Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 13:25:17 -0700 (PDT) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #257 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: O Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. TKD (Laurie S.) 2. Re: tkd as sport and not m.a. (Creed71963@aol.com) 3. RE: Word Stuff (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 4. RE: "straight" TKD (Brian Myers) 5. TKD reference (Laurie S.) 6. Straight TKD (Charles Richards) 7. non-compete agreements (Wes Sutton) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Laurie S." To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 00:24:03 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mel wrote: <<<>>> Sorry, Mel :o) Laurie _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 02:15:15 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: tkd as sport and not m.a. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 05/20/2002 6:46:20 PM EST, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: << From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 09:49:33 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: tkd as sport and not m.a. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy wrote: <<<>>> I don't wanna start a TKD flame war here, but I have to disagree. Yes some schools teach TKD as sport. But not all schools (like mine) do. We learn the fancy kicks and all, but when we are doing step sparring, techniques, and self defense, we don't do them. We use a lot more hand techniques, low kicks, ext. My school is serious about self defense, not sport (eventhough we do have the option).">> This is a matter of perspective. TKD is an Olympic sport, just like Judo, and it is a martial sport. That doesn't mean there're not TKD schools out there that concentrate on the martial art aspect -- there are plenty of them. But how many of these martial arts schools actually produce Olympic-caliber sport competitors? The difference between fighting an opponent in the ring and on the street are night and day. they may dress it in fancy clothes, but martial sport is not the same as martial arts -- it is skimming foam off the surface of martial arts and setting up as something seperate. (Personlly, I think it is stupid not to allow punches to the face in Olympic compition -- it's OK to hit your opponent in the head with a spinning heel kick, but popping a jab into someone's face isn't?) There's too many so called 'Black Belts' out there who have neither the skill or depth to hold the rank, and they teach Sport TKD as a martial art. kicking to someone's head in the ring is great, but could get you killed out on the street...... Enough for now. I beginning not to make sense to myself.... Craig --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 07:37:01 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Word Stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Mac et al: ".....TKD's original intention was spectatorship?? I can't agree with that. There are those from the older, classical 'original' styles (like myself) who have never done any 'sport' or 'spectatorship' aspects of TKD. IMO, the more modern 'Kukkiwon' TKD is 'sport' and 'spectatorship' oriented, but there are many out there who do not. Including myself. ....." I could be wrong but I think if we are not careful we are going to running into those age-old buggaboos to intelligent discussion--- semantics and intent. There are a lot of MA out there especially in Japan where the relationship between what was once military art and what became civil art seems to have been much closer. I look at TKD and what I see are activities such as ITF, WTF and UTF TKD and these are descended from Japanese Karate and Taek Kyon, neither of which had a martial intent. Shotokan and its related activities descend from OS Funakoshi who made it very clear in his writing that fighting and combat was the LAST thing he was interested in and that the focus of Karate was a life-long way of dealing with Life (--"Do"). Taek Kyon is essentially a street activity which eclipsed Su-Bok after the latter was outlawed early in the Yi dynasty due to problems with betting practices that got out of hand. Now, where does the military enter into this? Well, TKD makes for good training and conditioning and not a few military around the world incorporate it into their training to enhance confidence, aggression and autonomy. It is also a sport because people organize competitive events and commonly profit from these events. Could it be used as a martial art or martial science? Sure. TKD makes for a great skeleton to hang all sorts of other things off of including Hapkido arts, Chuan Fa, Penjak Silat, Muay Thai and so forth. And you could modify it to make it more pugilistic so that it would become more combat-oriented (thats what a lot of Japanese arts did prior to WW II) and I believe that is what Gen. Choi had in mind when he encouraged folks to incorporate more Ho Shin Sul (self-defense) techniques into their curriculums. Look. I don't want to rain on anybodys' parade. If folks like to think that they are learning a traditional Korean MA, fine. But as Stalin said, "facts are stubborn things." Lets not confuse a romantic desire to emulate the patrilinear traditions of the Japanese with the documented realities of history. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 07:42:28 -0500 From: "Brian Myers" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: "straight" TKD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ..."TKD's original intention was spectatorship?? I can't agree with that. There are those from the older, classical 'original' styles (like myself) who have never done any 'sport' or 'spectatorship' aspects of TKD. IMO, the more modern 'Kukkiwon' TKD is 'sport' and 'spectatorship' oriented, but there are many out there who do not. Including myself. Mac"... >From what I have read, at times I realize my resources are limited, both of you are correct and incorrect. The "traditional Korean" roots of TKD (Tae'kkyon and Ssirium) were both spectators sports. Tae'kkyon was the sport of "kicking your opponent's top knot" (the topknot being a traditional hairdressing adornment for Korean men and warriors) which was "played" at festivals and in royal courts. It consisted of only a few hand techniques and relied very heavily on a series of hig, fancy kicks. Ssirium was a form of competitive wrestling, also "played" at festivals, that resembled Japanese Sumo (some argue that Ssirium is actually the origin of Japanese Sumo). Both of these sports were based on techniques used in combat, but the organized instruction of the techniques, what would today be considered "teaching the art", focused on the sport aspects of the techniques. By this account Cheree is correct. Now "fast forward" to after the Japanese Occupation (Post WWII). The Martial Arts that begin to take hold in Korea (the 5 Kwans) all have influences of both the "traditional Korean Sports" and of Chinese and Japanese Martial Styles. Some of the names of the kwans and their arts even reflect this mixed heritage. Some of these original, Post WWII, Kwansfocus only on combat arts, while others begin to show more sport orientation. At this point you are both correct in your statements. Last, jump to today. With the splitting and combining of various original kwans, new organizations being formed and dissolved, and numerous "styles" being developed - each with their own rules, hyungs/katas/etc., and other differences, it becomes difficult - really quite impossible - to define "straight" TKD. Who's version of TKD is "straight"? ITF? WTF? ATA? STF? WTTU? (Yes I know the last three are technically the same group - but they all practice it in different areas of the world, and you should see the differences that creates!) If you "forget" which organization you belong to, which Master you pledge your allegence to, and just look at the history without any predjudice, it becomes clear that really you are both incorrect as well. I firmly believe that there is no such animal as "straight" TKD - and actually really never was. What is taught as TKD today depends on what organization or splinter group you belong to. The origins of TKD are probably truely lost to history for any number of reasons including poor recordkeeping, ego, desire for power, desire for money, "creative" history writing, etc. In the end, forget what your Master tells you the origin and use of your "art" is. Take a long honest look at what you practice. If you like what you see, then keep practicing. If you don't, or don't like where the organization is heading, then "find a new home". To mix metafores - I see myself as "Ronin" - I left the ATA because they are starting to show a very strong sport orientation, and the idea of money and org size is taking precedent over quality of student and education. I have no "Master", I practice with whomever I choose and pledge allegence to no organization. This is the only way, IMHO, to practice "straight" anything, follow your own path, stop worrying about who says what and who makes what claim. Now off my soapbox... Yours in the Martial Spirit, Brian Myers ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the EV1 webmail system at mail.ev1.net -- __--__-- Message: 3 From: "John Franich" To: Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 16:29:54 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Martial Art vs. Martial Sport Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Chereecharmello@aol.com wrote: "'What many people don't realize is that straight TKD is a sport. Many instructors do, however, add elements of other styles... ' "The key word in my original phrase is "straight." By that, I meant TKD standing alone, being taught with its original intention intact - for spectatorship. It was a sport used to entertain the elite." I study Tang Soo do, not Tae Kwon Do, so I'm not defending my own style, but I have to question the assertion that the original intention of TKD was a spectator sport to entertain the elite. I, for one, would like to know the source of that information. Would you please provide a reference? -- __--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang), policedo@martialartsresource.net (Policedo) Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 18:42:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Kyusho Jitsu Vital Point Seminars Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net California Series Kyusho Jitsu Vital Point Seminars with Professor Rick Clark Professor Rick Clark (8th Dan), a leading researcher and instructor of vital point techniques will be holding a series of vital point seminars in California in June. The theme of this tour will likely be applications from Bassai Dai kata. Participants will not require any previous knowledge of the kata. There will be something for all no matter what martial art they study. The kata contains grappling, striking and kyusho techniques. Through these seminars, Martial Artists the world over have learned how to increase the effectiveness of their techniques and gain a better understanding of the Traditional forms they practice from this world-class instructor. Friday June 21st 6:00-9:30pm Sullivan's Taekwondo Institute 681 S Madera Ave STE 109 Kerman, CA 93630 (559)846-3222 pauls@sullivanstkd.com Saturday June 22nd 1:00-4:00pm Self Defense America 562 Broadway Seaside, CA Sunday June 23rd Contact Bill Dewart (415)864-4827 -- __--__-- Message: 5 From: "Braeswood Martial Arts" To: Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 21:16:08 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Grand Opening Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings from Houston, I am very proud to announce the Braeswood Martial Art Center Grand Opening Celebration and Demonstration - Saturday June 29, 2002. The FIRST Kong Shin Bup school in Texas! Check out our web site for more information. Kat Kelly www.braeswoodmartialart.com -- __--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Laurie S." To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 09:49:17 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD reference Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<<>>> I used to study TSD also. I find that TKD (at least my dojang anyways) is similar (except for the forms). Neither is sport. Both are big on self defense, ect. I also like to know the "reference" to TKD "sport". Laurie yellow belt green stripe TKD (5th gup TSD) _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 08:01:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Straight TKD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Not sure how straight our versions will be, but consider yourself invited to the second annual Moja Kwan Moo Do Camp September 28, 2002 here in beautifull North Georgia. Share my bent version of Tang Soo Do and Master Hodder's permutation of Taekwondo. In general we will touch on... Taekwondo patterns, Tang Soo Do patterns, Sparring, Step Sparring, Hoshinsul, and weapons for adults. I will have the online registration page up on my website by the end of this month, and you can find this event listed on the USKMAF website (and a link to my page) or email me if intersted, and I'll send you the link. Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TangSooDo LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 12:01:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Wes Sutton To: The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] non-compete agreements Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To everyone, I am searching for information on non-compete agreements. I signed up at a Hapkido school here in Michigan to study hapkido in hopes of one day learning how to teach. As time went by I started volunteering at the school as a training instructor to learn how to teach. After a few months working with this Master Instructor of Hapkido he offered me a job selling memberships, because he heard me speaking to someone about my background working for Ballys' selling memberships and being a general manager of my own club. I took the position with a promise from him that I would be making the same amount of money. After a few months I could see that I would not be making the same amount of money, but because I was studying and I fell in love with Hapkido I didn't complain. In about a year I left, because to many promises and no results. I started looking for another do jang in the area, but I found there was none except about 45 miles from the other location. I started going there until it closed down five months later and then I went back to the original studio I started training at and asked for my job back. I not only got my job back, but I was made the general manager and proceeded to get my 1st keup. Now that I was a manager I started noticing some business practices that were dangerous and almost illegal. I made up my mind at this point that I would not open a school under this master for the simple reason was he did not project the attitude of a master as I was taught. I left the school, searched out another master earned my black belt then received permission to open my own charter school if I wanted to, I did. I am now being sued, because the first time I signed up for classes I also signed a non compete agreement that was stuck on the back of this contract when I was a white belt. I at no time received consideration (I paid for my membership and Hapkido is common knowledge, you can learn to a certain degree off of books and tapes). I did not receive my black belt through this Master and I teach a different style of Hapkido than him. I made sure my belt system was different, my kids classes are named different, we wear different uniforms, my prices are different, class schedule is different, etc. etc. I am looking for opinions on this one weather pro or con I would like to hear from everyone on this one. If anyone can help out legally please contact me. Mr Sutton Mid Michigan Hapkido Academy II LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest