Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 13:04:29 -0700 (PDT) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #248 - 21 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Chung Do Kwan TSD history (Charles Richards) 2. JAMA Issue Index (Grant D. Watson) 3. : [The_Dojang] how to stay focused on a form (David) 4. Re: JAMA stuff (Bruce Sims) 5. Re: Are Duk Sung Sons' hyung still around? (Morgan James) 6. Re: how to stay focused on a form (Nick Oosting) 7. Re: Anyone Heard of "Do In" (Danny Dodge) 8. Re: Still Hyung up on Kata (Bruce Sims) 9. RE: Forms and Sung Duk Son (Dunn, Danny J RASA) 10. Re: Re: Are Duk Sung Sons' hyung still around? (Ray Terry) 11. Taps (Ray Terry) 12. Burlar Beaten Up (CKCtaekwon@cs.com) 13. Re: archives (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 14. (no subject) (Randall Sexton) 15. (no subject) (Randall Sexton) 16. Membership Growth at the Dojang? (Lee Fisk) 17. Drunken Uncle Techniques (Alagna, Steven M) 18. Re: Drunken Uncle Techniques (Ray Terry) 19. Re: Re: archives (Ray Terry) 20. RE: Encyclodedia of Korean Karate (Dunn, Danny J RASA) 21. Re: RE: Forms and Sung Duk Son (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 22:27:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] Chung Do Kwan TSD history Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This entire translation is available at: http://martialartsresource.com/anonftp/pub/the_dojang/digests/history.html Free for all to use for their research. Dear Melinda and Ray Thank you! Pretty much as I remembered it but good to have a reference for us gray beards :-). Yours in Jung Do, Charles R. Moja Kwan LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 03:22:19 -0700 (PDT) From: "Grant D. Watson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] JAMA Issue Index Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The index of article titles in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts can be found here: http://www.goviamedia.com/journal/issues.html ===== Grant D. Watson, LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "David" To: Subject: : [The_Dojang] how to stay focused on a form Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 07:59:44 -0300 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Remember that practicing, should include visualizations. The hardest part of learning forms is remembering what comes next. If you can visualize yourself doing the whole form to the point where you no longer have to think about it, then you'll have little problem with the physical part of actually doing it. David Riehl 1st Dan ( just a beginner ) WTF --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 07:16:19 -0500 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: JAMA stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: "...I believe the JAMA website (can't recall the URL now, but of course we link to it @ martialartsresource.com) has an index to past articles. Not to the entire article, just the titles (I think). Perhaps that would help pinpoint the issue in question. I have all back issues, save a couple recent issues that went missing during my very recent stay in a London hospital ward...." Thanks for the tip on JAMA. I, too, keep back issues in a sort of JAMA "Mini-library" but do not religiously keep every issue (with apologies to Mr. DiMarco :-) ). I didn't see anything last night, but maybe a visit to the JAMA website will produce something. BTW: I hope everything is knitting up OK. Do you know if Dillman has uncovered any material in the Kata which exploit suture lines as effective pressure points? :-) Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Morgan James To: 'Dojang Digest' Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 07:25:54 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Are Duk Sung Sons' hyung still around? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I would LOVE to a get a copy of both of GM Duk Sun Son's books!! I have been looking for them for quite sometime. I have found them on the I-net but those who have them want an arm and a leg for them. You can get them from the World TKD Association website but you have to be a WTA member to purchase them. Anybody know where I can get these books at a decent price?? Thanks. James. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 08:26:41 -0400 From: "Nick Oosting" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: how to stay focused on a form Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<< Sounds to me like you just need to spend more time practicing outside of class. To be able to execute forms properly the movements must be done enough so that they are imprinted on the muscle memory, in other words they become instinctive and can be performed without conscience thought.á--- Shawn Ritchie--- skjsa@earthlink.net.á >>>> I agree. When you're practicing at home try distracting yourself by saying your abc's or counting backwards out loud. Nick --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 08:08:39 -0500 From: Danny Dodge To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Anyone Heard of "Do In" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Mr. Callahan, I don't know much about Do-In but I do have a book about it my neighbor gave me a while back. It's titled "The Book Of Do-In" and while I've only read a few pages it struck me as very "Zen" like in it's belief's. But since I'm no Zen expert either I could be totally off base here. I can tell you the book was written by Michio Kushi and first published in 1979 by Japan Publications Inc. ISBN 0-87040-382-6 Hope this helps Danny Dodge Taekwondo 5th Gup Hapkido 6th Gup --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 08:10:27 -0500 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Still Hyung up on Kata Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I start by apologizing to the individual who asked the question because I can't find your name. No rudeness intended. You asked about how closely the Korean Pyong Ahn hyung compares to the Pinan kata and once again its not exactly that straight forward but I can make some suggestions about how you can get the answers you want. When OS Itosu organized the Pinan kata, he was trying to adjust the Okinawan art of To-De so it could be used in the Okinawan school system. To do this he had to make pretty sophisticated kata easier to learn and less "combative." One line of thought is that he took a little known existing kata called CHANNON and modified that. Another line of thought is that he took material from the kata KuSHAN-KU and organized that into 5 mini-kata of varying degrees. DRAGON TIMES did a fabulous article on the 15 Kata of the SHOTOKAN system of OS Funakoshi (See vol 20). They have a pretty crappy attitude towards KMA but their writing is still very good and I recommend it. So, now, along comes OS Funakoshi, Gichin and he starts to do for the Japanese Educational system what his teacher Itosu did for the Okinawan system. Of course he has HIS own ideas on how things should be taught. (You will find that ideas on what is important and how it should be taught have a whole lot more to do with the evolution of the Okinawan arts than combat effectiveness.). He switches (juxtapositions) Pinan #1 & #2 and reduces the more subtle moves, emphasizing concussive (kicking and striking and hard blocks). He renames his creation "Heinan". Later his son, Gigo, takes this much farther by exaggerating the stances, making turns and angles set increments of 45 degrees (ie. 45, 90, 180 etc) and eliminating an emphasis on grappling applications. Compare the aged pictures of OS Funakoshi doing the Heinan kata in his book with those of OS Nakayama doing the same kata in BEST KARATE series and you will see what I mean. So then we have the Korean nationals who studied SHOTOKAN/SHOTOKAI and repatriated to Korea after WW II. I gave away my copy of GM Duk Sung Sons' books (Hey, I'm Hapkido! What the hell do I know!?!) If memory serves me, though, I believe that Sons' book identified the kata as "Pinan" ("Pyung Ahn") but the sequence, 1-5 was the same as Funakoshi instated for his Heinan series. As I write this I have GM Lees' book "TANG SOO DO" and he also uses the name "Pyung Ahn" to identify these hyung though the order of the kata is once again "Heinan". As far as execution, the biomechanics of the Hyung more closely approximate the SHOTOKAN approach with some modifications. This could get pretty technical if I let it and there are scads of works to reference so you can make your own observations if you want to. Here are a few things that I see. 1.) Discounting for the individual performance of the model in the picture, the stances are a mixture of both "Okinawan" and "Japanese" execution. The Forward Stances are wide and elongated like the Japanese style, but the Back Stances are high and narrow and quite often I can see the front foot with its heel off the floor much like one sees often in the Okinawan execution. Also Okinawans tend to keep the knees flexed moreso than the Japanese or Korean versions. 2.) Blocks are almost uniformly executed with a disregard to shielding the torso. This is consistent with the Japanese style focus on Karate as gymnastic rather than as a combative art. Okinawan practitioners tend to keep the elbows closer to the torso and the blocks are executed so as to complete the action with the sillouette of the individual. 3.) As might be expected the kicks are excuted to chest and head level on the Korean version. The Japanese version tends to target the mid-section with its kicks and the Okinawan version tends to try to keep kicks at the waist or below. AND are much higher and the feet closer reminiscent of OS Funakoshis' performance in his book. 4.)(WARNING: Personal Opinion :-) ) There is a very prominent rigidity that comes through the TSD pictures that I don't get from pictures of the same kata recorded in work on the Okinawan arts. My sense is that the Okinawans are performing the kata using the whole body while the Korean version seems to be very much a function of the shoulders and upper chest. I have no idea if any of this has been of help. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 08:29:22 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Forms and Sung Duk Son Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks for all the input and discussion. Came up with some really good resources, including three books I need to add to my library, and some things I had forgotten about(Happens more as I get older). My question about GM Son was related to my earlier question about use of the name Chulgi for the Naihanchi Hyungs. In Son and Clark's 1968 book Korean Karate, he uses the term Chulgi. (I believe M Terry already gave the date before I got back M Richards.) I was wondering if there was a relationship between the use of Chulgi and those Kwans whose instructors had been trained in Shotokan during Japanese occupation. I don't have GM Hwang's books, so I don't know if he ever used the name Chulgi. Does someone else know? Terry, I had never heard of Son and Clark's 2nd book. How valuable is it from an information standpoint? Nathan, as for your questions about Bassai. There are 2 Bassai forms, Bassai Sho and Bassai Dai. As I understand it Sho would translate something like "The Lesser" and Dai means "the Greater". I believe these are simply relational names, meaning the "Junior and Senior" or "Shorter and Longer". GM Shin, Jae Chul had the following to say about bassai: Bassai is the modern Korean Pronounciation of of the old name Pal Che. Pal Che has several potential meaninings depending on the time the name was given and whether Che is used as a noun or verb. 1. Pal-selected, outstanding, speedy execution; Che(noun)- giant, luxurious tree, wood; therefore, "selecting the best" 2. Pal-selected, outstanding, speedy execution; Che(verb)-to take, choose or collect; therefore, "Outstanding selection of Choice" or "Selection of the best techniques" 3. Pal-selected, outstanding, speedy execution; Che(noun)-fortress or stopper; therefore, "Best selection of techniques for defense against, or penetration of, a fortress" He also adds that Che may have been a name, but indicates that is unsupported. This is probably after Hwang Kee. FWIW, GM Lee's history of Naihanchi(ie 950 years old) is straight after GM Hwang Kee. Thanks and keep discussing. Danny Dunn --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Are Duk Sung Sons' hyung still around? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 7:21:12 PDT Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Anybody know where I can get these books at a decent price?? For the arm-n-leg price try checking bookfinder.com on a regular basis. Otherwise try auction sites like ebay.com. I've gotten several very collectible out-of-print MA books via eBay over the past year or two. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry To: policedo@martialartsresource.net (Policedo), eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima), the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 06:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Taps Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Today is National Law Enforcement Officer's Memorial Day. > We have all heard the haunting song, "Taps." It's the song that gives us >that lump in our throats and usually creates tears in our eyes. But, do >you know the story behind the song? If not, I think you will be pleased to >find out about it's humble beginnings. > > Reportedly, it all began in 1862 during the Civil War, when Union Army >Captain Robert Ellicombe was with his men near Harrison's Landing in >Virginia. The Confederate Army was on the other side of the narrow strip >of land. During the night, Captain Ellicombe heard the moans of a soldier >who lay severely wounded on the field. > > Not knowing if it was a Union or Confederate soldier, Captain Ellicombe >decided to risk his life and bring the stricken man back for >medicalattention. Crawling on his stomach through the gunfire, the Captain >reached the stricken soldier and began pulling him toward his encampment. > > When the Captain finally reached his own lines, he discovered it was >actually a Confederate soldier, but the soldier was dead. The Captain lit >a lantern and suddenly caught his breath and went numb with shock. In the >dim light, he saw the face of the soldier. It was his own son. The boy >had been studying music in the South when war broke out. Without telling >his father, the boy enlisted in the Confederate Army. > > The following morning, heartbroken, the father asked permission of his >superiors to give his son a full military burial despite his enemy status. >His request was only partially granted. Captain Ellicombe had asked if he >could have a group of Army band members play a funeral dirge for his son at >the funeral. The request was turned down since the soldier was a >Confederate. But, out of respect for the father, they did say they could >give him only one musician. The Captain chose a bugler. > > He asked the bugler to play a series of musical notes he had found on a >piece of paper in the pocket of the dead youth's uniform. This wish was >granted. The haunting melody, we now know as "Taps" used at military >funerals, and at the end of each day on US military bases was born. > > Day is done.......Gone the sun........From the lakes........ > From the hills.........From the skies. > All is well, Safely rest.......God is nigh........ > > Fading light..........Dims the sight........And a star......... > Gems the sky,..........Gleaming bright > From afar, Drawing nigh, Falls the night. > > Thanks and praise, For our days, Neath the sun, > Neath the stars, Neath the sky, > As we go, This we know, God is nigh. > > I too, have felt the chills while listening to "Taps" but during Police >Memorial Week, it is all the more important to read and ponder. --__--__-- Message: 12 From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 09:58:35 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Burlar Beaten Up Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Burglar Beaten by Karate Expert Tue May 14, 9:50 AM ET JOHANNESBURG (Reuters) - A burglar who tried to strangle a South African woman ended up in hospital with a fractured skull when the 45-year-old karate expert fought back, a local newspaper reported on Tuesday. The Star said Marietjie Fourie, who will compete in the Shotokan Karate World Championships in 2003, let fly a flurry of blows when her attacker grabbed her at her home in the port city of Durban. The man struck back, but Fourie grabbed wooden fighting sticks joined by a chain and lit into him, putting him in hospital with a smashed skull and facial bones. Fourie was quoted by the newspaper as saying it was the third time she had physically repelled intruders or attackers. "Every time I have caught someone trying to break into my house or attack me, I have beaten them off, incapacitating them or forcing them to flee," she said. South Africa has one of the world's highest rates of violent crime and violence against women is widespread. Gary Pieratt Castroville Karate Club www.askarate.com Success in life is largely the result of habit. Have a Great Day! --__--__-- Message: 13 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 11:24:27 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: archives Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This entire translation is available at: http://martialartsresource.com/anonftp/pub/the_dojang/digests/history.html hey, ray... i followed the link and got a "403 forbidden" message :(....is it my computer or the server? mel Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy http://www.cjmaa.com Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.cjmas.com Toll Free: 1-877-847-4072 Proud Sponsor of the 2001 10th Annual US Open TKD Championships --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Randall Sexton" To: Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 10:26:05 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Has anyone ever heard of the style called "Do In"? (spelling?) Do-in is a form of meridian stretches which incorporates breathing...similar to yoga or Qi Gong that we do in Shiatsu. It's easy. Randall Sexton www.laughinghara.com --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "Randall Sexton" To: Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 10:19:49 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray Terry took out his spray paint can and wrote: "Mr. Sexton, So sorry to hear that your wife is blind. I didn't realize. I mean I've met you, see must be to be with you... :) I think she asked me to marry her after she DID Braille on me! Randall Sexton www.laughinghara.com --__--__-- Message: 16 From: "Lee Fisk" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 16:13:46 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Membership Growth at the Dojang? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello All, I'm am curious as to approaches used by other schools to help promote growth. Our school has two styles taught. One is TKD and the other Hapkido. The TKD classes are generally full and the HKD classes near empty. Does anyone have recommendations for improving enrollment in the HKD classes? Best regards, Lee Fisk (Tucson, 1 Gup TKD, 3 Gup HKD) _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 17 From: "Alagna, Steven M" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 09:24:24 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Drunken Uncle Techniques Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray stated: >>The third were the "drucken brother-in-law" techniques. This latter group were techniques that you might use on a 'friend' that was way out of control, being a total and complete fool, i.e. being a royal AH, a pain in the buuuttocks. You know, like I am after I get two or three beers in me...>> OK, what would these be?? A drunk feels no pain and most times can't be reasoned with. I say again, unless you are very large and can hold this person in a bear hug or sit on him with a bunch of people until he calms down or sobers up, they can't be controlled unless they want to be. Any move you try half-way will more than likely get you and the your drunk uncle hurt. Steve --__--__-- Message: 18 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Drunken Uncle Techniques To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 11:56:34 PDT Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >>The third were the "drucken brother-in-law" techniques. This latter group > were techniques that you might use on a 'friend' that was way out of > control, being a total and complete fool, i.e. being a royal AH, a pain in > the buuuttocks. You know, like I am after I get two or three beers in > me...>> > > OK, what would these be?? A drunk feels no pain and most times can't be > reasoned with. Umm, no, not a all. I was once drunk, so I know... :) Drunks feel pain, unless they are perhaps at the 0.3% level. Now PCP heads feel little to no pain and can have tremendous strength. I've heard LEOs tell me many frightening stories about dealing with out of control PCPheads. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 19 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: archives To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 11:57:38 PDT Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > i followed the link and got a "403 forbidden" message :(....is it my computer > or the server? Hi Mel, Please send me your IP address, to the addr below. Thx. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 20 From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 13:36:20 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Encyclodedia of Korean Karate Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mac, Somehow I managed to "loose" your reference to "Encyclopedia of Korean Karate Forms, but I would appreciate it if you could share a bit more info on that book. Sounds like something I would like to add to my collection. Thanks Danny Dunn --__--__-- Message: 21 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Forms and Sung Duk Son To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 13:41:34 PDT Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Terry, I had never heard of Son and Clark's 2nd book. How valuable is it from > an information standpoint? Well, hard to tell. The chapter titles were given in my previous msg, so.?. One thing, it does show four Black belt hyung. Listed are: Ship Su - 25 movements - should be completd in about 30 seconds Chul Gi II - 25 - 20 secs Yun Bee - 36 - 30 secs Ja On - 37 - 30 secs Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest