Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 02:07:26 -0700 (PDT) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #249 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: O Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. dealing w/drunks (TNTcombatives@aol.com) 2. RE: Son's 2nd book (Dunn, Danny J RASA) 3. Drunken Uncle Technique (Patrick L) 4. Titles and archives (Ray Terry) 5. Archives (Ray Terry) 6. Re: Still Hyung up on Kata (Creed71963@aol.com) 7. RE: Forms and Sung Duk Son (Creed71963@aol.com) 8. Re: Taps (Creed71963@aol.com) 9. Re: Re: Taps (Ray Terry) 10. Re: Bassai Sho (Tom Kennelly) 11. drunks (michael tomlinson) 12. Korean Swords (Sun Mu Kwan-USA) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: TNTcombatives@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 16:48:18 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] dealing w/drunks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Steve, There are a number of things you can do with mildly resistive persons...including drunks. Most push/pull moves easily unbalance them. If you are able to unbalance and direct them to the ground or into a chair, it can be very easy to subdue them. I also teach lock flow (transitioning from one technique to another). This keeps the unbalance going, and maintains control. It is easy to transition to the pain compliance that goes with many normal techniques. I teach officers and MAists the same techniques. Push-Pull-Pivot, usually breaks balance. You choose the level of control from a single arm takedown to a bent wrist come-a-long to a foot sweep trip. So long as you keep them unbalanced, they are easy to direct. I have used these lower force struggle techniques successfully on early teen kids, a distraught and angry mother of a hooligan, in custody combative prisoners, normal people who are not quite fighting yet, and too many drunks to count. All the fancy stuff aside...the best move I use on drunks, which in my experience works wonders, is simply to grab them up from behind, cover their eyes, and tilt their head back onto your own shoulder. This way you take away any horizon balance reference, you can give them commands right into their ear, and have the option to buckle their knees if they dont feel like walking with you. I know ModernWarrior.com does some more advanced but a similar concept of 'tactical jaw control' where you tilt the head back and rest it on you chest and talk directly, but upside down, to their face....apparently that works too. Mark Gajdostik TNT-Police Combatives --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 16:00:19 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Son's 2nd book Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks Ray, Oh, my apology for calling you by your last name. It was supposed to have been M Terry. By the way, I had the same problem with trying to access the site for articles and old issues of DD while you were gone. I was trying to do some research on this issue. I tried to resubscribe but it wouldn't let me do that either. I'm no computer jockey, but I don't know what I was doing wrong. Danny Dunn <<<<<<>>>>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Patrick L" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 14:30:25 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Drunken Uncle Technique Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Steve, Sometimes in the desire to discuss the effectiveness of technique, and our desire to minimize injury, we forget that the only reason to be facing Drunken Uncle is because he is attempting to do you or others harm. If he is just yelling at the TV - leave him alone. If he is pushing - cover, block, lock, control. If he is punching - cover, block, lock, knock him out. If he is trying to stab you with a meat fork - use whatever means necessary to defend yourself. Apologize for any injuries you inflict when he allows you to deliver him to an AA meeting. If his unfortunate death results from your efforts to defend the life of you or another - help raise your cousins. Getting in the WAY, Patrick >OK, what would these be?? A drunk feels no pain and most times can't be >reasoned with. I say again, unless you are very large and can hold this >person in a bear hug or sit on him with a bunch of people until he calms >down or sobers up, they can't be controlled unless they want to be. Any >move you try half-way will more than likely get you and the your drunk >uncle hurt. Steve< _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 15:27:16 PDT Subject: [The_Dojang] Titles and archives Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Oh, my apology for calling you by your last name. It was supposed to have been > M Terry. No problem. I answer to Grand Pooh-bah of the Internet, Supreme Great Grand Master, Ultimo, SuperGuro, SuperDatu, Ray, Terry, Fat Old Gray Haired Fart, or Bubba. Take your pick... :) > By the way, I had the same problem with trying to access the site for > articles and old issues of DD while you were gone. I was trying to do some > research on this issue. I tried to resubscribe but it wouldn't let me do that > either. I'm no computer jockey, but I don't know what I was doing wrong. Oh, were you and Mel trying to get at the archives at http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/... or those at ftp://martialartsresource.com ?? The first option does not work. Only the second. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 15:30:08 PDT Subject: [The_Dojang] Archives Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ohh, and there is also the online Search Engine at http://martialartsresource.com It will search thru the back issues of the_dojang. However it does not take search arguments like Ask Jeeves does. Just use arguments like you would on Google. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 18:21:10 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Still Hyung up on Kata Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Funny that I happen to stuble across this article while this discussion is going on..... http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1999/apr99/que.html This will either answer some questions, or spark further discussion. ^_^ As for my own experence on TSD forms, the system I consider my primary uses TSD forms, Including both bassai forms. Craig --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 18:25:24 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Forms and Sung Duk Son Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 05/15/2002 3:04:55 PM EST, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: << Nathan, as for your questions about Bassai. There are 2 Bassai forms, Bassai Sho and Bassai Dai. As I understand it Sho would translate something like "The Lesser" and Dai means "the Greater". I believe these are simply relational names, meaning the "Junior and Senior" or "Shorter and Longer". GM Shin, Jae Chul had the following to say about bassai: Bassai is the modern Korean Pronounciation of of the old name Pal Che. Pal Che has several potential meaninings depending on the time the name was given and whether Che is used as a noun or verb. 1. Pal-selected, outstanding, speedy execution; Che(noun)- giant, luxurious tree, wood; therefore, "selecting the best" 2. Pal-selected, outstanding, speedy execution; Che(verb)-to take, choose or collect; therefore, "Outstanding selection of Choice" or "Selection of the best techniques" 3. Pal-selected, outstanding, speedy execution; Che(noun)-fortress or stopper; therefore, "Best selection of techniques for defense against, or penetration of, a fortress" He also adds that Che may have been a name, but indicates that is unsupported. This is probably after Hwang Kee. >> Funny -- I was tought that Bassai So and Bassai Tae (Why are there several ways of writing the same words?) were Lesser Cobra and Greater Cobra forms. I have also heard that Bassai is "storming the fortress" Oy! talk about a headache!! ^_^ Craig --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 18:31:25 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Taps Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 05/15/2002 3:04:55 PM EST, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: << > We have all heard the haunting song, "Taps." It's the song that gives us >that lump in our throats and usually creates tears in our eyes. But, do >you know the story behind the song? If not, I think you will be pleased to >find out about it's humble beginnings. > > Reportedly, it all began in 1862 during the Civil War, when Union Army >Captain Robert Ellicombe was with his men near Harrison's Landing in >Virginia. The Confederate Army was on the other side of the narrow strip >of land. During the night, Captain Ellicombe heard the moans of a soldier >who lay severely wounded on the field. > > Not knowing if it was a Union or Confederate soldier, Captain Ellicombe >decided to risk his life and bring the stricken man back for >medicalattention. Crawling on his stomach through the gunfire, the Captain >reached the stricken soldier and began pulling him toward his encampment. > > When the Captain finally reached his own lines, he discovered it was >actually a Confederate soldier, but the soldier was dead. The Captain lit >a lantern and suddenly caught his breath and went numb with shock. In the >dim light, he saw the face of the soldier. It was his own son. The boy >had been studying music in the South when war broke out. Without telling >his father, the boy enlisted in the Confederate Army. > > The following morning, heartbroken, the father asked permission of his >superiors to give his son a full military burial despite his enemy status. >His request was only partially granted. Captain Ellicombe had asked if he >could have a group of Army band members play a funeral dirge for his son at >the funeral. The request was turned down since the soldier was a >Confederate. But, out of respect for the father, they did say they could >give him only one musician. The Captain chose a bugler. > > He asked the bugler to play a series of musical notes he had found on a >piece of paper in the pocket of the dead youth's uniform. This wish was >granted. The haunting melody, we now know as "Taps" used at military >funerals, and at the end of each day on US military bases was born. > > Day is done.......Gone the sun........From the lakes........ > From the hills.........From the skies. > All is well, Safely rest.......God is nigh........ > > Fading light..........Dims the sight........And a star......... > Gems the sky,..........Gleaming bright > From afar, Drawing nigh, Falls the night. > > Thanks and praise, For our days, Neath the sun, > Neath the stars, Neath the sky, > As we go, This we know, God is nigh. > > I too, have felt the chills while listening to "Taps" but during Police >Memorial Week, it is all the more important to read and ponder. >> Beautiful story, but.... I believe General Dan Buttlefield, US Army wrote 'Taps' as a replacement for the 'Lights Out' call, which was a holdover from the French Army, for his unit. It was soon was pick up by both Union and Confederate units, and by the end of the War, was the standard call for lights out. Soon after, it began to be used at Military funerals. That is what I hgave been told.....I could be wrong......^_^ Craig --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Taps To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 16:49:59 PDT Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Beautiful story, but.... > > I believe General Dan Buttlefield, US Army wrote 'Taps' as a replacement for > the 'Lights Out' call, which was a holdover from the French Army, for his > unit. Hey! I have NEVER claimed that my statements are in fact accurate and factual. :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Tom Kennelly" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Bassai Sho Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 19:08:47 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net US Chung Do Kwan Black Belts learn Bassai when moving from 2nd degree to 3rd. I do not know whether the Bassai is Sho or Dae. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Richards" To: "Dojang Digest" Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 4:42 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] Bassai Sho We only do the one Bassai (Dae). Most of the Okinawan and Japanese styles which this comes from does do 2 different verions, Bassai Dae and Bassai Sho. The only Korean styles I've seen do both of them tended to follow more from the KongSooDo side or those who's founders had learned Japanese Karate first prior to TangSooDo/TaeKwonDo. You don't see Bassai sho done much in Korean Karate. (at least I haven't) A while back we had a TangSooDo competition here in Atlanta and students of KJN Kim Tong Moon (Global Tang Soo Do) competed with Bassai Sho. I think they explained it as an "extra" form introduced around Red or Cho Dan Bo....FWIW Yours in Jung Do, Charles R. Moja Kwan LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 23:17:09 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] drunks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Actually Drunks do feel quite a bit of pain, just because your judgement is impaired and you might be a little numb to the world doesn't make you an insane zombie,, I too unfortunately have known and cavorted with many drunks in my day and I am unproud to say I have fought quite a few of these fellas, dating back to high school,, college rugby team, football team, neighborhood friends and foes,, and some very unsavory few in the clubs back in the 70's and 80's, and they "definately" feel pain,, and they ALL feel choke holds!! They also have impaired motor skills which make them easier to control then some of you assume on here, drunk doesn't make you superman, it makes you clumsy and out of control.. my experience anyway.. Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 18:30:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Sun Mu Kwan-USA To: Dojang digest Subject: [The_Dojang] Korean Swords Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net For those that are interested in purchasing Korean style swords, my friend has listed some for sale on ebay. ===== LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest