Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 18:00:48 -0700 (PDT) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #273 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Slicky boys (ABurrese@aol.com) 2. Re: ITF stuff (Piotr Bernat) 3. Ji Han Jae Seminar in Tn (Chris Holmes) 4. RE: Bruce, please clarify (Dunn, Danny J RASA) 5. Re: Ji Han Jae Seminar in Tn (Ray Terry) 6. www.killology.com (Ray Terry) 7. Korean term question (Sun Mu Kwan-USA) 8. more ITF info (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 00:34:27 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Slicky boys Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The term slicky boy(s) was used frequently when I was with the 2nd ID in Korea in the 80s. Used to refer to anyone who would steel stuff (such as military equipment) to then go sell. The time fellow sniper instructor Eric caught one trying to swipe some stuff outside his hooch was humorous. I met Eric coming up an alley I was going down. He had the guy around the throat and was bouncing him off the brick wall every couple of steps. I asked what happened and he told me he caught him trying to swipe stuff. I went along to the S-5 office. (S-5 office dealt with problems between soldiers and Koreans) I knew the guy on duty, we had served in the same company at Bragg in the States. Eric told him he caught the guy trying to rip him off. Rush asked why the guy looked so beat up. "He fell, Eric replied. Rush looked at me, "Suppose you saw him fall Burrese?" "Yep, he fell." "Good enough for me." Eric went home and I had to still go buy the beer and get back to my buddies who were waiting on me since it was my turn for the beer run and that's what I was doing when I met Eric in the alley... They forgave me being late when I told them what happened. Yours in Training and catching slicky boys, Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Piotr Bernat To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 09:17:20 +0200 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ITF stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Am I to understand that there are, then, TWO ITF and that these two organizations are mutually exclusive in that they have expelled each others members and withdrawn recognition of the rank and status of each others' members? Yes, the are two ITF HQs now. Many masters who had contacts with Master Choi were expelled from General Choi`s ITF and of course welcomed with open arms in Master Choi`s ITF. I`m not a member of either one but from what I see, the only group expelling members is the Vienna HQ. The Canadian HQ has more open approach, even with some former ITF members re-joining them. > > Does it follow that former ITF members of the single organization will now be compelled to align with one organization or the other? At present, the majority of NGBs decided to stay with Vienna HQ, but also a number joined forces with Master Choi. I wonder how the numbers will look like when the General passes away. > Am I understanding correctly that the problem arises directly from the confusion between what constitutes a true multi-national organization dedicated to an activity and what is essentially a matter of patri-linear succession where such was assumed but never actually guarenteed or agreed upon by the membership? I think so. Meeting the ITF people in my country, the one fact that puzzled me was a certain conflict. ITF should be, as I understand, a democratic organisation promoting a certain style of TKD worldwide. On the other hand, General Choi`s position in the "old" ITF seems much stronger that required by the democratic procedures (the old question - who dares to argue with the Founder). As I said I`m not ITF member, but the way it works was always a mystery to me. Best regards -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Chris Holmes" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 07:19:39 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ji Han Jae Seminar in Tn Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello to all, I am trying to get more info. on Gm Ji's seminar in Tn. I have checked the website listed and not found anything. I have e-mailed only to have it bounced back to me. I have called to find a voice mailbox that is continuously full. I want to know how much Gm Ji will be instructing, is he bringing some of his people and so forth. Will someone in the know please let me know by posting, by email, or by phone? Thanks, Chris Holmes 601-876-9898 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 07:58:11 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Bruce, please clarify Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, I'm not sure I understand your statement--question. But my understanding is that the decision was already made and ratified by vote that Choi, Jung Hwa was the leader. When some of the people in power, and possibly Gen Choi didn't like the direction he was taking they staged a coup to regain power. What I don't understand is the first part, are you indicating that a "true multi-national org dedicated to an activity" can't have patri-lineal leadership, or that patrilineal succession in some way precludes "tru multi-nationalism". Danny Dunn <<<<<<>>>>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Ji Han Jae Seminar in Tn To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 10:38:54 PDT Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I am trying to get more info. on Gm Ji's seminar in Tn. I have checked the > website listed and not found anything. I have e-mailed only to have it > bounced back to me. I have called to find a voice mailbox that is > continuously full. I'll try calling Gm Ji to see if it is still on. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net, the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, policedo@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 18:16:10 PDT Subject: [The_Dojang] www.killology.com Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Of possible interest... http://www.killology.com Killology Research Group The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill Killology, (n): The scholarly study of the destructive act, just as sexology is the scholarly study of the procreative act. In particular, killology focuses on the reactions of healthy people in killing circumstances (such as police and military in combat) and the factors that enable and restrain killing in these situations. This field of study was pioneered by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, in his Pulitzer-nominated book, On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 16:58:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Sun Mu Kwan-USA To: Dojang digest Subject: [The_Dojang] Korean term question Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Can anyone tell me what Bang Tu Ki or Bang Tul Ki means? Thanks! ===== Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 18:37:36 PDT Subject: [The_Dojang] more ITF info Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarded message: May 29, 2002 An open letter to Master MacCallum from Mr. Terence Geoghegan May 29, 2002 Dear Master MacCallum: It is with great sadness that I write this letter. I have held my tongue for the longest time, in spite of my concern over the increasingly bizarre pronouncements coming out of Vienna, not only because of my respect for you as an International Master Instructor, and as a senior administrator of the ITF, but also because I considered you a steadfast and generous friend, who had earned my personal admiration, as well as my professional respect. For those who do not know of the many kindnesses that you showed me, I relate this story. In doing so, I need refer to no notesalthough these events transpired some thirteen years ago, I remember them as if they were yesterday. In the summer of 1989, as a second Dan, I arrived in Vienna, halfway through a five-year motorcycle trek around the northern hemisphere, as I pursued my degree in law. As my traveling partner and I were about to cross for the first time into the then-Soviet Bloc, we sought contacts in the ITF who might ease our travel through strange lands. Your help was invaluable. It wasn't only that you provided us introductions to instructors such as Mr. (now Master) Toni Nobilo, who would give us information in Zagreb that would prove critical in seeing us safely through the conflict in Croatia. Or like Mr. (now Master) Stilianidis, who would help us to find lodging near Thessaloniki, and give me the opportunity to both train and teach in his school. There were others as well, in Hungary and elsewhere, who aided our passage, whom we would not have met without your introduction. But more than that, you helped us in Vienna, allowing me to both train at the ITF Headquarters and to teach the juniors there, as well as to teach at the American School in Vienna. In August of 1989, you graciously tested me for my third Dan. I say this to make clear that I have no personal dispute with you, let alone any rancor. But you have recklessly taken actions that have transcended the limits of personal loyalty, and have caused great harm to many others to whom I owe even greater loyalty. I speak here not only of my own instructor, but also of my own students, and of those who will come after. You have chosen to cross lines from which you should have stood back, and now you cannot look to place the blame elsewhere for your own folly. Even back in 1989, it was apparent that Headquarters was staffed almost exclusively by North Koreans, but you had an explanation that seemed to make sense at the time. You explained that General Choi was, in essence, persona non grata in South Korea, and that it was only natural that he would therefore surround himself with the only fellow countrymen with whom he could associate. In retrospect, my acceptance of this explanation seems naive in the extreme. Two queries, at least should have occurred to me, and should occur to any thinking person: 1) Were there no South Koreans at all who were willing to, or forced to, join the General in his exile? Obviously there werefor their absence from Headquarters, there must be other explanations. 2) Considering the sheer impossibility of any North Korean leaving that country without the leave of his despotic government, was the very presence of these instructors not proof positive of their status as agents of the security services of North Korea? Of course it was; to suggest otherwise would indicate a level of credulity not to be readily accepted. But at the time, I did not consider these obvious problems with your explanations. For many years thereafter, I did not return to these subjects, although I did, on more than one occasion, draw the ire of senior members of the USTF for calling attention (as I had done since approximately 1984) to the inescapableand obviousfact that no plans were being made to provide for an orderly succession in the ITF, upon the eventual retirement or death of the founder. Similarly (and with equally uncomfortable result), I had pointed out that the USTF itself would soon be left to drift, for failure of any plan for succession upon the eventual retirement or death of then-Master (now Grand Master) Sereff. Approximately three years ago, I again wrote to Grand Master Sereff, pointing out the dangers of the ITF making no plans for an orderly succession. In this letter, I warned that, without an orderly succession, we would soon all be expected to take our orders from the North Koreans. This communication drew a particularly sharp rebuke from a senior Master of the USTF, who asked me how I dared to suggest such a thing, since Grand Master Sereff had fought against the Communists. Little did I know, at the time, that the USTF, at its most senior levels, was well aware that the North Koreans were already running the ITF. This information, of course, was quite well known to you, and had been for some time. There are those who would suggest that the teachings of our founder were always meant to be a gift to the peoples of all nations, and it might even be argued that the slaves of despotic regimes are far more in need of such knowledge. However, it is one thing to suggest that such unfortunates should be able to be seated at the table; it is quite another to suggest that the entire operation should be hijacked by a murderous regime in order to appeal to the vanity of, or to satiate the greed of, a criminal few. To suggest that the takeover of the ITF by North Korea is a value-neutral proposition is to reveal depravity, or idiocy, or both. (Grand Master Sereff clearly recognized this when he authorized his response to my impetuous sounding of the tocsin. And yet, of course, the USTF was, or soon would be, up to its collective eyeballs in collusion in exactly this.) One might query, just what is meant when one proudly asserts: "I shall be a champion of freedom and justice." "I shall build a more peaceful world." The bosses of the ITF, in Pyongyang, starve their slaves to death. The U.S. government (as is so often the case) is the leading supplier of relief, buying rice for the North Koreans, to stave off famine, so that the slave-masters can divert their precious and meager supply of hard currency to develop weapons systems to be sold to other totalitarian regimes. Just another nation to benefit from the precious gift of Taekwon-Do, yes? Our art, like many others, has fallen victim to a cult of personality. It has made us blind to megalomania. (Have you not heard the founder compare himself to the Buddha and to Jesus Christ?) It has made us turn away from the knowledge of the most hideous of alliances, such as we are discussing here. (This, of course, is not a failing of martial arts in particular, but of all cults of personality. One can point, as an obvious example, to the tendency of Mother Teresa to shill for such corrupt beasts as Baby Doc Duvalier. And of her sycophants to pretend that it wasn't happening, or to make excuses as obscene as those made by the adherents of General Choi have here.) But this is where it was up to us to stand strong, and keep our art on a justifiable path, one where we could recite the Tenets, and our Student Oath, without snickering at the sick joke. And in this task, we were entitled to look to our leaders. To men like you, Master MacCallum. And in this crucial moment, you failed us miserably. We had a golden moment in Rimini. By whatever miracle, the General would retire, and there would be an orderly succession under a unified ITF, and we would not be dragged down by those who would manipulate the General's understandable reluctance to face the fact that it was time to go, and accept our reverence for his role as the founder, while enjoying a well-deserved retirement. But no. There were geese to be slaughtered lest they should offer more golden eggs. The General might be senescent, or even suffering from senility or dementia, but that didn't mean that he couldn't be manipulated by those who stood to profit from the whoring of the corpse of the ITF to its North Korean masters. And so you crossed your first Rubicon. The "Congress" in Vienna. Or the not-a-Congress, as you claimed it to be, right before the doors slammed shut so that you could conduct the yes-it-is-a-Congress-after-all, and how about that? Allow me to put on the lawyer hat for a moment. The illegality of this farce is so obvious as to be beyond serious discussion, let alone dispute. Here's the bare-bones truth of the matter: where a Constitution requires notice (as did the ITF Constitution), the failure of notice cannot be cured by the mere presence of an "accidental" quorum, without regard to whether or not that quorum was convened in bad faith. That's the law in the U.S.; that's the law in Austria; andask your solicitorthat's the law in your native Scotland. But, of course, you already knew that. This was the inescapable conclusion proffered by the General's own personally-retained counsel, Mr. Michael Tibollo. He was conveniently railroaded out of town as soon as he became..let us say...inconvenient, but no competent lawyer will offer you an opinion at variance from this one. It isn't a close point of law, and you know it. So did Master Renee Sereff and her lieutenant at the time of the vote, of course. But, whether from personal hatred toward Master Choi Jung Hwa, or out of some wildly mistaken delusion of self-interest, they decided to also invest in the sale of the ITF to North Korea. But all of this is prologuethrough all of this, I could hold my tongue. But then you crossed your second Rubicon, and I could hold silent no more. In one of a series of your imperial pronouncements, published at www.itf-generalchoi.com, without comment, and dated only "May, 2002," you claimed: "ITF Members Expulsion "The ITF annouce [sic] the following expulsions, "Fabian Nunez, Floyd Griffin, Mel Steiner, Walt Lang, Raymond Choy, Tham Ying Au, Ted Wolf, Trevor Nicholls, Ray Gayle, Carlos Martin, Antonio Troiano, John Cacioli, Zbigniew Kruk, Steve Weston, Michael Muleta, Robert Wheatley, Chew Teck Seong, Doug Arnold, Albert Camacho, John Rodriguez, Norber Ortiz, Rudolf Kan, Tsilfidis Lazaros, Ageev Vasily, Kan Sergey, Kan Yuri, Suslin Vjacheslav. "This cancels all their certificates and qualifications." And finally I had had enough. How dare you presume to "expel" these fellow practitioners, among whom are those who outrank you? (And tell me, pleaseif I am not mistaken, all of those names that appear after that of Norber Ortiz were recently added, some time after the original publication. Is this list set to grow indefinitely? Or will you start a new one for June? And a longer one for July? A flood of names for August?) Perhaps most unlawyerlike, I shall not much belabor the obvious legal deficiencies in your notice of purported expulsions; I note that Master Steiner, in his analysis of yesterday, May 28, 2002, posted at http://www.itf-information.com/B-28.htm, has succinctly and comprehensively dealt with those. Rather, I will point out how your actions violate the simplest precepts of common sense. There are two ways that you can attempt to explain this vicious nonsense. The first is that there is some sort of "renegade" ITF, separate from the One True ITF in Vienna, a monster that Vienna created when it (in its infinite foolishness) purported to expel Master Choi from the body politic. As ludicrous as this view might be, it does not excuse your attempt to expel any of the senior members listed above, as they had already, and quite publicly, announced their allegiance to Master Choi, and, perforce, according to this view, the "new" ITF. In short, your "expulsion" must fail because you cannot fire people who have already quit. The second explanation is even more wanting. Under this view, there is only one ITF, with an incomplete schism, and a valid power struggle still continuing. This is the only view under which you could claim any right to "expel" anyone, but under this scenario, just whom, Sir, do you think you have the right to speak for? For the General? He's gone, and he isn't coming back. He's outlived his usefulness as your Golem. (Don't believe me? Go to http://www.korea-np.co.jp/pk/, and type "Choi Hong Hi" into the search window. Surprise! And please note that it appears that the General himself has no more use for youlook at the information that the General provided even to the North Koreans, concerning where the ITF is headquartered, and where its website is located. Were you surprised that the General was so quick to wash his hands of you?) Or do you pretend to speak for the voters who thought that they could overturn the results of a lawful election that didn't suit their craven purposes? And what would be the point, in any case? Do you imagine that anyone pays any more attention to your increasingly desperate pronouncements? Here in California, the majority of instructors have cast their lot with Master Choi. But do you imagine for a moment that USTF loyalists will be unwelcome among us? And do you imagine for a moment that the bonds that we have forged will lead USTF loyalists to turn their backs on us? I have spoken to instructors who have announced their intention to remain with the USTF, out of personal loyalty to Grand Master Sereff, until such time as he should die or retire. After that, who will carry your water here? Master DeBaca? Nice gentleman. Nice try. Master Sereff? Please. (And, by the way, let's call a spade a spadeit isn't "sexism," which is the usual excuse given for the common knowledge that Master Sereff commands no personal loyalty. It's because of the widespread perception that her vote at Vienna, to cite just one example, was par for the course.) Let me not be coy here. Let me parse how I see these two conflicting theories by which you might try, in vain, to retain some right to "expel" persons over whom you have no power. There is only one ITF. Master Choi is its only legitimate President. But if this is not universally accepted, we'll stay, and we'll fight it out, and in the endlong after you are as gone as you are now embarrassing and superfluouswe will prevail. I have been as guilty as others as fuzzing the distinction between these two views of the ongoing struggle. For the longest time, I determined that I would not "quit" the USTF; after all, if you have one thousand sailors on a ship, and the captain announces his intent to steam directly into an iceberg, it is hardly rational for all of the sailors to abandon ship. Rather, they have the rightindeed, the dutyto relieve the captain of his command and set the ship right. That is the situation in which the USTF now finds itself. And I had intended to throw down the gauntletto send in my 2002 application, and membership check, and announce, like Martin Luther nailing his infamous theses to the church door in Wittenburg, my challenges to the current idiocies being shopped about in Bloomfield. I fully expected to be "expelled," which would certainly be a legitimate response. Well, it's a bit late for that, yes? Here I am, having accepted a position of senior leadership in a rival organization. No reason to be bashful at this point. But at the international levelwith the ITFnow that's a different matter. Here we stand, and we defy you. You would say of my instructor, Master Robert Wheatley, and others, that your unattributed pronouncement "cancels all their certificates and qualifications"? By what right? By what reason? Have these persons not earned their certificates and qualifications? I note that among the list of those supposedly expelled, we find some of the most active instructors in the world. Unlike those who sit around in business suits, rarely if ever practicing the art. Should we investigate how those types of persons came by their advanced degrees? And who are the members of this mysterious "Consultative Council," to whom you refer in your self-serving rant of March, 2002, and by what mechanism did they concur in these putative "expulsions"? Sir, you had not the right. And before we leave your posting of March, 2002 (which can be seen at www.itf-generalchoi.com), let me comment on one other statement that you made therein: You stated: "We welcome action by anyone to challenge us in a court of law." Now, to the legally unsophisticated, unfamiliar with the burden of proof in a civil action, this may seem like a reasonable invitation, designed to show, by the absence of a formal lawsuit against you, the validity of your actions. You, of course, know better. Could we, in a court of law, demonstrate the illegality of the vote in Vienna? Of course. But aside from creating employment for many lawyers, what would this gain us, that we do not stand to gain by simply awaiting your collapse? Put the shoe on the other foot. If, indeed, we are infringing on your legal right to the name "International Taekwon-Do Federation" by claiming that it is we in Canada, and not you in Vienna, who are the legitimate organization, then why do you not sue us? We have not been reticent about our addresses; your process servers know where to find us. The reason that you have not, and will not, take such action, is that you know full well that you have no legal basis to do so. We can wait, and we will, knowing that the next river your career will cross will be not yet another Rubicon, but the Styx. In closing, allow me a brief note about this curious letter of May 10, 2002, from Master Stilianidis to Master Choi. Master Stilianidis claims to speak, not for any group of individual instructors, but for twenty-eight entire countries. Are we to understand that the original ITF, as opposed to the ITF-North Korea, has not a single adherent instructor in any one of these twenty-eight nations? I am sure that the USTF has made the necessary arrangements to continue its allegiance to the Democratic Peoples' Republic of Korea, and its satellite office in Vienna. Are we therefore to conclude that the original ITF, now headquartered in Canada, has no members in the United States? What are we to make of these curious statements? In a way, you are like the General, Master MacCallum. Perhaps that was your hope, but such a station comes at a price. Like the rising tide, you properly had your time to thunder upon the beach, and to make your mark upon the sand. And like any tide, to recede in the appointed moment, and to make way for others, in the fullness of time, to take their rightful place in the succession of the ages. How sad that you chose instead to be dragged, kicking and screaming, from the proscenium. This letter has not been easy for me. Long ago, in Vienna, when the world seemed younger, we shared the conversation of many an evening. Over a cup of coffee, or over a beer, I thought that we shared a vision. But you have made unfortunate choices, and your time is come, and your time is gone. Please don't subject yourself to more disrepute than you already have. My best to Morag, and to Ruaridh, and to Struan, and, in spite of all, to you. Terence Geoghegan A-6-65 Vice-President and General Counsel, United States International Taekwon-Do Federation Fairfield & Freeman 199 South Figueroa Street Third Floor Ventura, CA 93001 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest