Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 15:08:15 -0700 (PDT) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #264 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. "Martial Art" stuff (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 2. Okinawan improvised weapons (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 3. grapple with Kata (Charles Richards) 4. High kicks and forbidden arts (Calvin Berlin) 5. Tae Kwon Do (Chris Holmes) 6. different ways (Ray Terry) 7. awareness training for kids (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 8. [ASLET] NYC officer shot/wins gunfight (Ray Terry) 9. Memorial Day (US) (Ray Terry) 10. ATAMA National Convention (Ray Terry) 11. Head kicks (Patrick L) 12. Re:head kicks/fights/Karate Champ Video games (TNTcombatives@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 07:40:32 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] "Martial Art" stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Dakin: ".....Bruce wrote about "martial arts" and made a differentiation between: arts, combat arts, martial arts, civil arts, etc. My main reservation with this discussion is that I'm not sure it really defines what we mean. Is loading a howitzer a "martial art"? Is flower arranging a "civil art"? The terminology just doesn't seem precise enough for me......" Sometimes when I read or participate in discussions I have a hope for a particular direction or outcome. I have to tell you, Dakin, that there are some discriminations that I think are important but I am hard-pressed to express. At the risk of making the waters more murky than they are I want to toss out a few more points along the lines of the "howitzer/flower arranging" example you gave. a.) If a civilian teaches a skill common to civilian life to a group of military personnel, does that skill then become "martial"? b.) If a military person teaches a combative skill to civilians does that skill remain "martial"? c.) If a military person teaches a NON-combative skill to civilians (ie. wilderness survival skills) do these skills constitute a "martial art"? Some additional thoughts I have are the following. 1.) It seems that the use of "martial art" is a relatively new contrivance. I can't seem to find much use of it in its presence use (to identify Oriental combative arts) prior to WW II. Perhaps this is something like the use of the term "bunkai" (J. "analysis") which is thought to have been first used by OS Miyagi to identify applications for various kata moves. Its now pretty much common use among both Okinawan and Japanese Karate traditions. Maybe its something like the term "Master" and "Grandmaster" which don't seem to crop up in the media until the later 60-s (BLACKBELT magazine, wasn't it?). 2.) My sense is that the term "martial art" is used most often to invoke a sense of structure or authority after the manner of military rank, order of battle and the like. In this way it would be something like invoking the title "Hwa Rang" or "Marine Corp" to suggest a certain way of thinking rather than to actually suggest that whatever it is that you are doing came from these institutions. 3.) (Warning!!!! Personal Opinion Follows :-) ) Perhaps its just me, but I am coming to believe that the idea of "martial art" has become counter-productive. IMPE I find that my students don't mind training hard, but they are the first ones to tell you that they didn't sign-up for "boot camp". Encouragement, support and guidance win out over yelling and frenetic activity. I tend to down-play the idea of what I teach as coming from military applications as well as being related to warriors of old. I find little in the literature to support it, and most of the students have a hard time relating to it (The battlefields of 16th century Korea are just too far removed from the suburbs of Illinois.) On the otherhand, I increasingly talk about how the skills I teach were a part of the Korean community life--- maybe not unlike the local boxing classes and clubs we have today at the YMCA. I'm not saying that there isn't a place for the Testosterone Crowd, only that perhaps they have held the lime light too long. Just some thoughts. BTW: Dankin: Drop me a line when you are settled. I would like to run some thoughts by you about EJMAS, JAMA and a couple of points I mentioned to Joe. Thanks. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 08:35:23 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Okinawan improvised weapons Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net John Wallace wrote: > I wonder if Calvin might be thinking of the Okinawan roots of karate, > where the Japanese occupiers forbid the individual ownership of weapons > - thus leading the the development of the kama, nunchaku, tonfa, etc as > improvisational weapons. Actually, the Okinawan kings outlawed ownership of weapons by the peasants before the Japanese did, and the use of the weapons traditionally described as "improvised" probably predates the Japanese occupation of Okinawa. The sickle (kama) was used as a weapon by any angry farmer in the past, just like the shotgun is now their tool in the U.S. (ex. a "shotgun wedding"). The flail (nunchaku) was also often used (in Europe as well as East Asia). The tonfa and sai seem largely specialized to East Asia, but there we find them in use in Southern China (the tonfa is a lot like the Chinese crutch, which has systems based around it) and Indonesia (the sai is like the tjabang described by Draeger). We would expect this given the fact that Okinawa was an island and trade moved easily between those three regions. Add to all of this the fact that Okinawan karate was primarily practiced by the nobles of Okinawa, NOT the farmers, and the old legend of "improvised weapons" tends to disintegrate. Yours in the arts, Dakin burdickd@indiana.edu --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 07:32:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] grapple with Kata Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net and I actually practiced tai chi for a while and really loved it,, I just don't think you can learn to "grapple" using a one person form or kata,,, that's all. Michael Tomlinson Most good Kung Fu includes Taijiquan as it's root and/or foundation. Most good advanced Taijiquan instructors can/will teach you the grappling applications of the motions in the form (if you ask or are senior enough to be shown...). But most of us can/could see the balance breaks, weight transfers, weight drops, and albeit "slow motion" strike applications. Combined with a knowledge of five element medicine, I'd say a Taijiquan player would be pretty dangerous in a self defense situation :-) My point is Patterns often do contain "self defense" grappling, pressure point and/or joint manipulation information in them, some obvious and some "hidden." FWIW, I'll be the first to agree that practicing them with a partner is more meaningful, fun, and necessary if you want to apply them in a real life dynamic situation. However, practice without a partner will still develop the gross motor skills, fluidity, balance and coordination needed to make the technique work, it is missing the timing and dynamic components a partner adds. You could almost follow this logic to see how past Sensei might teach only the Kata to beginners, and add the bunkai as the skill of the player improved... So Michael, I respectfully disagree. You can learn grappling techniques by doing one person forms. And I agree, you will be able to apply them better, and better in a dynamic situation if you practice with a partner. Stirring the Pot, Charles R. Moja Kwan LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 09:30:53 -0500 From: "Calvin Berlin" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] High kicks and forbidden arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dakin Burdick respoded: "Sorry Calvin. TKD pumse are derived from Japanese kata. Some martial arts were banned in Korea during the Japanese occupation, but the Japanese actually introduced judo and kendo, and in the last years of the occupation, karate (which was called tangsudo, kongsudo, or kweonbeop)." Thank you for your response. TKD has a lot of influences and perhaps a majority of it is from the Japanese. This wasn't the thrust of my comment. I was speaking to the concept of forms, poomse, or kata. The concept of practising martial arts in Korea by oneself was in part driven by the illegality of praticing martial arts. I was not referring to the Japanese occupation starting in 1910. I was thinking of the Li dynasty (1832-1910) when martial arts were forbidden and their masters were persecuted. Their practising was illegal but continued in secret. Pilsung Cal +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++ This electronic mail transmission contains information from Joy Global Inc. which is confidential, and is intended only for the use of the proper addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us immediately at the return address on this transmission, or by telephone at (414) 671-4400, and delete this message and any attachments from your system. Unauthorized use, copying, disclosing, distributing, or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this transmission is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++ --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Chris Holmes" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 10:33:14 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Tae Kwon Do Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Burdick, it seems my post was offensive. Let me try to clarify what points I was trying to make. The first point I was trying to make is that greatness should be acknowledged where ever it is found. I really do not like golf but I respect the level of competition and ability that Tiger Woods has brought to the game. I don't have a clue what Stephen Hawking is saying in his book, but I respect his genius all the same. So to restate my point, whether you like Tae Kwon Do or not I think that the system's kicking ability is to be admired. I agree that kicking incorrectly for many years can destroy joints. I know many people in many styles that have broken ankles, feet, legs, and other assorted body parts. Many hapkido pracitioners injure shoulders and wrists,and many judo players get broken feet. The second point I was trying to make is that head kicks are devestating when landed. Is it difficult to get a clean shot, sure. Is it impossible, absolutely not. Do I think people getting killed in a friendly competition is good, not at all. People get killed everyday. Automobiles kill thousands more people per year than Tae Kwon Do, but most people continue to drive. You may be asking what my point is with this last statement. Quite simply, life is fraught with pain, injury, and the possibilty of death every day. Tae Kwon Do isn't your thing, it isn't even my thing but I think it has many positive points that we appreciate. This whole idea of my style being the absolute best in the world has to have some limits. I think my style, Han Mu Do is the greatest thing I have ever seen. This does not mean that I can not learn anything from other styles or that they have no value. You find whatever you seek. If you seek faults with something, you will find faults, by the same token if you seek the positive you will (hopefully) find something positive. You have many years of experience on me. You have surely seen much more than I have, but I would challenge you to try to find 5 positive things about Tae Kwon Do. Maybe your mind is so made up that you can't. Well I have to get back to educating the masses of hormone crazed teenagers, I bid you good day! Sincerly, Chris Holmes _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 9:48:17 PDT Subject: [The_Dojang] different ways Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net wrt the recent thread on grappling, just some perhaps worthless thoughts... I am frequently as guilty as anyone in thinking that the best way to train is the way that I train. e.g. there is the no or light contact sparring I did in TSD with the full contact sparring in did in TKD. I feel that TKD's full contact sparring is the Best(TM) way to go, assuming you have the same interest, ability and goals that I have (whatever those may be). Some things are black and white, but some things are also grayscale (in my computer-nerd speak). There isn't always one Best way, there are often different ways. There are differences in sparring, from TKD's approach to Muay Thai's to TSD's to Judo's to the UFC's to ... There are differences in how to run/teach a class or a training session, from Muay Thai's gym approach to TKD's rigid military approach to Aikido's less rigid non-military approach. There are also differences in how techniques are viewed, from Hapkido's bust-em-up approach to Aikido's see-it-from-your-attacker's view approach. There are even differences in grappling, from Karate-do's standup grappling to Sumo's grappling to submission to Sambo to Judo to Taekkyon. As I have boringly stated above, I do have my own prefs. But I also feel it is of great interest to look at things from different perspectives as one will frequently encounter 'a way' (Do?) that had previously never entered the mind. Ray "Likes to bust-em-up" Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 12:53:26 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] awareness training for kids Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net hi folks! i've been doing some self defense work with my kids class (and adults class, too). yesterday, we had a practical class where the kids came to class in whatever they wore to school. i donned my protective gear (run of the mill tkd sparring gear along with some baseball catcher's top of foot/shin/thigh guards. we went out to the playground and i proceeded to try to kidnap each child (one at a time) and take them to my nearby car. the rules were that they could do anything. if they felt hurt or i felt hurt, they or i could yell "stop". for biting, eye gouging, scratching, they had to have their mouth or hand in the specific vicinity of that attack and yell "bite", "gouge" or "scratch". whatever arm or area they bit, gouged, whatever, would be deemed out of commission for a few moments if their technique was good enough. (a few kids yelled bite without having their mouth anywhere near me :)) it was an eye opener for some of them. i had one or two kids who fought like alain's cat fluffy at bathtime. some of the others were middle of the road. others still were having too much fun beating on me to try and run away. after the latter type of kids, i paused for a mini lecture on the seriousness of the subject should it ever become a reality for them. we're planning on doing some specialized programs for kids self defense seminars. the parents liked it that much. some were in the back telling their kids to fight like hell. future seminars will be open to the public. now for my question: we spoke some of awareness, but i'd like to do some types of exercises with the kids to develop and test their awareness to make the lesson more in depth. does anyone have ideas for this type of exercise? thanks! melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy http://www.cjmaa.com Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.cjmas.com Toll Free: 1-877-847-4072 Proud Sponsor of the 2001 10th Annual US Open TKD Championships --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry To: policedo@martialartsresource.net, eskrima@martialartsresource.net, the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 13:19:30 PDT Subject: [The_Dojang] [ASLET] NYC officer shot/wins gunfight Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarded message: >Here's a good example when teaching goal orientation to students: > >As to sharing info, a NYC police officer was shot in the hand yesterday >during an attempt to purchase handguns that went bad. Here's the good >part. The undercover officer and another officer were able to return fire >against the four or five (still not sure about the number) bad guys trying >to take them out. After the injured officer returned fire and emptied his >magazine, he found he couldn't chamber a round after changing mags. He had >the presence of mind, in the midst of a gunfight, to put out his gun to his >partner who (also having presence of mind) chambered the first round for >him. Good guys win. Bad guys go to jail and hospital. > >I liked the goal orientation of the officer after being shot. He certainly >didn't panic, even though the round traveled up from his palm through his >arm and up to his elbow! > >Elizabeth A. Kennedy --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, policedo@martialartsresource.net, eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 13:32:34 PDT Subject: [The_Dojang] Memorial Day (US) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This Monday is Memorial Day in the US. Hailing from a small town in southern Ohio that claims to have the oldest continuously running Memorial Day Parade in the country, Memorial Day has always been special to me. First called Decoration Day because we were to take time out to decorate the graves of our fallen soldiers, it was later changed to Memorial Day to also celebrate those that went 'over there' and made it home alive. Please take the time to remember, decorate -and- be thankful. IMO we should also include the civilians that gave their all on 9/11. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -- Dr. Seuss --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, policedo@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 13:49:02 PDT Subject: [The_Dojang] ATAMA National Convention Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net American Teachers Association of the Martial Arts (ATAMA) National Convention & Awards Banquet Circus Circus Hotel & Casino Reno, Nevada August 2-3, 2002 Styles represented: Shoalin Kenpo, Judo, Taekwondo, Danzan Ryu, Shoshin Ryu, Goju Shorei Karate, Kodenkan Jujitsu, Shuri Ryu, Isshinryu, Shudokan, Taichi. Seminar details available at http://www.atama.org --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Patrick L" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 14:47:10 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Head kicks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello John, I like your thoughts. IMHO all technique will land less than 50% of time in a fight, be they palm strikes, elbow strikes, leg kicks or high kicks. So to me your requirement of 90% success for head-high kicks seems a bit high. Good luck on your Black Belt test! Patrick >The distinction might be made, if you're fast&flexible enough to throw a >head high kick, that's great..you might be able to use it effectively. When teaching self-defense, the favored movements are the high-percentage hit ones, right? If you can hit hard and fast with a head-high kick, 90% of the time, great. I think the common belief is grounded in the fact that for a large proportion of the population, head kicks aren't a high-percentage technique. They are for me though :) Still don't think I'd lead with one in a SD situation though. I like leg kicks, palm heel and elbow strikes.< John Wallace 1st gup, TKD _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 17:59:31 -0400 From: TNTcombatives@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:head kicks/fights/Karate Champ Video games Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Mark, what was the situation in which you threw head kicks in a real fight? Sure...here goes. On my way into a local dept. store, a couple w/a baby stroller were exiting the main doors through the yellow painted 'pedestrian' zone..along with a dozen other people. The zone is protected on both ends by speed bumps. I drove through the zone and the mommy decided to cross w/o looking, leading w/ her baby stroller of course. Even though I was only going 6 mph or so, when I locked up the brakes they made a loud noise...the father took exception to the fact and yelled that I was trying to run over his wife and child...I told them to look before stepping out next time. We parked, and went into the store. We were half way down the main isle, and the father came back into the store. He was at a dead sprint for me, cussing, frothing, swearing, telling me he was gonna pound me, and yelling sweet nothings to me. I pulled a shopping cart b/n us, and directed my wife behind me. I told the guy in no uncertain terms to go away...The gent shoved the cart at me. We were on opposite sides of the cart and he was showing no intent on leaving. He brought his hand up to punch at me, so I did a left leg round to the right side of his head, medium force over the cart. He fell backward, and I told him again to leave or there would be serious problems. I maintained the obstacle b/n us, and took pre-emptive action. He left without further incident. The head was just about the only target available short of abandoning the obstacle and squaring off...that, and the fact I have a short wingspan, added up to successful use of a head kick. There was also an incident when I was a young guppie. A guy pushed me out of his way while I was playing 'Karate Champ' (remember that video game?) He threw a punch, and I threw a right round kick to the head.....half point...we both connected, but mine had more impact.;-) Ahh, so long ago. Mark. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest