > particular the Kwan he originally belonged to in Korea. He is the senior > author of "Korean Karate, the art of tae kwon do". He is Chung Do Kwan. You'll find several references to him in the Modern History of Taekwondo. Find it off http://martialartsresource.com. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Wallace, John" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: ITF expulsions Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 13:56:34 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net No doubt they're associated with the North American ITF faction and the Vienna faction is formally kicking them out. -JW (unaffiliated) -----Original Message----- From: ChunjiDo@aol.com [mailto:ChunjiDo@aol.com] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 10:43 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ITF expulsions <> any reasoning for this? just curious. melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy http://www.cjmaa.com Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.cjmas.com Toll Free: 1-877-847-4072 Proud Sponsor of the 2001 10th Annual US Open TKD Championships _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type application/x-pkcs7-signature which had a name of smime.p7s] --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net, the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 14:53:24 PDT Subject: [The_Dojang] Half staff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >FLAGS TO BE FLOWN AT HALF-STAFF ON "PEACE OFFICERS MEMORIAL DAY" > >The National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund has issued a >reminder to all police and other governmental agencies, as well as to >businesses and private citizens across the country that all flags of >the United States are to be flown at half-staff on May 15, "Peace >Officers Memorial Day." > >In 1994, the U.S. Congress and then President Bill Clinton approved the law, >P.L. 103-322, requiring the American flag to be lowered to half-staff on >May 15 as a special tribute to the more than 15,000 law enforcement officers >who have died in the line of duty. The law was spearheaded by then-U.S. Rep. >John Porter at the request of the Memorial Fund. > >"This is one of the highest honors our nation can bestow upon >anyone," observed Memorial Fund chairman Craig W. Floyd. "It is also >an honor that is richly deserved. Last year, 228 law enforcement >officers were killed in the line of duty, making it the deadliest >year for the law enforcement profession since 1975. Included in this >total are 70 officers who died at the World Trade Center on September >11, the most officers ever to be killed in a single incident in the >history of our nation. When we lower our flags on Peace Officers >Memorial Day we will be recognizing that those brave men and women >died upholding our laws and preserving public safety." --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "J. R. West" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 16:43:35 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:Son Duk-sung Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If my memory serves me correctly, Master Son is a member of the Kuk Mu Kwan, and was under Lee Won Kuk of the Chung Do Kwan....J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 16:41:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Kevin To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] questions about Korean Han Pul Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi I am a Korean American interested in the art of Han Pul. There are very few sites on Han Pul, and I was wondering if anyone could give me some information such as stylistic focuses or just some web site links. Thank you all for your time! LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 19:49:53 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: am i just a freak? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> hi greg... although you may still be a freak...i dont know :)....that's the approach i'm most agreeable with. i believe its true that the domestic situation is more prominent than "stranger danger". however, stranger attacks still happen and the chances of it happening do increase, too. so...yes, i throw in the boogie man to accompany the domestic situation. i teach the minimum amount of force to get yourself to safety. i also teach to be like alain's cat fluffy at bath time if it comes to that. get away. i was talking (emailing) with illona earlier about a topic she'd sent me on how american's have becoming so comfortable that we ignore danger and think, even globally, that "it" cant happen to "us". whether "it" is a rape, domestic violence, terrorist attack, whatever. whether "us" is me and my family, or me and my countrymen. we tend to be a bit oblivious and live in the fantasy that all will be ok... until something does happen. i mentioned to illona, as i've probably mentioned here before, that there was one instance while working as a private investigator doing surveillance that that whole previous paragraph really hit home for me. i was crouched between two cars in a parking garage for a couple hours. i wasnt well hidden. anyone who happened to look to their right or left would see me. i sat there and watched countless individuals walk and drive by and not a one even looked in my direction. oblivious. comfortable. we dont need to scare ourselves, looking like a wide eyed doe everytime we venture out into the world. we just need to be aware and be cautious and be willing to defend ourselves if need be. i think this goes way beyond your question...lol....sorry :). i digress.... melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy http://www.cjmaa.com Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.cjmas.com Toll Free: 1-877-847-4072 Proud Sponsor of the 2001 10th Annual US Open TKD Championships --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest