Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:58:22 -0700 (PDT) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #245 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: O Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Han Pul Stuff (Bruce Sims) 2. Re: KJN Duk Sung Son (Tom Kennelly) 3. Re: Bruces' "Way-Back Machine" (Bruce Sims) 4. just dressing huh? (Steve Kincade) 5. Re: Hyung up on Kata (Bruce Sims) 6. links (Harris, Mark) 7. Dressing (michael tomlinson) 8. Re: KJN Duk Sung Son (Tom Kennelly) 9. Re: How old are Kata/Forms really?(was Naihanchi) (JSaportajr@aol.com) 10. RE: Scare Tactics Stuff (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 11. GM Duk Sung Son and TKD/TSD (Woodard Brian (ChW/TEF8)) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 10:06:27 -0500 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Han Pul Stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ".... Hi I am a Korean American interested in the art of Han > Pul. ....." HI! Couldn't find your name but I thought you would intersted to know that an article on HAN PUL was published in either BLACK BELT magazine or TKD TIMES quite a few months back. At the time it identified on one such school in the US-- in California (what were the chances of THAT happening! ;-) ). Despite it being a post-WW II reconstruction, Dr Kimm seems to hold the position in his Hapkido history that Han Pul may be the best represntation of what pre-WW II KMA may have looked like, or perhaps I am reading more into his words than he intended. If you are intersted in the article I can dig it out and cite the pub, date and pgs. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Tom Kennelly" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] KJN Duk Sung Son Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:42:49 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I believe he was the 2nd GM of Chung Do Kwan after Lee Won Kuk. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Richards" To: "Dojang Digest" Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 9:26 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] KJN Duk Sung Son Can anyone tell me anything about the training of Duk Sung Son, and in particular the Kwan he originally belonged to in Korea. He is the senior author of "Korean Karate, the art of tae kwon do". Thanks, Danny Dunn He is Chung Do Kwan. You'll find several references to him in the Modern History of Taekwondo. Find it off http://martialartsresource.com. If my memory serves me correctly, Master Son is a member of the Kuk Mu Kwan,and was under Lee Won Kuk of the Chung Do Kwan....J. R. West www.hapkido.com Master Dunn, My seniors gave you the answer I would have. Duk Sung Son is a student of Lee Won Kuk, and I believe at one point successor GM, and senior to my first GM Jhoon Rhee. Depending on when the book was written (pre 1973?, or pre 1961?) and based on the tittle "Korean Karate." It is probably a good recorded reference of Lee Won Kuk's Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo Do of circa 1944, and should be an excellent addition to us TSD players' library. Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TangSooDo LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 10:44:17 -0500 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Bruces' "Way-Back Machine" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: ".....I postulate that Naihanchi is perhaps the oldest Karate-ish kata/hyung/poomse/form still being actively taught and practiced today. Hwang Kee claims it originated about 900 years ago....." After getting banged around a bit of late I am probably a bit gun-shy but I have to say that there is no documentation supporting GM Hwang Kees' assertion. If the time frame you are using ("900 years") is an accurate quote GM's assertion would place his source at about 1100AD. Frankly anything before the Mongol Invasion of China and the establishment of the Yuan Dynasty (lasting until 1368) is pretty much anybodys' guess. The Mongols were pretty repressive, and most of the training either went into obscure places or became part of the entertainment scene (the Yuan dyn had a pretty rich focus on the Play, novel and poetry, if you can believe it.) However, there are a few things to consider. One point is that when the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) came into being after the the Yuan were kicked out, there was quite a revival in things "Chinese" (Han). One major focus was the military sciences. By the time Gen Qi, Ji-Huang (d. 1587) got around to organizing and writing his military manual for training his corp of pirate-fighters, he lists 16 major styles of Chinese Boxing from which he took his material ("Shaolin" was conspicuous in its absence). Perhaps some precursor to the form which would become NAIFANCHI might have been around then. Another point is that as part of its initial moves towards securing its borders, the Ming Dyn is documented as having sent "36 Families" to Okinawa as an embassy to the Okinawan culture. Tradition suggests that among the embassy were military, and well-educated individuals who could have been schooled in Chuan Fa. The mixture of their skills with the indigenous "te" is thought to have produced "to-de" and subsequent mixture of Chinese material during the 18th century produced the beginnings of Okinawa-te (later to become Karate). Still there is only oral tradition to support any of the earlier assertions. Finally, there are the Koreans (Remember them?). Tradition holds that the the ancestor of the Yi Dyn defeated the Wako--- "Japanese Pirates" and used the popularity of his success, in part, to propel him toward the Korean crown. It could, then, be likely that escaping Wako-- who were in fact most probably neither "Japanese" OR "pirates"-- could have escaped south and established a colony in Okinawa. These ex-pats--most of whom would have been from the Korean and Shandong Prov area could have brought material and MA skills with them from their experiences in raiding Korean and Chinese port areas. I am currently reading 1587- A YEAR OF NO SIGNIFICANCE and OKINAWA- A HISTORY OF AN ISLAND PEOPLE and will let you know if I find anything more on this. As it is, though, I wouldn't put too much stock in anything prior to 1693 and the arrival of "Ku Shan KU" to Okinawa. Hes' the guy the kata is based on and even THAT is hazy stuff. ("Sorry, GM") Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Steve Kincade" To: Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 10:51:49 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] just dressing huh? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Klaas Barends writes: What about the guy who just practices blocking a side kick for three years? :) As the old saying goes, "If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to look at every problem as a nail." --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:20:49 -0500 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Hyung up on Kata Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Gary: ".....from Tang Soo Do, the ultimate guide to the Korean martial art by Grand Master Kang Uk Lee. "Naihanji Hyung was devised 950 years ago, during the era of the Song Dynasty, by the founder of the Kang WooRyu school of martial arts.'.... " I don't know, Gary. This is the same guy who cites the HISTORY OF KORYO, which was written in the 13th or 14th century, as a resource for conclusions about what could have happened much earlier and before the Mongols came in and erased much of the culture. He also has that annoying habit that others demonstrate of playing fast and loose with equivalences between languages. Since Chinese was the language of academia at the time, there would have been no need to identify a fighting art as "soo bahk kee" but that could have been the Korean rendering for the characters. I just have a problem with M Lee writing "Tang Soo Do" with "soo bahk Kee" behind it as though it naturally follows that one is equivalent to the other. The problem this create is that we can't know for sure what he is identifying when he says "Kang Woo Ryu" school. He's also the fella who identifies "KONG SAN GOON (J. Kwan-Ka KU) as Korean when its derivation is very definitely Okinawan, Ro-Hais' originator as unknown when it is documented and attributed to Matsumora, Kosakura and CHINTO as also as "originator unknown" when its origins are likewise well-documented and rooted in Okinawan and Southern Chinese traditions. For me. personally, if I want to study an inherently Southern Chinese tradition I would do just that. M Lees' material seems like just a bad case of historical retrofitting. FWIW Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Harris, Mark" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:25:49 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] links Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Someone had posted a link to a website that had videos of various breaks and sparring. All I can remember is that I believe the group was from Europe and they traveled the world doing exhibitions. If anyone has the link, can you please repost it? Thanks, Mark Harris --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 16:40:53 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Dressing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think you missed the point, no one technique will work in every situation, I don't think you would want to practice one kick your whole life and then use it once and get body slammed by a good grappler,, the point is is that fancy, graceful, fluid, artful, etc. etc. etc. are just words that really mean nothing to your attacker, the main thing is that whatever technique you use and practice for "any" situation is number one, effective and straight to the point. You must keep this forefront in your mind during ALL of your practicing. Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Tom Kennelly" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] KJN Duk Sung Son Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 13:26:12 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I found an old post by someone named Travis who wrote the following: GM Son was the KJN of Chung Do Kwan after GM Lee, Won Kuk. He was also in attendance during the 1955 naming committee formed by Gen. Choi. He moved to the US in the early 1960's and formed the World TKD Association (saegae tkd hup hoi). He also formed his own kwan called the kukmukwan (national martial art gym). He and his students created 5 forms call the kukmu hyung. These became required forms within the WTA along with the shotokan forms brought back by GM Lee from Japan. The kikmu hyung included more kicks, but were still symmetrical and maintained low stances, strong blocks and etc. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Kennelly" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 11:42 AM Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] KJN Duk Sung Son I believe he was the 2nd GM of Chung Do Kwan after Lee Won Kuk. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Richards" To: "Dojang Digest" Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 9:26 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] KJN Duk Sung Son Can anyone tell me anything about the training of Duk Sung Son, and in particular the Kwan he originally belonged to in Korea. He is the senior author of "Korean Karate, the art of tae kwon do". Thanks, Danny Dunn He is Chung Do Kwan. You'll find several references to him in the Modern History of Taekwondo. Find it off http://martialartsresource.com. If my memory serves me correctly, Master Son is a member of the Kuk Mu Kwan,and was under Lee Won Kuk of the Chung Do Kwan....J. R. West www.hapkido.com Master Dunn, My seniors gave you the answer I would have. Duk Sung Son is a student of Lee Won Kuk, and I believe at one point successor GM, and senior to my first GM Jhoon Rhee. Depending on when the book was written (pre 1973?, or pre 1961?) and based on the tittle "Korean Karate." It is probably a good recorded reference of Lee Won Kuk's Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo Do of circa 1944, and should be an excellent addition to us TSD players' library. Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TangSooDo LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 9 From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 13:57:45 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: How old are Kata/Forms really?(was Naihanchi) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 5/14/2002 12:06:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > I postulate that Naihanchi is perhaps the oldest Karate-ish > > kata/hyung/poomse/form still being actively taught and practiced today. > > Hwang Kee claims it originated about 900 years ago. > I used to enjoy believing that Kata or forms were passed down through hundreds and hundreds of years. We were told that the are the living textbook of an art. I then read an article, I regret that I cannot recall the reference, but I believe that it was the Journal of Asian Martial Arts. Perhaps this will jog someone else's memory. The author stated that the notion that Kata or forms have been passed down over hundreds of years is a myth. The huge majority, perhaps all kata or forms are of relatively recent origin, 100 years to 150 years MAX. Even the Chinese arts were not codified as exact forms and were not passed down as forms. He discussed why forms or kata began and became popular, but I am sorry that I do not recall what his argument was. I will look for the reference. Does anyone else recall this? --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 12:21:04 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Scare Tactics Stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Greg, Charles, Melinda et al: "....I try to keep the majority of our self-defense training and imagery tailored to compassionate (deosn't mean weak, just non-maiming) control of a friend/relative, with a smattering of boogie man training thrown in. Does anyone else take this approach, or am I just a freak? ...." When I did the "Resolving Conflicts" chapter for DOCHANG JOURNAL (Level Four) one of the places that was sorely in need of being addressed was this very issue that we are talking about here. In the chapter I addressed conflicts as a four stage process beginning with pre-disposition and ending with encounters with manical rage. What I find is that most schools and classes train for common encounters which are characterized in that chapter as "Challenges." This includes a broad range from yelling matches, to scuffles, and maybe the odd busted lip or broken nose. Real conflicts are the "blood in their eye" or "I tell ya, officer, I don't remember a thing-- I just saw red" homicidal encounters. Now, when folks sell someone on MA they usually come from a place of dealing with "homicidal encounters." How often will this actually happen without you going to look for it? I say its rare--- very rare. But that doesn't keep people from using scare tactics along these lines. Problem is that most raining is designed for not dealing with these sorts of encounters but rather the "challenges." Not so bad, but what happens when someone trains for challenges ("Conflict Lite") and then suddenly finds themself in a true "homicidal encounter"? I say, look what happens when a point-fighter suddenly finds themselves up against a full-contact person. For me, personally, I don't much care which way a person wants to learn or train. However, I think the real danger is that the person thinks they are getting one kind of preparation and finds out the hard way that they got something else. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Woodard Brian (ChW/TEF8)" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 14:52:20 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] GM Duk Sung Son and TKD/TSD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am a TKD student in the WTA (World Taekwondo Association i.e. GM Duk Sung Son's organization). We recently had our regional tournament in which GM Son attended and judged all black belt sparring matches, and all colored belt championship matches. He also presided over black belt testing after the tournament. It was really a great honor to fight in the championship match of my rank and have him there. You could also tell that he has a great passion for teaching Taekwondo. On a different note..... I do have a question for everyone. I have been in a Taekwondo school that taught ITF forms and I now am in a school that teaches basically Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo Do. I still try to perform my old ITF forms to keep them in muscle memory so I actively work both sets of forms. What would be your opinions as to the fundamental differences/similarities between the two sets of forms with respect to techniques, generating power, motion, and stances. Brian Woodard Facilities Engineer Robert Bosch Corporation, ChW/TEF8 brian.woodard@us.bosch.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest