Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 15:25:54 -0700 (PDT) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #275 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: O Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: ITF double-check (Bruce Sims) 2. RE: Warfare Environment (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 3. Re: Slicky boys (SallyBaughn@aol.com) 4. Re: Slicky Boys (ABurrese@aol.com) 5. too ki/bang too ki (MW) 6. A Dojang search (Emactkd@aol.com) 7. He fell :-) (Charles Richards) 8. agnatic succession (Charles Richards) 9. Ask a little - Give a little - forgiveness that is (Patrick L) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 23:54:46 -0500 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ITF double-check Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Danny: "....What I don't understand is the first part, are you indicating that a "true multi-national org dedicated to an activity" can't have patri-lineal leadership, or that patrilineal succession in some way precludes "tru multi-nationalism"...." Nope and absolutely not. :-) I think we both know that its very possible to have a patrilinear succession such as in the Japanese Ryu-ha system which can also be multi-national. It is also very possible to have a federation or association which is multi-national. I think what I was double checking was that the situation which has developed with the ITF was not a case of one situation being represented something else to its membership. It seems there are a lot of MA organizations which freely use terms like "federation" or "association" which I think would be more aptly termed a "proprietorship". Personally I have no problem with any of these organizational forms but get concerned when I think that perhaps one kind of management is being passed-off as another. For instance if there is supposed to be a board of directors, or voting membership, protocols for electing or cashiering leadership and these things are short-circuited perhaps what we have is not, after all, the representative form of management that the organization suggested that it had. Since I am not an ITF person I didn't want to walk away from the discussion without checking the facts. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 07:24:12 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Warfare Environment Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Teressa: ".....You seem to be endorsing a form of behaviour that does not do anything to help promote peace in the world. Nor does it provide a good role model......" I think I understand your strong feelings regarding Alains' characterization as well as the events themselves. Perhaps I can provide some context for such events. When people rail against the evil or the ugliness of war I think its important to remember that such aspects are not limited to what happens on or near a battlefield. For each individual who is actually fighting in combat there are ten to twenty individuals who acting in some support capacity through a network of ranks and units and agencies. The organization is very precarious given that distances, locations, supply routes and communications are in a constant state of flux. Military personnel are taught that though one sees a mountain of goods, theft & black market activities guarentee that sooner or later some individual will do without because somebody else thought their needs were more important. Another point is the sense of betrayal that military folks feel when witnessing that the very people one is trying to help are in fact exploiting or victimizing those coming to their assistance. Yet, another point is that petty theft in one persons' eyes is not the same in other cultures. It is not unheard of that individuals, even soldiers--- of the same side---could be summarily executed when caught stealing, thieving, breaking-in, raping and so forth. The issue lies, not necessarily in the event itself, but rather the need to maintain iron discipline in a very chaotic situation both for the military and the civilian population. In the case that Alain relates I daresay the young man was very lucky that he was caught by an American soldier rather than a member of the Turkish armed forces, who had much more colorful (and lethal) methods for dealing with such things. As I say, I think I understand your distaste and in the best of all possible worlds one would hope that the same individuals who were involved in this memoir would sit down together and rationally discuss the implications of their respective behaviors on the Hwa of the Human experience as well as their own individual growth. Hope springs eternal. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 From: SallyBaughn@aol.com Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 11:20:06 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Slicky boys Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Teressa wrote: << Your friend caught a Korean (likely desperate) >> I don't know when Alain was in Korea; but I know that when I was there (1973-1976) the slicky boys were rarely "desperate." Being a slicky was a job that was chosen by an individual and it paid extremely well -- especially if US personnel were the targets. For a bit of insight, you might try to find a copy of "Korean Patterns" by Pau l S. Crane (published first in 1967, reprinted 1974). As the copy may be hard to come by, I will quote from Chapter 7, Attitudes Toward Crime and Criminals: "A criminal or a suspect in police custody, has embarrassed society. He has become an 'unperson,' regardless of his previous rank. He is required to sit on the floor in a kneeling position with his head bowed during questioning by the police. He must speak high talk to even the lowest office boy in the police station. He may be kicked, slapped, or tortured as the whim of his captors dictates. He has lost the right to be considered a 'person.' . . . "Modern penal codes and prison supervision are doing much to change the treatment of prisoners once they are sentenced to the penitentiary. Before they are sentenced, however, there is little public outcry over how roughly prisoners are handled. . . . "If a burglar breaks into a home at night, the owner has no right to injure him. One should cough discreetly and the burglar will know that the owner knows that he is there, and will withdraw. To shoot a burglar is considered murder. A thief will not usually steal if the house is guarded even by a small servant girl representing the owner. TO LEAVE A PLACE UNGUARDED IS TO INVITE THIEVES TO COME IN AT WILL. ONE DOES NOT DESERVE TO HAVE WHAT HE DOES NOT CARE ENOUGH ABOUT TO GUARD. [my emphasis]. Seeing something left alone, unguarded, the thief considers that he has greater need and appreciation for it than the careless owner. A thief must eat too. . . ." Even 30 years ago, Korea had made a remarkable recovery from the Japanese occupation and the Korean War. While it is smaller than the US, that does not mean it's citizens have less than US citizens. I suspect that the "desperate" thief in Alain's case was no more "desperate" than any of our burglars in the US -- he could have chosen a different profession, but he did not. During the time I lived in Korea, I worked for the US Army Criminal Investigation Division. That organization worked closely with the Korean National Police. More than once, the KNP discussed how "soft" the US was and that they didn't treat criminals with enough physical punishment. Do I agree with this particular cultural thinking? No. In many cases, I was taken aback by some of the behavior I saw. Do I have a right to change the Korean culture? No, I was not a part of the society that decided what that culture would be. If you haven't been (lived) there, I guarantee you don't know enough about the workings of any other country to speak with any authority. You are simply measuring the other country by US cultural ideas. That is not necessarily the only, or even the best, rule of behavior. Sally --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 11:51:00 -0400 From: ABurrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Slicky Boys Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Teressa, You are correct to a point, and the way I do things now is a bit different from the way I did things as a young Airborne Sniper. However, you may be judging without knowing the entire circumstances. I am well aware of much of the things the U.S. Army did and does, etc. I bounced many more Americans off walls in Korea than others. In the village of Kwangamdong, I and the friends I ran with, were very well liked by the owners and workers in the bars and shops because we did treat the Korean people well. Many nights that GIs were being jerks toward the Koreans working in the bars, it was Brian, Frank, Dave and I asking (telling) those kinds to leave. (It was much easier when they left at the asking and the serious looks we had) (But back in those days it was more fun when they didn't. Again, not saying this was "right" but it was the reality of what was going on, and people like Master Rudy T. know what I mean, since we talked about that kind of thing. If you haven't been there, it is hard to understand. And by being there, I mean those kinds of physical experiences.) At the same time, I have little sympathy for someone trying to commit a crime against a good friend and fellow instructor. This was not someone sneaking on base to steal military equipment, but someone sneaking into Eric's HOME. Hooch is the term we used for small apartments off post. The military equipment he would have stolen was Eric's personal gear. What else he would have taken or done, we don't know because Eric caught him. Eric did not hurt the guy bad, just a few bumps, etc. People used to leave Wolf's Karate Studio at Bragg looking worse some times. Now, before you judge Eric's control. This happened not long after a Korean man and his little girl were murdered in the same little village. The girl was about 3-4 years old and had her throat slit, as was her father's. It happened during a robbery, that was done by a Korean. No GI's were involved. The wife, and mother to the little girl, was off getting water at a nearby spring and returned to find her husband and daughter killed. In this same time period, Eric catches someone sneaking into his home. Eric was married, his wife is Korean. At that time his daughter was about 2 I think. So you see, there can be a lot more to things. Controlling a person can be a lot easier after you soften them up a bit, and again, Eric didn't seriously hurt the guy. You may still be saddened and believe what was done was wrong. How Eric and I would handle the situation today may be different than back then. But I still wouldn't want to be someone sneaking into my home. Sorry, but that would be a bad move. It was a bad move for the guy to sneak into Eric's that night. There's a lot more related to this issue, but I have to get to work. :-) Yours in Training, Alain Burrese www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: 31 May 02 11:15:05 -0500 From: MW To: the dojang Subject: [The_Dojang] too ki/bang too ki Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject:too ki/bang too ki Date:5/31/02 Time:11:14 AM too ki is a defense against a kick/punch attack. Then a transfer is made to an offensive attack with a throw and finishing strike. Bang too ki is a defense against these or any other attempt at a throw transferring to an offensive attack ending with a throw. Confused yet? yours in the arts, michael whalen --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Emactkd@aol.com Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 13:24:43 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] A Dojang search Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Y'all! I have two students spending the summer in Annandale, Virginia. Does anyone have a reference for the TKD dojangs in the area? The students have been trained in WTF forms, but ITF is OK too. More interested in qualtity than affiliation. Thanks, Rick Foley --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 11:14:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] He fell :-) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> Rush looked at me, "Suppose you saw him fall Burrese?" "Yep, he fell." "Good enough for me." <> Master Burrese good to see you lurking on the list :-) Kinda what I'd expect from a good sniper ... Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TangSooDo Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 11:56:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] agnatic succession Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> What I don't understand is the first part, are you indicating that a "true multi-national org dedicated to an activity" can't have patri-lineal leadership, or that patrilineal succession in some way precludes "tru multi-nationalism". <> Danny, Bruce and list, I'll start by stirring the pot. Most organizations (NGB's) don't have a documented succession plan so the Korean version aka agnatic succession is better than no plan or even the Japanese method aka named favorite heir apparent has merit. Both methods indicate a plan on the part of the founder for the organization to survive him/her other than by splintering. To the best of my knowledge Hwang Kee has established Hwang H.C. as the head of the USA branch of MDKSBD but has not named a successor at 88 years of age. While he is still alive no less than 10 splinter organizations have formed including some multi-national (WTSDA, ITF, Pan-AM TSD, and others). So at GM Hwang Kee's passing I'm sure GM Hwang H.C. will assume he is the defacto agnatic successor, but others might argue that Jae Jhoon Kim (Dan #38) or Kang Uk Lee (Dan #70) are his seniors. Or even that Shin, Jae Chul would make a better international statesman. You would think some of the founders would have learned from Sifu Lee (the other Bruce) the cost of delaying a choosing of successor. Now JKD has lost both its founder and logical patri-linear successor. What remains are a handful of senior students and a handful of splinter organizations. Look familiar? So my question for the list is. Has anyone seen a better model for NGB longevity? What lessons can we learn from the transition? Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards Founder and GrandPooBah Moja Kwan Tang Soo Do Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Patrick L" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 14:18:17 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ask a little - Give a little - forgiveness that is Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Teressa, In regards to the poorly treated thief you wrote; >Please forgive my anger.< An issue for thought: May I point out that you wish understanding for your own anger, without understanding the anger of the individual you call to task. Getting in the WAY, Patrick _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest