Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 07:40:34 -0700 (PDT) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #270 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: O Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: High Kicking stuff (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 2. RE: Capitalist Pig Stuff (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 3. RE:Not a Pretty Thought (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 4. Re: Louis v. Schmelling (Brian) 5. TSD and Gangs (Charles Richards) 6. RE: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #264 - 12 msgs (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 7. RE:Head Kicks (Dunn, Danny J RASA) 8. Secret knowledge (Charles Richards) 9. Unsavory Characters and Martial Arts (Randall Sexton) 10. subject lines (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 07:29:51 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: High Kicking stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Patrick: "......You have overestimated the loss of foundation. Contact should not be based upon square inches of foot on the ground, but rather load per square inch. Since we have decrease by half our surface, we have doubled the loading, thereby INCREASING our contact....." I'm going to have to think on this one as perhaps what you are saying has merit in a more dynamic or fluid situation. But if I take what you are saying at face value, it would seem that folks wanting to construct a skyscraper would actually want a smaller rather than a broader foundation because a narrower foundation would increase the per-square-foot pressure on the foundation. . It would certainly make sense if the only dynamic one were concerned with were lateral shift at ground level (for example, a slippery walking surface). However, in the case of delivering high kicks there is the matter of various pressures and leverages over the length of the body axis (height of the person) and extending into the kicking leg. I will also return to that matter of diminishing returns. Perhaps as a training tool high kicks help develop a range of skills--- and this is a good thing.( Noone is going to tell Bill Wallace that kicks to the head can't be a viable option.) I think for the typical KMA practitioner, though, if one intends to be out on the mat later in life, perhaps there needs to be some further study on whether the benefits of such training justify the sacifices. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 07:48:27 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Capitalist Pig Stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear ITF Folks: If you were to ask me about the dynamics of the Hapkido Arts community I would probably be on much stronger ground. Unfortunately I can't brag a deep and abiding understanding of the same sort of political workings when it comes to the art of TKD. My reason for posting this message actually has little to do with the political side of ITF TKD as I understand it. In a nutshell, apparently there was a matter of succession and authority in the hierarchy. Of course, what follows are some pretty nasty comments about who did what and to whom, where did the money go and who has the authority to express power over what. So far, no problem. But then, there is the matter of NK being a Communist country and NOW, now I have a problem. Maybe someone could help me understand when an art--- even a martial one-- even an art of questionable martial status---- becomes political or a reflection of the economic system of its host country. If I remember correctly from a previous post TKD is practiced to one extent or another in just about every major country around the World. I would be lying if I said that I agree with the political systems of many countries where TKD is practiced. However, I believe that TKD is a tool, separate from the motives in the heart of the person who weilds that tool. So unless folks involved in this ITF tiff are going to identify TKD as a unique badge of Western Democratic process, or Northern European Commercialism how about we lighten-up on the political implications or affiliations of the players, yes? Best Wishes, "Boot-licking Lackey of the Western Imperialist Running Dogs" --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 08:03:10 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE:Not a Pretty Thought Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Melinda: "......i have to admit, i have heard this before. i was told by my first grandmaster and master that ggangpae, or gangsters and persons of low character were considered to be among those who practised martial arts in general in korea. martial arts were not considered to be something you'd want your kids to train in or teach. however, that's just something i was told and i have no factual references to pass along......" Two quick thoughts along these lines. 1.) Japanese culture has dealt with exactly the same issues during the same time period. Karate in Japan, before it achieved a level of respectibility was considered the realm of street toughes, gangs and criminal elements. I am not speaking of the Yakuza and their more nationalist, or Rightest leanings. Instead I am talking about the street gang member and college-age crowd of activists in the Post-WW II environment. 2.) The culture of Japan and Korea after WW II was fraught with the sort of conflicts that set the stage for the Cold War. Many companies in Japan and Korea hired thugs to keep the peace, dissuade theft and pilferage, enforce anti-labor movements and influence political decisions through selected candidates. Nor were these conflicts always the sort of street-fights seen on TV with Korean/Japanese students squared-off against the police. Rather, think of it more like the "Disappeareds" of Argentina. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Brian" To: Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 08:21:22 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Louis v. Schmelling Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net that would be Joe Louis: For All Time (1984, Brock Peters). good film! Brian <<9. Joe Louis (1914-1981) Boxing Hall of Famer Joe Louis served in the Army during World War II and became a symbol for democracy after beating German boxer Max Schmeling in a one-round bout.>> there's an excellent movie on that bit of history. anyone know the name? melinda --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 06:25:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] TSD and Gangs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The various kwans that were unifying under the TKD name complained about TSD being practiced by thugs and criminals and that's why they wouldn't use the name TSD. With the whole truth always being told about Korean MA history how could I doubt this story? :^) My first instructor earned his Cho Dan in Vietnam and has the MDK pin and certificate. I'll paraphrase a story.... As he explained it Su Bak Players were sometimes refered to as "slicky boys" One occassion found him "in the right time at the wrong place" alone. As he stood to confront the would be assailants they saw his MDK pin on his lapel and started backing away say "ah you slicky boy...cause trouble..." Although outnumbered the would be assailants left. It was assumed that had he been tromped his MDK brethen would have returned the favor. Or put another way MDK players had a reputation for banding together and fighting to win. I guess that would make them "ganglike." OK now let the flames begin :-) IMHO the reason (at the end of the occupation) Korean's wanted to rename Korean Karate (T'ang Soo Do/ Kong Soo Do) is because it was Japanese and reminded them of their oppressor, neh? Might even make you want to "re-invent" forms with the same motions and relate them to fables and historic oral tradition to further instill a sense of nationalism, neh? Thinking Out Loud, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TSD Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 08:37:54 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #264 - 12 msgs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce Simms wrote: > 1.) It seems that the use of "martial art" is a relatively new contrivance. > I can't seem to find much use of it in its presence use (to identify > Oriental combative arts) prior to WW II. In European cultures, boxing and wrestling were called sports because while military arts were things like marksmanship and learning how to drive a tank. The use of "martial art" probably came about after WWII because of more attention to the Japanese arts and to translations of "budo" and "bujutsu." Calvin Berlin wrote: > The concept of > practising martial arts in Korea by oneself was in part driven by the > illegality of praticing martial arts. I was not referring to the Japanese > occupation starting in 1910. I was thinking of the Li dynasty (1832-1910) > when martial arts were forbidden and their masters were persecuted. Their > practising was illegal but continued in secret. Really? What is your source on this one? I haven't heard much about it, and I don't recall Robert Young mentioning it in his article on t'aekkyeon, but there's a whole lot of Korean history out there. Can you name a source? Chris Holmes wrote: > Mr. Burdick, it seems my post was offensive. Nope. It just hit a nerve. > I agree that kicking incorrectly for many years > can destroy joints. My point was that kicking "correctly" for many years can destroy joints. > The second point I was trying to make is that head kicks are devestating > when landed. Sure. But a more frequent outcome of an attempted head kick is one's own head meeting the even more devastating concrete (or one's posterior, if one is lucky like JR West's friend). > Quite simply, life is fraught with pain, injury, and the > possibilty of death every day. Yep. And I probably am too sensitive about TKD, because as an instructor I feel I have personal responsibility for my students. Often we lose track of those who drop out of the arts, but last year I ran into my first black belt student. We discussed training kids, and how he believed his knees were permanently damaged by too many kicks into the air as a teen. I agreed and now he is teaching the kids, but we are stressing kicking into pads rather than simply repeating 1-2-3-etc. > I would > challenge you to try to find 5 positive things about Tae Kwon Do. Ok, but I think the first two are the most convincing... 1. Develops fast, powerful kicks 2. Attracts beginners to the arts 3. Builds aerobic ability 4. Develops flexibility 5. Builds confidence Mark wrote: > and yelling sweet nothings to me. I pulled a shopping cart b/n us, and directed my wife > behind me. I told the guy in no uncertain terms to go away...The gent shoved the cart at me. > We were on opposite sides of the cart and he was showing no intent on leaving. He brought > his hand up to punch at me, so I did a left leg round to the right side of his head, medium > force over the cart. He fell backward, and I told him again to leave or there would be > serious problems. I maintained the obstacle b/n us, and took pre-emptive action. He left > without further incident. The head was just about the only target available short of > abandoning the obstacle and squaring off...that, and the fact I have a short wingspan, added > up to successful use of a head kick. Cool! I'm especially appreciative of using the shopping cart as a shield. I'm still not convinced that kicking the guy in the head was the best idea, but if it worked, so much the better! > There was also an incident when I was a young guppie. A guy pushed me out of his way > while I was playing 'Karate Champ' (remember that video game?) He threw a punch, and I > threw a right round kick to the head.....half point...we both connected, but mine had more > impact.;-) Ahh, so long ago. Why didn't you do that cool flip over the guy and then kick him from the back? That was always my favorite move. Well, at least you didn't drop into a full reverse punch and make his brain puff out of his head like a big pink balloon. (By the way, for those who are a little younger, those were moves in Karate Champ). "Elevator Action" was another favorite of mine. :) Take care, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 08:49:22 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE:Head Kicks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good post Patrick!!! I do not teach that high kicking is the best strategy to use in a self defense situation, in fact, just the opposite. However, I am a kicker and have been doing it for 29 years. I believe that there are lots of situations where head kicks can be used effectively. And let me add that in challenge type situations, nothing ends the aggressors will to continue faster than a good kick to the head. Been there and seen it several times. I agree with Patrick, that I've always heard about the danger of having a kick caught, but I don't intend to give the opponent that opportunity. Personally, I worry more about someone who knows how to counter with leg and other low kicks than someone trapping my leg. But again, I don't intend to give someone I think has the ability to use those techniques the opportunity. My experience has shown that high kicks are effective and safe when properly used, just like any other type of technique. All hypotheses and suppositions aside, train hard and do what you know. Danny Dunn <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<I can think of five good reasons not to kick to the head< Well you have one good reason, and 4 peices of fluff let's examine ... >1.) The biomechanics of kick, require that a person reduce their foundation >or contact with the ground by 50% by lifting one leg. That leg also >constitutes about 20% of the body mass. Essentially what you have done is >raised your center of gravity while reducing the foundation that would >stablize it. The higher you kick the more unstable you become on your >remaining foot.< You have overestimated the loss of foundation. Contact should not be based upon square inches of foot on the ground, but rather load per square inch. Since we have decrease by half our surface, we have doubled the loading, thereby INCREASING our contact. I intend to put more than 20% of my body mass into the kick (and thereby their head) This is a good thing. >2.) It is possible to kick high but the higher you kick the greater distance your foot travels (up and down) to return to its original role as part of your foundation and the longer you must sustain an awkward and precarious balance.< Walking is awkward and precarious to the very young and the very old - even still - I encourage it! In addition, after contact is made - foot to head - measurement of return trip is likely superflous. >3.) It is possible to kick high but the higher you kick the longer the duration that you are vulnerable to having your precarious balance destroyed by another either by attacking the foundation, or seizing the kicking leg.< Thinking your opponents balance is precarious, and wanting to grab his leg does not make it so. In addition, grabbing a leg usually results in eating fist, sometimes causes a moment of hopping, once in a while will upset the kickers balance, and RARELY results in a fall by the kicker. And then in this very unlikely event of him falling, you must then capitalize on it, non grapplers don't. I KNOW because we kick and throw. >4.) The head, as target, is easily shifted on the neck and in turn the entire thorax is easily shifted about the waist. Target acquisition is difficult for sport application where the technique is pulled, but very difficult for those occasions where full-contact is necessary.< I agree, the head and thorax is easily shifted. Unfortuanately in so doing, the defender is moving his gyroscope, in addition to his center of gravity. The defender gets disoriented, dizzy, and loses balance. And once disoreinted, the target is even easier to acquire, and once acquired, and hit, since it is a large weight on a little spindle, hit with tremendous force, the eyes roll back and the nose gushes. >5.) It is possible to kick high and to become very adept at kicking high. >However, there is a matter of diminishing returns. Initially it takes >considerable committment to learn the skills and even more to master them. >This mastery, in turn requires even more commitment to maintain and >especially against the on-going debilitation brought on by age or illness. >The result is that unless you want to spend you entire life doing nothing >more than living for your skill to be able to injure people with a kick to >the head at will at the age of 65, dodging rheumatism, bursitis and >arthritis on the way, perhaps never to have actually used the skill at all >in your life, it may not be worth it for most folks< No disagreement here, so stop moving, sit on a pillow, never practice, and you will have a fully functinal body throughout an uneventful life. Wow, I think I will give up eating bacon too! >Absent the need to "showboat" I can't think of anything that can be done >(in a self-defense) situation with sound, low kicks to targets waist-level >and below that head-high kicks can accomplish--- with with much less risk. >FWIW.< Except a one kick knock-out. FWIW - I only disagree with the opinion that high kicks are bad. I have never said they are better (or worse) than any other option. I believe it is always a good idea to use a skill your opponent does not have. Getting in the WAY Patrick>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 07:18:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] Secret knowledge Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Secret (kept from the knowledge of any but the initiated or privileged) techniques, if not shared by one's instructor can frequently be rediscovered. Correct, and in today's technology we have the digest, interactive CD's, martial arts books, magazine articles, accupressure/accupuncture books and USKMAF seminars to helps us rediscover what inquiring minds want to know... The KMAs of the 40s and 50s were, for the most part, led by beginners to the martial arts. The most advanced person, a 5th Dan, disappeared during the Korean War. The next most advanced, a 3rd Dan, returned to Japan to live. After that we had either 1st or 2nd Dans or some that learned a little Kung Fu and/or Taekkyon and/or learned from books. OK I'll guess Byung In Yoon of the Chang Mu Kwan was the 5th Dan lost in the Korean war? and Won Kuk Lee (Yi) was the Shotokan 3rd Dan? And the Kung Fu/Taekkyon book reader must be Hwang Kee :-) ...these students may not have been sufficiently 'privileged') and more that they had just not progressed far enough in their training to be taught certain things. But for the interested, bright and talented new things can frequently be uncovered by creative training and thought. e.g. take the movement that is usually taught as a downblock... in how many other ways can that same movement be used? Neh :-) Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TangSooDo Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Randall Sexton" To: Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 09:34:58 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Unsavory Characters and Martial Arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Melinda, has anything changed today! "i have to admit, i have heard this before. i was told by my first grandmaster and master that ggangpae, or gangsters and persons of low character were considered to be among those who practised martial arts in general in korea. martial arts were not considered to be something you'd want your kids to train in or teach. however, that's just something i was told and i have no factual references to pass along. take care, melinda" Randall Sexton www.laughinghara.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 07:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] subject lines Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Folk, Please remember to update the subject line of your posts. Thanks. Ray Terry --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest