Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 13:00:12 -0700 (PDT) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #262 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Martial arts, martial sports, tradition, etc. (Donnla Nic Gearailt) 2. Re: 5 reasons not to kick to the head (Bruce Sims) 3. Re: Street Arts (Bruce Sims) 4. Head kicks (CKCtaekwon@cs.com) 5. Tkd as a (self) destructive art; jurus; t'aekkyeon (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 6. RE: Grappling in Kata? (Calvin Berlin) 7. Grud reveals ancient fighting secrets (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 8. Head Kicks (TNTcombatives@aol.com) 9. Re: Kata grappling? (Ray Terry) 10. djuru (Ray Terry) 11. Re: Re: Judo/yudo (Ray Terry) 12. High vs. low kicking (J. R. West) --__--__-- Message: 1 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Martial arts, martial sports, tradition, etc. Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 10:09:10 +0100 From: Donnla Nic Gearailt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In message <200205222157.WAA10402@rhymer.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> you write: > >Message: 8 >From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" >To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" > >Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 09:21:42 -0500 >Subject: [The_Dojang] Martial arts, martial sports, tradition, etc. >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >I'm sure there's lots of people who disagree with me, but I think intent and >context are the >most important criteria in differentiating the arts, not the techniques >involved. As for the >hypothetical lady that Dave Weller brings up, I'd say that ANY training is >better than none, >but also that t'aekweondo's main aim is rarely if ever to develop >self-defense abilities (by the way, I'm a 4th dan in t'aekweondo, so I have >a little experience in the style). Interesting. My main reasons for doing tkd is that it's fun, I enjoy it, it keeps me fit and develops my co-ordination. If I was primarily interested in self-defense, I would do a short self-defense course and spend and hour every day thence practicing the techniques at home, and get back to basketball/volleyball/whatever the rest of the time. I enjoy doing forms purely for their own sake. I also enjoy sparring as a sport. I find the self-defense aspects useful. I think however the most useful thing I have learned is automatically to get into "fight" mode when someone grabs/approaches me as opposed to freezing, and that sometimes, aggression is justified despite social conditioning that says the contrary ("nice girls don't..."). Donnla. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Donnla Nic Gearailt Language Technology Group, Division of Informatics Research Assistant 2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, Scotland. tel: +44-131-6504656 http://www.iccs.informatics.ed.ac.uk/~donnlan/ --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 07:35:14 -0500 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: 5 reasons not to kick to the head Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Patrick: ".....If you intend to win by grappling, then by all means do not kick to the head, if you intend to win by kicking - then by all means kick to the head. If your opponent intends to drag you to the ground, it matters little if it is after a head high kick, unless of course the head kick landed!....." I can think of five good reason (and teach more) for not kicking to the head (unless you follow Rays' advice and bring the target closer to the ground. 1.) The biomechanics of kick, require that a person reduce their foundation or contact with the ground by 50% by lifting one leg. That leg also constitutes about 20% of the body mass. Essentially what you have done is raised your center of gravity while reducing the foundation that would stablize it. The higher you kick the more unstable you become on your remaining foot. 2.) It is possible to kick high but the higher you kick the greater distance your foot travels (up and down) to return to its original role as part of your foundation and the longer you must sustain an awkward and precarious balance. 3.) It is possible to kick high but the higher you kick the longer the duration that you are vulnerable to having your precarious balance destroyed by another either by attacking the foundation, or seizing the kicking leg. 4.) The head, as target, is easily shifted on the neck and in turn the entire thorax is easily shifted about the waist. Target acquisition is difficult for sport application where the technique is pulled, but very difficult for those occasions where full-contact is necessary. 5.) It is possible to kick high and to become very adept at kicking high. However, there is a matter of diminishing returns. Initially it takes considerable committment to learn the skills and even more to master them. This mastery, in turn requires even more commitment to maintain and especially against the on-going debilitation brought on by age or illness. The result is that unless you want to spend you entire life doing nothing more than living for your skill to be able to injure people with a kick to the head at will at the age of 65, dodging rheumatism, bursitis and arthritis on the way, perhaps never to have actually used the skill at all in your life, it may not be worth it for most folks Absent the need to "showboat" I can't think of anything that can be done (in a self-defense) situation with sound, low kicks to targets waist-level and below that head-high kicks can accomplish--- with with much less risk. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 08:00:51 -0500 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Street Arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Dakin: Welcome back! I am assuming that you are posing from Indiana rather than the Land of the Rising Sun, yes? I wasn't sure how to take what you were saying about Taek Kyon so I don't know if this supports or challenges your position. What I would ask folks to consider are the possible parallels between Taek Kyon specifically and the Korean traditions to a greater degree in light of some traditions we have here in the States. In the last decade two books were published, one having to do with the origins of Hispanic gang culture in California and the other with gang culture in NY at the turn of the century. I think the second work was the basis for a recent film (?). In both works quite a bit of ink was used to underscore the training aspects by which new recruits to gangs were familiarized with street combat and such weapons as knives, cudgeols, chains and irons. To the best of my knowledge these trainings continue, and have even been institutionalized (as such) in the prison systems. I understand that one can actual tell those prisons in which a person has served time by watching the sorts of techniques he uses and how he moves--- not unlike the "styles" we often discuss--- but I can't say I have much hard information about this. The conclusions that I draw from this are that a.) an activity can be an art, and even a combat art without ever being "martial" or military as such. b.) an art, even a non-martial combat art can be passed along informally in the community without benefit of rank, license, certification or set curriculum. c.) (Warning: Personal Opinion :-) ) It is possible to take such a "civil art" and use it for martial purposes, organize it by adding a hierarchy and by-laws, and even draw parallels between the civil art and its military counterparts. However, this does not validate that "civil art" to any greater degree, lend it martial status, or immediately relate it to some larger tradition. My sense is that this is what a number of folks in the TKD/TSD community may have in mind. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 09:30:29 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Head kicks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My daughter, age 13, can kick people in the head at will, in the ring. I have no doubt that she can do so in a street fight also, providing she doesn't slip in grass, dirt, or gravel. I think the surface is the key for those who are blessed with the ability to head kick. I cannot do such head kicks. We both train in TKD. She can head kick, I cannot. Some can, some can't. TKD accommodates us both. Gary Pieratt Castroville Karate Club www.askarate.com Success in life is largely the result of habit. Have a Great Day! --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 08:41:10 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Tkd as a (self) destructive art; jurus; t'aekkyeon Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Chris Holmes wrote a calm entry, offending no-one, and for some reason I felt I had to make a comment. Sorry! Chris wrote: > Taekwondo systems. These people are the best kickers in the world! I have > seen 60 and 70 year old men that could kick twice as fast and much harder > than many men 1/2 their age. Now not all Tae kwon do schools and > practitioners have this proficiency, but you have to respect people that can > kick you in the head twice before you can blink. True. But having been in the art about 20 years, I'd have to say that those people are ones who would be great at ANY martial art. I see a lot more people who wear out their knees and hips, injure their backs, and who break their feet sparring t'aekweondo style. If the first rule of self-defense is to keep oneself healthy, I don't think tkd qualifies. > As far as it not being > useful in self defense, several competitors have been killed from kicks to > the head over the years. And this is a good thing? They were killed in a controlled environment where they fought a single opponent, without weapons, and were not allowed to strike the back or below the waist, and were not allowed to sweep or jointlock or throw. Supporting a sport where people who are PLAYING get killed in the ring does not sound like a good idea. Sorry Chris, but you really hit a sore spot with me. After training in any art for a long time, maybe you always see the warts more than others, but the problems with tkd bother me a lot. I don't want to be part of something where people get killed playing the game, or where people training for self-protection weaken themselves with injuries in the process. And before anyone mentions this, I know that tkd is much safer than most competitive sports, but I've never really been all that much into competitive sports anyways, so that argument doesn't hold a lot of water with me. Ray also wrote: > I do djurus. :) Djuru is apparently the old/traditional spelling. Juru > is the new spelling. Ok, you study under deThouars. That explains it. The "dj" is the Dutch romanization for the term. Herman Suwanda always wrote it as "jurus." One could probably make the argument that saying "djurus" continues the pattern of Dutch colonialism and domination, but of course I doubt I'd say that to one Victor! :) The deThouars training style is very basic but very strong. I hope you occasionally invite some taijiquan people to "push hands" with you! :) Ray also asked about the existence of t'aekkyeon in Japan and China, etc. I probably shouldn't have mentioned it, since I only have one source, which is unsupported by Japanese sources as of yet. If I had to guess, I would say that either t'aekkyeon went to Japan from Korea with Korean immigrants or that the author I was looking at was just mistaken (he wasn't an expert in martial arts anyways!). Stanley Henning is convinced about the Chinese origins of most things Korean, and he has an article or two in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts. Take a look at: http://www.goviamedia.com/ Yours in the arts, Dakin burdickd@indiana.edu --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 08:41:56 -0500 From: "Calvin Berlin" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Grappling in Kata? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Statement: " I've wondered why all TKD kata are practiced alone. They seem to be more meaningful when you have an 'opponent'. Greg " Reply: From my reading and learning of TKD, the poomse (kata) was developed because Martial Arts were at one time banned in Korea. The poomse was developed as a set of movements to sharpen one's skills on their own in private. This tradition lives on today. Poomse is just 1 piece of the TKD puzzle. In my class we do practice these movements against others as a reactionary tool. All the pieces come together when sparring. Hope this helps Pil Sung Cal +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++ This electronic mail transmission contains information from Joy Global Inc. which is confidential, and is intended only for the use of the proper addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us immediately at the return address on this transmission, or by telephone at (414) 671-4400, and delete this message and any attachments from your system. Unauthorized use, copying, disclosing, distributing, or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this transmission is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++ --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 09:16:55 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Grud reveals ancient fighting secrets Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Patrick L wrote: > What is it you are trying to avoid by not kicking high? How are those issues > any different that any other body movement (say a tackle) that requires > motion, balance and exposure? One can avoid falling over by not kicking high. A body movement that requires the least balance and effort is best. As examples I offer the following ancient fighting techniques taught by homo erectus and revealed to me while channeling my past life as Grud of the Big Effing Bear Clan: Caveman Literal Speech Translation Translation ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Gaaaaah! Hopping Bear Kick to shins EeooOW! Bear eats the family plums Testicular squeeze aAaIIIIIII! Bear eats another plum Eye gouge eeek! Angry Female Bear Pinch UUngh.... Female Bear takes Vengeance Knee to testicles Michael Tomlinson also wrote: > You can always come up with > something but if you aren't grappling against a live body you are basically > doing less than dry firing your weapon at a tickle me elmo doll!! I do like > the no nonsense Judo approach that understands that Kata should be done with > a partner and that there is NO substitute for good hard Randori. So I guess you don't like the gun kata tape huh? My question would be, "what if your health does not allow a 'good hard Randori'?" Don't you have an older relative with a heart problem or bad back? If they wanted something to practice, wouldn't forms fit the bill? They are, after all, a form of physical conditioning, and at least there is some practice there. Yours in the arts, Grud grud@indiana.edu --__--__-- Message: 8 From: TNTcombatives@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 11:55:36 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Head Kicks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings All, In a self defense situation, no technique should be discounted. Yes, high kicks can get you into a world of hurt, but then so can a failed throw or lock. During scenario training, I have used head kicks. During real fights, I have used head kicks. The target was open, I had the skill, I used the technique. Same goes for shooting in for a takedown (a very non head hunting technique). Done wrong or missing could put you in a very bad position. If the target presents itself, use a technique best suited...regardless of what that is. No limits. A training partner of mine is JuJitsu trained. He thought the same way, and thought he had all the answers for someone doing high kicks to him. Some sparring and fight training sessions cured him of those ideas. Through application of my foot to his head, he now is a believer in the option of a head kick. Head kicks can work in the right situation, don't limit your SD options. Mark Gajdostik Mark Gajdostik --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Kata grappling? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 11:03:52 PDT Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I respect everyones opinion on here and I also understand that certain > drills can be practiced alone, but you cannot, I repeat cannot learn to > grapple effectively unless you have a live body going against you,, True. But that in no way negates the usefullness of kata to the Karate student. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 11:06:08 PDT Subject: [The_Dojang] djuru Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > I do djurus. :) Djuru is apparently the old/traditional spelling. > > Juru is the new spelling. > > Ok, you study under deThouars. That explains it. The "dj" is the Dutch > romanization for the term. Herman Suwanda always wrote it as "jurus." Yes, Guru Suwanda (RIP) did switch to the new spelling. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Judo/yudo To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 11:10:21 PDT Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Ive heard that Japanese Judo as taught by Prof Kano has changed in the last > 20 years and was more rough and Martial before that. I have heard that > Korean Yudo is closer to the Judo that Prof Kano taught? I am a HApkido > practioner , can anyone with a Judo background set us straight? The change you refer to was probably more in the late 40s, 50s and 60s than in the last 20 years. Unfortunately in the last 20 years Judo participation seems to have declined significantly, esp in the US. Some might claim that the above change and the associated introduction into the Olympics had something to do with that. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "J. R. West" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 13:15:50 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] High vs. low kicking Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just a thought or two. > Let me throw one more thought into the pot about high or low kicking. Let's > consider the target rather than the kick. The further away from the ground > that the target is, the less influenced by the kick, for example, if you > watch a reed blowing in the wind, the top moves much farther than the > bottom, and if you to attempt to knock the reed over, you would certainly do > better to strike it nearer to the base than to the top. This being said, > remember that a person's head, because of the flexibility inherent in the > neck, torso, hips and legs, will give with a strike much more than the knees > or ankles, meaning the more stationary the target, the more energy that will > be absorbed by that target on impact. It has been my personal observation > that I am much less likely, at my age, to be pursued by a one-legged man, > than I am to be caught by someone with a severe headache. When I first > started training, I knew nothing of martial arts, and I would ask some > pretty stupid questions out of ignorance of my situation, such as "how come > we don't ever kick above the waist?". The response I got to this one was, > "if you want to kick to the head, first break the knee and knock your enemy > to the ground, then a kick to the head is much easier". I am not saying that > high kicking is ineffectual, only that I believe that in most situations the > low kicks are less likely to backfire on you. I once saw a friend of mine > from Louisiana attempt to kick another martial artist in the head during a > semi-friendly dispute in a parking lot. It seems my friend forgot that > fresh jeans just won't stretch that far, and he landed on his backside. His > intended victim started laughing so hard that the situation was completely > defused and we all laugh about it to this day. J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest