Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 17:09:58 -0700 (PDT) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #258 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: non-compete agreements (Wallace, John) 2. Re: TKD (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 3. Non-compete (Charles Richards) 4. Re: Critique Redux (Bruce Sims) 5. Re: Legal Thoughts (Bruce Sims) 6. RE: non-compete agreements (Berkland, Victor (US - Omaha)) 7. What excatly is a "traditional" KMA? (Dave Weller) 8. Grappling in Kata? (michael tomlinson) 9. Non compete agreement (J. R. West) 10. Re: Grappling in Kata? (Ray Terry) 11. Re: TKD (TKDgalSamm@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Wallace, John" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] non-compete agreements Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 13:32:02 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Wes That's an unfortunate situation you have. I hope you prevail with dignity. There's a lawyer here in the San Francisco Bay area who helps people through KGO radio; if he can't help you, maybe he knows someone who can, in your area. www.lentillem.com Good luck John Wallace 1st gup, TKD Fremont, CA -----Original Message----- From: Wes Sutton [mailto:usmc7025@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 12:02 PM To: The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] non-compete agreements To everyone, I am searching for information on non-compete agreements. I signed up at a Hapkido school here in Michigan to study hapkido in hopes of one day learning how to teach. As time went by I started volunteering at the school as a training instructor to learn how to teach. After a few months working with this Master Instructor of Hapkido he offered me a job selling memberships, because he heard me speaking to someone about my background working for Ballys' selling memberships and being a general manager of my own club. I took the position with a promise from him that I would be making the same amount of money. After a few months I could see that I would not be making the same amount of money, but because I was studying and I fell in love with Hapkido I didn't complain. In about a year I left, because to many promises and no results. I started looking for another do jang in the area, but I found there was none except about 45 miles from the other location. I started going there until it closed down five months later and then I went back to the original studio I started training at and asked for my job back. I not only got my job back, but I was made the general manager and proceeded to get my 1st keup. Now that I was a manager I started noticing some business practices that were dangerous and almost illegal. I made up my mind at this point that I would not open a school under this master for the simple reason was he did not project the attitude of a master as I was taught. I left the school, searched out another master earned my black belt then received permission to open my own charter school if I wanted to, I did. I am now being sued, because the first time I signed up for classes I also signed a non compete agreement that was stuck on the back of this contract when I was a white belt. I at no time received consideration (I paid for my membership and Hapkido is common knowledge, you can learn to a certain degree off of books and tapes). I did not receive my black belt through this Master and I teach a different style of Hapkido than him. I made sure my belt system was different, my kids classes are named different, we wear different uniforms, my prices are different, class schedule is different, etc. etc. I am looking for opinions on this one weather pro or con I would like to hear from everyone on this one. If anyone can help out legally please contact me. Mr Sutton Mid Michigan Hapkido Academy II LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type application/x-pkcs7-signature which had a name of smime.p7s] --__--__-- Message: 2 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 16:56:57 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: TKD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Mel wrote: <<<>>> Sorry, Mel :o) Laurie" lol..no problem, laurie :). my master reads this list, i think....and i wouldnt want him to think i'd flipped out and started some splinter tkd group or something...lol. take care :) mel Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy http://www.cjmaa.com Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.cjmas.com Toll Free: 1-877-847-4072 Proud Sponsor of the 2001 10th Annual US Open TKD Championships --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 14:21:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] Non-compete Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> I am now being sued, because the first time I signed up for classes I also signed a non compete agreement that was stuck on the back of this contract when I was a white belt. <> Standard language in almost all billing service contracts. If you didn't line through it and BOTH parties initial, then legally you are bound to whatever you signed. FWIW I signed one and complied by 1. Teaching for a year outside the prescribed radius :-) That really pissed off the other party because they couldn't do anything about it. 2. Opening my current school AFTER the three year no-compete limit expired. For me I used the time to train twice a week in my complementary art (Hapkido) earning my 3rd Gup over the three year period, and to draft my student manual, procedures, excetera....even had time to draft a Dan manual with requirements through 7th Dan..... Hope that helps, Charles R. Tang Soo Do 4th Dan Former Business Idiot LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 16:21:24 -0500 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Critique Redux Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Charles: "...... Share my bent version of Tang Soo Do and Master Hodder's permutation of Taekwondo......" Please advise Master Hodder that I have purchased tickets to Texas and will be available to provide a complete critique of both his and your teaching approaches. And no ducking out with a bad ankle this time!!! ( :-) ) All kidding aside, I wish I could make it. I hope its a great success. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 16:44:23 -0500 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Legal Thoughts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Mr. Sutton: "...... I am looking for opinions on this one weather pro or con I would like to hear from everyone on this one. If anyone can help out legally please contact me....." It would not be very helpful to you to comment that your pattern of bad choices may have raised stupidity to an artform. So having written that I will also share with you that you are not alone in that boat of yours. This story gets repeated a whole lot more times than I can stomach--- from both sides--- with both exploitive over bearing Masters and impatient, status-seeking Cho-dans. When we enter into an agreement with someone, we all hope that everyone does the right thing. But when they don't there really isn't a helluva lot you can do about it. In our area, some time back a young Korean decided to open a school on the Chicago North Shore. The Korean teacher who was already there paid him a visit, told him he was "trespassing" and sent him on his way. In America we have these nifty paper-chases that do about the same thing. A non-competition agreement is about the same as those disclaimers you sign against injury at a tournament. Its a lock that tries to keep everyone from acting like a fool. You hope that having people sign such a document will cause them to think twice before they do something, but if they don't you really can't prevent them from taking you to court. When the N-C agreement has more teeth is when folks belong to some common entity like a corporation, and the corporation can step in and say what is unfair competition and whats' not. Absent that, though, I would think its pretty tough to enforce such things. Instead he gets his lawyer and argues about non-competition and you get your lawyer and argue about right to exercise your trade. You get tired. He gets tired. The judge gets tired. The lawyers get rich. America. So many lawyers; never enough bullets. :-) Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Berkland, Victor (US - Omaha)" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] non-compete agreements Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 15:18:27 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Several interesting points. First a covenant not to compete is binding in certain circumstances. However courts are reluctant to enforce them if they are unreasonable in the length and area of enforcement. For example, you may not open a do jang in the US for 10 years. People do have a right to earn a living. Second, was the non compete clause signed under the first contract, or the second contract? If it was with the first contract, the subsequent contract may void the prior contract, under what is legally known as a novation. Third, you said the other party did not keep their promises. Did they breach their contract as well? If so, you may have a course of action against them, or at least have a voidable contract. Finally, search the language of the contract. Look for ambiguities and vagueness in the wording. If it says you can't compete against his school, maybe you thought you weren't to enter into any team competitions against his school. Haha. You need legal council if you want to fight it. I am a CPA practicing not law but Moo Duk Kwon in Nebraska. Yours in Training, Mr. Berkland -----Original Message----- From: Wes Sutton [mailto:usmc7025@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 2:02 PM To: The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] non-compete agreements To everyone, I am searching for information on non-compete agreements. I signed up at a Hapkido school here in Michigan to study hapkido in hopes of one day learning how to teach. As time went by I started volunteering at the school as a training instructor to learn how to teach. After a few months working with this Master Instructor of Hapkido he offered me a job selling memberships, because he heard me speaking to someone about my background working for Ballys' selling memberships and being a general manager of my own club. I took the position with a promise from him that I would be making the same amount of money. After a few months I could see that I would not be making the same amount of money, but because I was studying and I fell in love with Hapkido I didn't complain. In about a year I left, because to many promises and no results. I started looking for another do jang in the area, but I found there was none except about 45 miles from the other location. I started going there until it closed down five months later and then I went back to the original studio I started training at and asked for my job back. I not only got my job back, but I was made the general manager and proceeded to get my 1st keup. Now that I was a manager I started noticing some business practices that were dangerous and almost illegal. I made up my mind at this point that I would not open a school under this master for the simple reason was he did not project the attitude of a master as I was taught. I left the school, searched out another master earned my black belt then received permission to open my own charter school if I wanted to, I did. I am now being sued, because the first time I signed up for classes I also signed a non compete agreement that was stuck on the back of this contract when I was a white belt. I at no time received consideration (I paid for my membership and Hapkido is common knowledge, you can learn to a certain degree off of books and tapes). I did not receive my black belt through this Master and I teach a different style of Hapkido than him. I made sure my belt system was different, my kids classes are named different, we wear different uniforms, my prices are different, class schedule is different, etc. etc. I am looking for opinions on this one weather pro or con I would like to hear from everyone on this one. If anyone can help out legally please contact me. Mr Sutton Mid Michigan Hapkido Academy II LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 17:28:20 -0500 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Dave Weller Subject: [The_Dojang] What excatly is a "traditional" KMA? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Sims Wrote: (snipped) >Message: 3 >From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov >Look. I don't want to rain on anybodys' parade. If folks like to think that >they are learning a traditional Korean MA, fine. But as Stalin said, "facts >are stubborn things." Lets not confuse a romantic desire to emulate the >patrilinear traditions of the Japanese with the documented realities of >history. FWIW. > >Best Wishes, >Bruce > I fear I am very simple, but I continue to see a circular argument whenever the subject of "tradition" arises. The argument goes like this: Your art is not traditional because it's (pick one) Japanese/Chinese origin,sport, or not the one the poster practices. >From what I have seen and read here from the historically minded folks (and believe me, I understand so little of it it's pathetic) it looks like virtually ALL the Korean "arts" have origins elsewhere. So what, praytell, is a "traditional Korean Martial Art"? Name one and a few others will tell you no it's not because:(see reasons above, and there are undoubtably more).. The nasty comments about TKD not being a martial "art" contribute nothing to understanding self defense or even "martial arts". Ask the lady who took a self defense course at one of these "spectator" non-martial arts TKD schools about how effective one simple TKD technique was in eliminating a guy intent on assault.She might argue that TKD was pretty damn helpful "on the street"... Think what you want, it is after all a free country. I certainly will not denegrate the art someone else practices, they all look pretty effective to me. I guess a broken joint is just as ineffective regardless of whether is is broken via a kick, lock, or whatever... same result. And it certainly doesn't matter which style the breaker used. dave weller student wtf tkd "Practice a thousand hours and you learn self discipline. Practice ten thousand hours and you learn about yourself." Myamoto Musashi --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 22:53:32 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Grappling in Kata? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I just read a post about a Karate seminar on Kata and it was stated that this Kata contained grappling techniques,, no offense to anyone on here and I'm sure it will be a fine seminar but let me just say that trying to teach grappling in a kata is quite hillarious in my opinion,, grappling is based on many principles that can ONLY be developed by grappling with a partner and not by yourself doing a Kata. Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "J. R. West" To: "Dojang Digest" Cc: Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 18:01:35 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Non compete agreement Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This is the scoop on "non-compete agreements". First, they have a few limitations, one being that they must be in effect for a specified period of time. Second, they must include a certain specified area that would not exceed the normal "drawing" area of the school that made you sign, in other words, you can't expect an agreement that forbids you to teach on planet earth from now until the end of time, to be held up in court. As far as compensation is concerned, if it says it on the agreement that you signed, then you received it (whether you did or not), and the fact that it is on the back of your contract is not an issue. Most of these agreements can be circumvented, but the MAIN thing to avoid is ANY mention of your school to ANY student, present or past, that you met at the dojang that made you sign this agreement. The law that covers this is designed to keep lawyers from leaving one firm and taking their clients to another, so you KNOW that this law has some teeth in it. Best wishes, but I would definitely have someone who knows the law in your state to examine this document...J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Grappling in Kata? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 17:31:56 PDT Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I just read a post about a Karate seminar on Kata and it was stated that > this Kata contained grappling techniques,, no offense to anyone on here and > I'm sure it will be a fine seminar but let me just say that trying to teach > grappling in a kata is quite hillarious in my opinion,, grappling is based > on many principles that can ONLY be developed by grappling with a partner > and not by yourself doing a Kata. > Michael Tomlinson IMHO, yes and no. Can I not learn tennis by hitting off a wall and using a ball machine w/occasional use of a workout partner? Can I only learn by playing against a partner 100% of the time? When you learn the standup grappling, breaks, and vital point applications 'hidden' in poomse/hyung/kata/djurus/forms you don't only practice them by yourself. You still work on the application with a partner, occasionally. But you usually work on them via the forms practice. Is that the Best (TM) way to learn it? Perhaps not. You and I can probably agree that it is not. But it is -a- way to learn it. A way to put it deeply into your muscle memory. Again, imho... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: TKDgalSamm@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 20:01:15 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: TKD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 5/21/2002 3:25:26 PM Central Daylight Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > There's too many so called 'Black Belts' out there who have neither the > skill > or depth to hold the rank, and they teach Sport TKD as a martial art. > kicking > to someone's head in the ring is great, but could get you killed out on the > > street...... > I've tried to stay outta this LOL!!! But hey, isn't the statement about Black Belts true in lots of other martial arts styles too????? And just to state the facts, not all styles of TKD don't allow head strikes (we were sure allowed to punch to the head) ... not only that but our forms had VERY few kicks, and high kicks in self defense were very much discouraged ... I know I'm stirring the pot, but TKD is sorta like Kung Fu in that there are many different styles. Respectfully, Loretta --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest