Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 15:44:00 -0700 (PDT) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #246 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. One up for the underdog (Ray Terry) 2. How to stay focused on a form (Tyranmarla@aol.com) 3. Utz (Morgan James) 4. Re: Are Duk Sung Sons' hyung still around? (Bruce Sims) 5. Re: Son Duk Sung (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 6. Self Defense and Joint Locks (Alagna, Steven M) 7. Jhoon Rhee article (Morgan James) 8. Re: Re: Son Duk Sung (Ray Terry) 9. Re: Jhoon Rhee article (Ray Terry) 10. RE: Way-Back Machine ( Pt 2) (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 11. Re: scare tactics stuff (ABurrese@aol.com) 12. Bassai Sho (Charles Richards) 13. Re: Re: Are Duk Sung Sons' hyung still around? (Tom Kennelly) 14. Purpose of training (Patrick L) 15. Re: Re: Are Duk Sung Sons' hyung still around? (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, eskrima@martialartsresource.net, policedo@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 12:38:24 PDT Subject: [The_Dojang] One up for the underdog Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarded message: Burglar Beaten by Karate Expert Tuesday, May 14, 2002 JOHANNESBURG (Reuters) - A burglar who tried to strangle a South African woman ended up in hospital with a fractured skull when the 45-year-old karate expert fought back, a local newspaper reported on Tuesday. The Star said Marietjie Fourie, who will compete in the Shotokan Karate World Championships in 2003, let fly a flurry of blows when her attacker grabbed her at her home in the port city of Durban. The man struck back, but Fourie grabbed wooden fighting sticks joined by a chain and lit into him, putting him in hospital with a smashed skull and facial bones. Fourie was quoted by the newspaper as saying it was the third time she had physically repelled intruders or attackers. "Every time I have caught someone trying to break into my house or attack me, I have beaten them off, incapacitating them or forcing them to flee," she said. South Africa has one of the world's highest rates of violent crime. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Tyranmarla@aol.com Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 15:27:35 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] How to stay focused on a form Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have a question for the people on the list. I am a 7th level yellow belt in TKD, the problem is that for the last 3 classes my mind has went blank on my forms. Most of these forms I have been performing for over 3 months, but lately when I am in the middle of one, I just forget, but when I arrive home and start practicing I remember it. Am I trying to learn to many too fast? My next rank test should be in August, green belt. The new forms are getting harder and more complex. Should I slow down? Practice more? I don't just want to get the belt, I want to be able to execute the forms and stances properly. Any suggestions would be appreciated. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Morgan James To: 'Dojang Digest' Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 14:33:03 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Utz Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Does anyone know what "Utz" means in Korean? James --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 14:41:41 -0500 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Are Duk Sung Sons' hyung still around? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Tom: ".....). He and his students created 5 forms call the kukmu hyung. These became required forms within the WTA along with the shotokan forms brought back by GM Lee from Japan. The kikmu hyung included more kicks, but were still symmetrical and maintained low stances, strong blocks and etc. ....." Since these forms mentioned by "travis" would have been later constructions, I am guessing that they would perhaps mirror the kata taken from Japanese traditions but also have a higher frquency of kicks as a deferral to Korean tradition. Do you know if these hyung are still practiced? GM Lee has GM Kwang Kees' hyung in his book ("Chil Sung Hyung 1,2,3). Have any later authors published or republished GM Duk Sung Sons'material? Just curious to compare and contrast them. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 15:53:46 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Son Duk Sung Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> hi danny, my master, robert lee perry of ohio, sent me the following in regard to our lineage. i think it would be helpful for you, too :) "Woon Kyu UHM Portions of Modern History of TaeKwonDo by Won Sik Kang and Kyong Myong Lee. Provided here and elsewhere with permission. Uhm Woon Kyu recommended as members Yoon Kwe Byung, Hwang Kee, Ro Byung Jick, Nam Tae Hi, Lee Nam Suk, and Uhm Woon Kyu and this was passed. It took 6 days to reform the group. The next issue was the naming of the art, which was very important at the time. Nam Tae Hi (thinking about the old 1959 Korea Taekwondo Association) suggested the name of the art be Taekwondo, and Uhm Woon Kyu agreed. But Lee Nam Suk (thinking about his own Kong Soo Do Chang Moo Kwan) suggested Kong Soo Do, and Hwang Kee and Ro Byung Jik agreed with this. On this particular day 11 Vice Presidents were elected. Chapter 1: Development of the Korean Kwans Section 1: Chung Do Kwan Right after the independence of Korea the Chung Do Kwan, one of the five key dojangs, was founded first. It symbolized the Chung Do Kwan's name, Blue Waves, meaning a youngster's spirit and vitality. Chung Do Kwan's founder, Lee Won Kuk, moved to Japan when he was 19 years old, in 1926. While in Japan he first attended high school and then entered the law school of Chuo University. Then he joined Japan's Karate-do headquarters, the Song Do Kwan (Shotokan). He received Karate instruction from Karate's father, Funakoshi Sensei. There he learned Karate with the Song Moo Kwan's founder, Ro Byung Jick. He moved back to Japan and taught Tang Soo Do in the Yong Shin school hall in Suh Dae Moon Gu's Ochun Dong, Seoul because he had a good relationship with Japan's Chosun Governor General Abe in 1944. This led to the rumor that he was pro-Japanese. Later, Oh Do Kwan's founder, Choi Hong Hi said "After independence Lee Kwan Jang was charged with acts of pro-Japanese and stood in a special civil trial." Lee Won Kuk was a precise person. He had a strong body of a martial artist and glaringly sharp eyes. His expression was very strict. Right after the independence day he seemed to offset his pro-Japanese deeds by developing a good relationship with people of the National Police Headquarters. He led the efforts to get rid of Seoul gangsters. The Chung Do Kwan was once called the National Police Headquarters dojang. After the Korean War the Chung Do Kwan members were less than 200. GM Lee Won Kuk visited the school twice and watched the lessons. The primary instructors were Yoo Ung Jun and Son Duk Sung with promotion tests given every six months. Graduates of the Chung Do Kwan were: (1) Yoo Ung Jun, (2) Son Duk Sung, (3) Uhm Woon Kyu, (4) Hyun Jong Myun, (5) Min Woon Sik, (6) Han In Sook, (7) Jung Young Taek, (8) Kang Suh Chong, (9) Baek Joon Ki, (10) Nam Tae Hi, (11) Ko Jae Chun, (12) Kwak Kuen Sik, (13) Kim Suk Kyu, (14) Han Cha Kyo, (15) Jo Sung Il, (16) Lee Sa Man, (17) Rhee Jhoon Goo (Jhoon Rhee), and (18) Kim Bong Sik. >From Inchon, which became the center of the Chung Do Kwan's annex Kwans, more schools were opened. They were: (1) Kang Suh Chong's Kuk Mu Kwan, (2) Lee Yong Woo's Jung Do Kwan in Suh Dae Moon Ku, (3) Ko Jae Chun's Chung Ryong Kwan in Kwang Ju and (4) Choi Hong Hi's Oh Do Kwan. The Oh Do Kwan especially had active Chung Do Kwan members who were in the military after the Korean War. The Chung Do Kwan's first Kwan Jang was Lee Won Kuk, the second was Son Duk Sung, and the third was Uhm Woon Kyu. When Son Duk Sung because the Kwan Jang of the Chung Do Kwan, Uhm Woon Kyu, Hyun Jong Myun, and Nam Tae Hi had conflicts with regard to the issue of who should receive the nomination from Lee Won Kuk and become the next Kwan Jang." hope this helps :) melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy http://www.cjmaa.com Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.cjmas.com Toll Free: 1-877-847-4072 Proud Sponsor of the 2001 10th Annual US Open TKD Championships --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Alagna, Steven M" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 12:58:21 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Self Defense and Joint Locks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce said: >>For me, personally, I don't much care which way a person wants to learn or train. However, I think the real danger is that the person thinks they are getting one kind of preparation and finds out the hard way that they got something else.>> I agree totally. You are not teaching self-defense unless you include at least the following: 1. Awareness 2. Avoidance 3. Non-Physical Conflict Management/Resolution 4. Simple, Effective, Physical Defense Methods 5. Legal Aspects of Defending Oneself 6. Dealing w/ the Aftermath Regarding joint locks and manipulations, a person has to be willing for these to work and your drunk uncle or friend may not even feel it. What do you do then, break his arm, leg, or wrist to *make* him comply?? People using alcohol and drugs don't feel pain until later and you may have a law suit on your hands for messing someone up. Now how do you control them?? This is why the police, security people, and bouncers often have multiple people to hold this person down so they don't harm themselves or the people trying to control them. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Morgan James To: 'Dojang Digest' Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 15:04:47 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Jhoon Rhee article Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I just had to share this with everyone. It was toooo funny when I first read it. Last night after classes one of my 9th Gups brings me this magazine with an article about GM Jhoon Rhee in it. It was the February 17, 2002 edition of the Washington Post Magazine. On page 6 there is a short article on GM Rhee. He discusses what got him interested in Tae Kwon Do while a young boy in Korea (a girl slapped him...). Also, he talks about what sparked his interest in coming to the United States. If any of you are willing to pay to view the archived articles on the Washington Post Magazine website you can go to http://washingtonpost.com then do a search on "Tae Kwon Do" and you will find the article eventually. But, if you are like me and do not wish to create an account on that site and then pay a fee, I'll just quote it here for ya'll. Quoted below is the second paragraph: "When I was a teenager in Korea in 1946, I saw an American movie. There were lots of beautiful women with blond hair. I fell in love with an American blonde. That night I set my goals to move to America to introduce tae kwon do to America and to marry one of those beautiful blondes. I came to Washington from Texas for the summer and on June 28, 1962, opened my first tae kwon do school. All the beautiful blond girls had thorns like roses. So I found a Korean black-haired woman." -- quoted from an interview by David Liss No disrespect intended with this next comment but during the time I lived in Korea it was very obvious to me that most Koreans were highly motivated by money. They would do anything to earn that American dollar. To make the most money possible was the ultimate goal. It just cracked me up to read that GM Rhee was motivated by blondes!! I'm sure that's not entirely the case but it sure did seem like it reading this article. Way to go GM Rhee!!!!! James --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Son Duk Sung To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 14:00:44 PDT Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > my master, robert lee perry of ohio, sent me the following in regard to our > lineage. i think it would be helpful for you, too :) > > "Woon Kyu UHM > Portions of Modern History of TaeKwonDo by Won Sik Kang and Kyong Myong Lee. > Provided here and elsewhere with permission. > Uhm Woon Kyu recommended as members Yoon Kwe Byung, Hwang Kee, Ro Byung Jick, > Nam Tae Hi, Lee Nam Suk, and Uhm Woon Kyu and this was passed. It took 6 days > to reform the group. This entire translation is available at: http://martialartsresource.com/anonftp/pub/the_dojang/digests/history.html Free for all to use for their research. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Jhoon Rhee article To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 14:01:37 PDT Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > It just cracked me up to read that GM Rhee was motivated by blondes!! I resemble that remark... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 15:25:04 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Way-Back Machine ( Pt 2) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear JS: "..... The author stated that the notion that Kata or forms have been passed down over hundreds of years is a myth. The huge majority, perhaps all kata or forms are of relatively recent origin, 100 years to 150 years MAX. Even the Chinese arts were not codified as exact forms and were not passed down as forms. He discussed why forms or kata began and became popular, but I am sorry that I do not recall what his argument was. I will look for the reference. Does anyone else recall this?...." I would love to give you a straight answer but the question is not quite as straight forward as you might think. I don't want to play word games with you but a lot of the answer depends on what you are calling forms/hyung/kata. As I sit in front of my keyboard there are a few things to consider. First off, if what you are calling a hyung is an inviolate series of postures knit together with a pre-determined set of tranisitional movements and intended to produce a specified result--- you have absdolutely right. This pretty much describes the post WW II MA culture which could be pretty rigid--- and usually for cultural or political reasons having nothing to do with quality of art or effectivness in combat. Going backwards in time, though, there is an interesting pattern that develops. Prior to WW II was a period of organization and structuring, as Itosu and Funakoshi tried to make Okinawa-te into something that kids could learn school. Up to and including Itosus' students, it was pretty common for things to be even more liberal with teachers referring students to other teachers to learn alternate versions of kata and thereby, perhaps, adopt alternative ways of using their bodies. Prior to that techniques may or may not have been learned in a string of related or connected techniques. This has us back to about 1756 with Kung Shiang Kung (AKA "Ku-shan ku") the Chinese emissary. We don't know that he did anything more than teach disparate techniques and the kata KUSHAN-KU MIGHT be based on what he taught. Now if you look at Gen Qi's book (C. 1567) , or the MYTBTJ you will notice that the diagrams are of discreet postures and while there are some suggested turns and steps nobody knows for sure what those transitional moves really could have been if there were any in fact. It would be like you getting a Boxing notebook and it has pictures showing you a jab, right-cross and an upper-cut but no set way to pull them together into a useful pattern. Maybe people made up their own little mnemonic patterns so they could remember what they needed to practice and later salted their pattern with special tricks they picked up and likewise didn't want to learn. The sword hyung are better organized, but not by much. One other point. A guy by the name of Gu raised a ruckus years back by suggesting that the Chen family took the balance of their Chen TCC material from Gen. Qi-s training manual. This would have been about 1750 or so I think. Could be wrong on this. The Large Frame and the Cannon Fist Form were supposed to have come about at that time. I mention this only because maybe the Chen family were particularly adept at stringing moves together, or maybe the General used much more specific moves and postures in more closely defined order than I am giving him credit for. Thats about the best I can do right now. FWIW. BTW: If you come across that JAMA material will you post it? JAMA material is pretty well reviewed and I would give them a lot of credit if thats what they actually said. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 16:28:38 -0400 From: ABurrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: scare tactics stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce and others brought up a good point. I usually refer to kinds of physical altercations as fights and combat. Fights are two people hitting, kicking, etc. but not trying to kill each other. These are abundant, especially with young males. I was in a lot of these kinds of fights. They are still "real" in the fact that they hurt, get you in trouble and sometimes people get hurt bad and killed. However, combat is a whole different story. That's when the intention from the get go is to seriously hurt or kill someone. The stakes are raised, often with weapons. You go into a combat situation with a fight mindset and you are in serious trouble. Just like if you go into a fight with a competition mindset you are in trouble. And a fight might change into combat sometime during the encounter. My roommate and I knocked the heck out of each other one night at Bragg, both being bruised, sore, etc. later. But we made up and were friends again after it was all over and we calmed down. That was a lot different than say the time that giant sob grabbed me around the throat in a bar and wanted to pound me into the pavement. Ambulance was called that night. And that was a lot different than going into a situation in southern cal with a .45 because of the circumstances and gang involved. All are real, but all are different. If you don't know the difference, have never trained for the difference, and don't know how to tell the difference, you can be in a world of hurt when things go down. Tae Bo confidence just doesn't cut it in some situations. The good thing is that most of the violence out there, of all kinds, can be minimized and avoided with the proper knowledge and habits of a person as well. Yours in Training, Alain Burrese www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 13:42:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] Bassai Sho Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net We only do the one Bassai (Dae). Most of the Okinawan and Japanese styles which this comes from does do 2 different verions, Bassai Dae and Bassai Sho. The only Korean styles I've seen do both of them tended to follow more from the KongSooDo side or those who's founders had learned Japanese Karate first prior to TangSooDo/TaeKwonDo. You don't see Bassai sho done much in Korean Karate. (at least I haven't) A while back we had a TangSooDo competition here in Atlanta and students of KJN Kim Tong Moon (Global Tang Soo Do) competed with Bassai Sho. I think they explained it as an "extra" form introduced around Red or Cho Dan Bo....FWIW Yours in Jung Do, Charles R. Moja Kwan LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Tom Kennelly" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Are Duk Sung Sons' hyung still around? Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 17:21:41 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net GM Son has authored a book called "Korean Karate" in 1968. I see Kikmu I & II documented in the book. In addition the Pyong An poomse are in the book as well. Are the Pyong An poomse close to Shotokan kata? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Sims" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 3:41 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Are Duk Sung Sons' hyung still around? Dear Tom: ".....). He and his students created 5 forms call the kukmu hyung. These became required forms within the WTA along with the shotokan forms brought back by GM Lee from Japan. The kikmu hyung included more kicks, but were still symmetrical and maintained low stances, strong blocks and etc. ....." Since these forms mentioned by "travis" would have been later constructions, I am guessing that they would perhaps mirror the kata taken from Japanese traditions but also have a higher frquency of kicks as a deferral to Korean tradition. Do you know if these hyung are still practiced? GM Lee has GM Kwang Kees' hyung in his book ("Chil Sung Hyung 1,2,3). Have any later authors published or republished GM Duk Sung Sons'material? Just curious to compare and contrast them. Best Wishes, Bruce _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Patrick L" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 14:37:52 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Purpose of training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Mr. Giddins, For most students the motivation for studying MA is rarely the fear of Grandma going crazy at Christmas, but I agree with you that one is more likely to need to control someone you care about (friend or family) than a sociopath. But a good deal of study should be (IMHO) for personal development. Overcoming our personal boogie man is important. Hapkido provided me with the peace of mind I was looking for, regardless of the probabilities of to whom I might apply it. Getting in the WAY, Patrick >But if I'm correct in my thinking, a resident of the US is MUCH more likely >to be assaulted by a non-stranger in a domestic situation than they are to >be attacked by a serial rapist, even in the worst of neighborhoods. I try to keep the majority of our self-defense training and imagery tailored to compassionate (doesn't mean weak, just non-maiming) control of a friend/relative, with a smattering of boogie man training thrown in. Does anyone else take this approach, or am I just a freak? < _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com --__--__-- Message: 15 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Are Duk Sung Sons' hyung still around? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 16:20:16 PDT Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > GM Son has authored a book called "Korean Karate" in 1968. I see Kikmu I & > II documented in the book. In addition the Pyong An poomse are in the book > as well. I have two books from Duk Sung So and Robert J. Clark, Ph.D.: Korean Karate: The Art of Tae Kwon Do, 1968, Prentice-Hall, no ISBN given, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number = 68-17527 Chapter headings; Intro, What is TKD, Fundamentals of TKD, Warming-up Exercises, Basic Blows Kicks and Blocks, Forms, Three Step Sparring, Some Practical Applications, Free-Style Fighting, Other Exercises and Breaking Objects, Conclusion, Index. Black Belt Korean Karate, 1983, Prentice-Hall, ISBN 0-13-077669-6 Chapter headings; Intro, The Meaning of the Black Belt, Four Black Belt Forms, Women in TKD, Making the Black Belt into a Fighter, Breaking Techniques, Rules for TKD Matches, Match and Tournament Fighting, Street Fighting Against an Unarmed Assailant, Street Techniques Against an Armed Assailant, Conculsion, Index. FWIW Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest