Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 14:57:05 -0700 (PDT) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #260 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: O Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: double check (jondavid@exp.net) 2. Re: TKD (Creed71963@aol.com) 3. t'aekkyeon as a thug's art (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 4. double check (Ray Terry) 5. RE: Grappling in Kata? (Gregory A. Works) 6. Tae kwon do (Chris Holmes) 7. Re: RE: Grappling in Kata? (Ray Terry) 8. Martial arts, martial sports, tradition, etc. (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 9. Potato or Potatoe (Ray Terry) 10. Taekkyon, not Taekwondo. (Chereecharmello@aol.com) 11. Re: Martial arts, martial sports, tradition, etc. (Ray Terry) 12. Re:changing style depending on opponent (Felix Smittick) 13. Lawyers (Charles Richards) 14. Re: You've got to be kidding me! (Miguel) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: jondavid@exp.net To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 05:06:44 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: double check Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >He makes the claim that TKD was not considered a martial art because it > lacked "mental discipline." He also went on to say that the style became > popular with vagrants and criminals. The same claim was made about Kong Soo Do/Tang Soo Do when the various kwans unified under the Tae Kwon Do name. Jon David Payne --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 09:01:35 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: TKD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 05/21/2002 7:18:41 PM EST, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: << From: TKDgalSamm@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 20:01:15 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: TKD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 5/21/2002 3:25:26 PM Central Daylight Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > There's too many so called 'Black Belts' out there who have neither the skill > or depth to hold the rank, and they teach Sport TKD as a martial art. Kicking > to someone's head in the ring is great, but could get you killed out on the > > street...... > I've tried to stay outta this LOL!!! But hey, isn't the statement about Black Belts true in lots of other martial arts styles too????? And just to state the facts, not all styles of TKD don't allow head strikes (we were sure allowed to punch to the head) ... not only that but our forms had VERY few kicks, and high kicks in self defense were very much discouraged ... I know I'm stirring the pot, but TKD is sorta like Kung Fu in that there are many different styles. >> Oh yes, The so-called "McDojo's" are not limited to TKD. It was just I was foucusing the point to cover the debate about about TKD status. My comments about high head kicks and punchs top the face was aimed solely at Olympic TKD. I should have made myself clearer I suppose. Craig --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 08:25:05 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] t'aekkyeon as a thug's art Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Cheree said: > > He makes the claim that TKD was not considered a martial art because it > > lacked "mental discipline." He also went on to say that the style became > > popular with vagrants and criminals. Ray wrote: > Ummm, you might want to double check that one. Hwang Kee says that about > Taekkyon, not Taekwondo. Two very different things/arts/styles/sports. I'm at work and having checked the citation, but Ray's explanation makes sense. Even Song Duk-Ki, who revived the art in the 1950s, said the same thing about his art. Michael Pederson has more on this, having translated the interview (and we're all still waiting for the publication Michael!). :) Take care, Dakin burdickd@indiana.edu --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 06:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] double check Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >> He makes the claim that TKD was not considered a martial art because it >> lacked "mental discipline." He also went on to say that the style became >> popular with vagrants and criminals. > >The same claim was made about Kong Soo Do/Tang Soo Do when the various kwans >unified under the Tae Kwon Do name. In his 1978 Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do), Volume 1? I don't find that. What page do you see that on? Thx. Ray Terry --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Gregory A. Works" To: Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 09:25:37 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Grappling in Kata? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Michael, I do judo and ALL of our kata involve two persons - we even have a kata, katame-no-kata, devoted exclusively to grappling techniques. This karate kata may involve two persons. I've wondered why all TKD kata are practiced alone. They seem to be more meaningful when you have an "opponent". Greg >From: "michael tomlinson" >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 22:53:32 +0000 >Subject: [The_Dojang] Grappling in Kata? >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >I just read a post about a Karate seminar on Kata and it was stated that >this Kata contained grappling techniques,, no offense to anyone on here and >I'm sure it will be a fine seminar but let me just say that trying to teach >grappling in a kata is quite hillarious in my opinion,, grappling is based >on many principles that can ONLY be developed by grappling with a partner >and not by yourself doing a Kata. Michael Tomlinson --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Chris Holmes" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 09:09:44 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Tae kwon do Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I decide to join the discussion about Tae Kwon Do. Having a lot of Tang Soo Do exposure I was taught that Tae Kwon Do was a sport and that it did not have the value of an art such as Tae Kwon Do. I blindly followed that assumption until I began to train in Han Mu Do. I have now had the opportunity to see first hand many masters and even a few GM in different Taekwondo systems. These people are the best kickers in the world! I have seen 60 and 70 year old men that could kick twice as fast and much harder than many men 1/2 their age. Now not all Tae kwon do schools and practitioners have this proficiency, but you have to respect people that can kick you in the head twice before you can blink. As far as it not being useful in self defense, several competitors have been killed from kicks to the head over the years. This is with the use of head gear. Sincerly, Chris Holmes _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Grappling in Kata? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 7:58:57 PDT Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I've wondered why all TKD kata are practiced alone. They seem to be > more meaningful when you have an "opponent". That is because TKD comes from Karate and Karate forms are not typically done with a partner. Why? Karate is just far too dangerous to be practicing with a partner. :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 09:21:42 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Martial arts, martial sports, tradition, etc. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Lots of grist for the mill today! Bruce Sims wrote: > >Look. I don't want to rain on anybodys' parade. If folks like to think that > >they are learning a traditional Korean MA, fine. But as Stalin said, "facts > >are stubborn things." Lets not confuse a romantic desire to emulate the > >patrilinear traditions of the Japanese with the documented realities of > >history. FWIW. Dave Weller replied: > From what I have seen and read here from the historically minded folks (and believe me, I > understand so little of it it's pathetic) it looks like virtually ALL the Korean "arts" have > origins elsewhere. Aside from the recent creations, yes. Keomdo (or Gumdo) came from Kendo. In the last ten years, there has been a move to Recreate a more "traditional" Korean style. Yudo came from Judo, and as far as I know is STILL judo. Korean competitors still do Well, but from what I can tell, they have a reputation for playing "dirty" (of course, that Reputation largely comes from the Japanese, so who knows!). T'aekwondo comes from Tangsudo (Tang Soo Do) and Kongsudo (Kong Soo Do), which both came from Karate. All early Korean karate instructors trained in Japan. Karate itself comes from Okinawa and is based on Southern Chinese quanfa (Ch'uan fa). Hapkido comes from Daito-ryu Aikijutsu in Japan, although since the 1960s some Hapkido groups have more closely aligned themselves with aikido stylists in Japan. Aikido is another derivative from Daito-ryu. A number of Chinese styles are popular in Korea, particularly Baguazhang and Preying Mantis. Ssireum has an excellent claim as a traditional Korean martial sport, and dates back many Centuries. It is closely related to sumo (from Japan) and Mongolian wrestling. T'aekkyeon also has an excellent claim as a traditional Korean martial sport and also dates back many centuries, although the name has changed several times. It currently seems to be unique in the world, although there is evidence that it was also found in Japan in the late nineteenth century. Dave Weller also asked: > So what, praytell, is a "traditional Korean Martial Art"? and also noted: > The nasty comments about TKD not being a martial "art" contribute nothing to > understanding self defense or even "martial arts". Ask the lady who took a self defense > course at one of these "spectator" non-martial arts TKD schools about how effective one > simple TKD technique was in eliminating a guy intent on assault. For myself, I really don't like calling something a "martial art" because it is pretty hard to Define. I prefer breaking down arts (if I have to) into the following categories: Martial sports: These are competitive sports (judo, boxing, wrestling, t'aekwondo, etc.) Martial education: These are forms of physical education (old style t'aekwondo, old style judo, etc.) Martial theater (or theatre for our British friends): These are styles designed for show, not for fight (wushu, sport karate forms, forms competitions of most types). Combatives: Close-quarters combat tactics. The intent is to kill the opponent and move on. Self-defense: Close-quarters tactics for civilians. The intent is to stop the opponent and escape. Police defense: Close-quarters tactics for police. The intent is to control the opponent. I'm sure there's lots of people who disagree with me, but I think intent and context are the most important criteria in differentiating the arts, not the techniques involved. As for the hypothetical lady that Dave Weller brings up, I'd say that ANY training is better than none, but also that t'aekweondo's main aim is rarely if ever to develop self-defense abilities (by the way, I'm a 4th dan in t'aekweondo, so I have a little experience in the style). Almost every martial art claims that, but few formal arts are really up to the challenge. To train in self-defense, you need a combination of model mugging (to train aggression), legal advice, post-attack counseling, statistics on the types of attacks, information on how criminals operate, and as much additional training and conditioning as you can fit in. If you want to train for it, be sure you keep this in mind: 1. Aggression works better than defense in a fight. 2. Avoiding a fight (if you can) is much safer than getting into one. 3. The police won't get there in time to help you. When they do show up, press charges against your attacker. 4. Get a lawyer and listen to his/her advice. 5. If a technique doesn't work against a bigger or stronger attacker, throw it out. 6. Use available weapons. 7. Train against single and multiple attackers in as many varied situations and with as many available weapons as possible. Michael Tomlinson wrote: > I just read a post about a Karate seminar on Kata and it was stated that > this Kata contained grappling techniques,, no offense to anyone on here and > I'm sure it will be a fine seminar but let me just say that trying to teach > grappling in a kata is quite hillarious in my opinion,, grappling is based > on many principles that can ONLY be developed by grappling with a partner > and not by yourself doing a Kata. I agree that partner drills are MUCH better ways to learn than doing kata (or hyung, or pumse or whatever), but one can use mental rehearsal (as in kata) to build skills. I recently showed an aikido buddy of mine how to apply forms practice to teaching jointlocks and throws, and he was surprised to find that he agreed it could be a benefit. That said, I still love partner drills better. These include: Push hands (taijiquan) Sticky hands/sticky legs (wing chun) Hubbad lubbad (kali) Sparring (boxing, karate, etc.) Jointlock flows (hapkido) Wrestling PS: Ray, isn't it "jurus" not "djurus?" Take care, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 8:47:01 PDT Subject: [The_Dojang] Potato or Potatoe Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > PS: Ray, isn't it "jurus" not "djurus?" I do djurus. :) Djuru is apparently the old/traditional spelling. Juru is the new spelling. Ray "Just an Old Fashion Guy" Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com P.S. For those that are wondering what we are talking about, a djuru is a form/kata/hyung-like practice in Pentjak Silat, aka Indonesian MA. They tend to build upon each other, e.g. djuru 3 may begin with djuru 1. The style I was exploring prior to my adventure in London is Pentjak Silat Serak, http://www.serak.com. --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:05:37 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Taekkyon, not Taekwondo. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Ummm, you might want to double check that one. Hwang Kee says that about Taekkyon, not Taekwondo. Two very different things/arts/styles/sports. TaeK Kyon is stated in the same paragraph as being known now as modern day Taekwondo ... I didn't write it, I just read it. -Cheree Charmello "...mental life is sentimental; an enjoyment of an inner landscape." -John Dewey Democracy and Education --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Martial arts, martial sports, tradition, etc. To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 10:03:15 PDT Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > T'aekkyeon also has an excellent claim as a traditional Korean martial sport > and also dates > back many centuries, although the name has changed several times. It > currently seems to > be unique in the world, although there is evidence that it was also found in > Japan in the late nineteenth century. Dakin, What is your analysis of this? Did the 'art' go from Korea to Japan or ??? Have you ever found references to it, or a similar practice, in China? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 09:50:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Felix Smittick To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:changing style depending on opponent Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > ....... > Essentially my style changes. This means to me that > I > am a good follower. I can mimic. But, is this > necessarily a good thing? Shouldn't my opponent be > having to adjust to me? > ....... Greetings Teresa, I would not say that you are being a follower. Rather you are adjusting your technique to the situation. Now if you were doing this without being aware of it then you would have a challenge. But since you are aware of this build upon it. >.... > Due to the language barrier, I can't ask my teacher > about this. Actually, I've tried, and he said its a > good thing, but I'm not sure he completely > understood. > It's not that I'm changing to suit the requirements > of the sparring session, it's that I'm reflecting > what > I'm encountering. > ...... Trust what your teacher has to say. In real life encounters, I have had to adjust my techniques to the situation. Had I rigidly stuck to what I wanted to do, this letter would probably not have been written. Now I know that in class sparring is not a life or death situation, but by developing adaptability skills in a controlled environment you can use them in "real" life. Hope this helps and keep up the good work. Sincerely, Felix Smittick www.karateworldstudios.com "Realize Your Total Potential" LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 10:53:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] Lawyers Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> America. So many lawyers; never enough bullets. :-) <> That's why I use a blade :-) <> Please advise Master Hodder that I have purchased tickets to Texas and will be available to provide a complete critique of both his and your teaching approaches. And noducking out with a bad ankle this time!!! ( :-) ) All kidding aside, I wish I could make it. I hope its a great success. <> My event is after the August USKMAF TGT Party so TTFN (tata for now) maybe see you in Jackson... Regards, Charles R. Moja Kwan LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "Miguel" To: Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 17:14:17 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: You've got to be kidding me! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net < What many people don't realize is that straight TKD is a sport. Many instructors do, however, add elements of other styles to the curriculum to give the activity a more well-rounded feel. < You've got to be kidding me! ======= Yes I do. After teaching required curriculum I add BJJ, Hapkido, Muy-tai, and good'ol dirty fighting. Miguel http://garciatkd.com [if you can't beat your computer at chess. try kickboxing] --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest