Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:26:20 -0500 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #316 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: O Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE:Thanks (RReeves) 2. International HKD Games (Klaas Barends) 3. RE: White Belt Stuff (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 4. RE: Asking the teacher (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 5. RE: Get a life. (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 6. Re: RE: Get a life. (Ray Terry) 7. Re: International HKD Games (Ray Terry) 8. Glass Ceilings and White Belts (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 9. Starting Over (Farral, Kim) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "RReeves" To: Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 01:33:17 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE:Thanks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'm so impressed with the responses I've received. Before posting my questions, I'd never seen myself having an indomitable spirit. I'm rather shocked and (almost unbelievably) speechless. I showed your replies to my instructor, and he agreed with everything you said. I wanted to reply, though. I do have more questions, comments (not necessarily about this topic), etc., but I have so many more to go through! Thanks again for your replies, you've given me the encouragement and support I needed to continue at a really down time. Rita -----Original Message----- From: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net [mailto:the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net]On Behalf Of Kenneth W. Legendre Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 10:54 PM To: The Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] Ritas panic attacks Hello I currently am an assistant instructor at my school, but when we have testing for all of the students we gather with about 15 branch schools throughout the area. The testing can be pretty high pressure. The reason I'm telling you all of this is because there is one particular student not from the school I'm currently at that I remember about 2 years had to step out several times because of her anxiety attacks during her promotion (which was only about 20 minutes). At our last promotion she came up to me and said that she was disappointed with the way that she did. I had to stop and laugh. I've watched her at promotions for most of those 2 years. This last promotion was the first time that she didn't have to step out because of the attacks. I told her that and her whole attitude changed about the promotion. By the way the last test was for her temporary black belt which in our school is considered 1st degree, and thus is the most difficult test. Keep working on things and they will get better. Don't expect huge gains. Remember that you have to learn to crawl before you can walk. Ken Legendre3rd Dan TKD6th Gup HKDinnae@netexpress.net _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 09:32:33 +0200 From: Klaas Barends To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] International HKD Games Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I just wondered if any of you will be attending the 5th HKD Games of the IHF in Incheon Korea this year? The games will be held on Augustus 10 and 11. Looking forward to maybe meeting some of you -- kind regards Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 07:56:59 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: White Belt Stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Dan et al: ".....as far as your son not wanting to start over at white belt...for kids that kind of thing does matter. as adults, we realize that a belt is just a belt and i personally have no issue with moving down in rank b/c it's not that important......" If its OK with you I would like to chime in a bit on what you said about this issue of starting over. It my own classes, there are, very often, folks who sign-up for a semester who have had some exposure to techniques similar to the Hapkido material I teach. Its not that they don't know the technique for what it is, but rather that their execution and fundamentals really suck. Its the old issue of, "not what you do, but how you do it", yes? Since belt rank in an academic atmosphere is almost no issue at all, its a bit easier to correct such things on this basis. Where I run into most of my problems is having to deal with a kind of perverted sense of "loyalty" to some past or present teacher in which the individual continues to practice what he was taught, at the level at which he was taught it because thats what GM So&So taught. I could see asking a person in a more traditional setting to put aside their present belt and wear a white belt if only for the sub-liminal message it may send to that persons' head. That message would sound something like, "lets' put what you think you know to one side for a while and try owning a 'blank'slate' that the teacher may write HIS thoughts on, unencumbered." FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 08:46:14 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Asking the teacher Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Rudy: "......IMHO, loyalty should be a strong part of any martial art training; however, it has to go both ways. When I left the org I belonged to it was a hard thing for me to do. I have a strong sense of loyalty, but at the same time I also have a loyalty to my students. Hence, I went against my personal loyalties to better serve my own students. I felt I had that obligation, but I believe each person should follow his or her own heart. In my case, the breakaway was not the result of technical differences. It was simply a matter of politics and fees that I could no longer agree with......" A most sincere "thank you" for your patience and your post. I clipped the above from your post to ask if there is a particular approach that you take to encourage in your students the kind of judgement that they would need to make the same sort of intelligent decision. Certainly it must happen often that students and teachers have different opinions on what is taught, how it is taught and why. Though we have had only limited interaction between us, you don't strike me as the kind of person that would fall back on the old "cuz I said so" with students. Do you make allowances for variance in your curriculum? It seems that in a way what I am speaking of is sort of the flip-side of the "indomitable spirit" thing I defined for Rita. By this I mean that just as we must maintain respect for our personal beliefs, there must also be skill at reconciling what I believe with what the other person believes. There does not seem to be much focus on this in KMA most times. Is this a consideration in you teaching model? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 08:31:11 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Get a life. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Michael: "......No offense Bruce but didn't you attend a Hapkido seminar a while back, not make it thru two days of training and then write an article the size of War and Peace on what you saw as missing, inept, and full of areas that you could counter?....." Yes, I DO take offense at your comment. 1.) If you want my most honest response, the seminar material was simply not worth staying around for and was taught ineptly. (BTW: Let me get another thing off my chest. Someone please tell GM that Shihonage executed as a tenkan is NOT a throw but a takedown for the VERY reason that was apparent when people tried to air-roll out of that technique! If I remember right, the success rate was about one out of three and this among individuals of some experience in Sin Mu Hapkido.) 2.) You, and the rest of the members of the contingent that follow that particular personality can howl and cast aspersions all you want. The fact remains that in the weeks since that occasion, not one, not ONE of any of the people involved have engaged in an intelligent examination of any of the issues I raised. You are not required (or maybe not taught) to think for yourself, but you might want to show some respect for those of us who do. The fact that you cannot even accurately characterize what I wrote, or accurately report the events as they transpired (BTW: I don't remember YOU showing-up at all. Where do you get off commenting on MY attendence?) indicate to me that you could probably use a change of diet. Taking a line from Ray, maybe its time for you to switch from "rice" to pasta or meatloaf. The concept that someone can view things differently than yourself or your compatriots seems to be alien to your instruction, as does the idea of "tolerance," "reflection" and "self-correction". Regards, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Get a life. To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 06:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > 1.) If you want my most honest response, the seminar material was simply not > worth staying around for and was taught ineptly. But you couldn't even complete the weekend. How do you know? > (BTW: Let me get another thing off my chest. Someone please tell GM that > Shihonage executed as a tenkan is NOT a throw but a takedown for the VERY > reason that was apparent when people tried to air-roll out of that > technique! If I remember right, the success rate was about one out of three > and this among individuals of some experience in Sin Mu Hapkido.) Yep, sounds like more rice is needed... :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] International HKD Games To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 9:18:26 PDT Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I just wondered if any of you will be attending the 5th HKD Games > of the IHF in Incheon Korea this year? The games will be held on > Augustus 10 and 11. > > Looking forward to maybe meeting some of you Do you recall the URL with info re the above? Seems like I saw one from Ali or elsewhere... Ray Terry --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 09:20:40 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Glass Ceilings and White Belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net What an interesting day at the Dojang Digest! Bruce Simms complains of glass ceilings and the limitations placed on students in Korean schools on the same day that J.R. West explains that he limits students in his schools in a similar way, and for a very similar reason, that being "to make sure that everything my students see is what I want them to see." Michael Tomlinson had a wonderful comment on Bruce's glass ceilings, which I will freely paraphrase as "less talk, more practice." I agree wholeheartedly with that sentiment! I think that J.R.'s concern for control over his students is a grand illusion and that there is no single path to mastery in the arts. Everyone finds their own way based on their personality and their physical and mental capabilities. To impose one's limitations on another, or to require them to match your strengths or even surpass them is unreasonable behavior. I'm a big guy and I get away with a lot of upper body moves that my students can't equal. On the other hand, those skinny guys can do a lot of beautiful leg entries that I can only gape at in admiration. J.R. writes that as "we all know, there are many different ways to execute techniques, but only one way in my school." Why? I've seen snake lock (or nikyo, or quarter turn joint lock, or whatever) performed in a lot of ways, and although I have my four or five preferred methods, I still find myself using some of those other variations when the situation calls for it. If the concern is that that these visiting black belts will screw up and teach the "wrong" technique, then surely the problems of this technique will show up later when you show the "right" way, and the student will actually learn more than if they were just taught one technique and never learned to think critically about techniques they are taught. Eventually all of us run into that "glass ceiling" that Bruce was talking about (or rise to the ground floor of the way, as Michael hinted at) and are left on our own. We learn all our instructor has to teach, or we find ourselves the most senior instructor around. How do we learn then? Well hopefully we learned to think critically when we were students and can continue to employ this ruthless and frank appraisal of our practices (and hopefully in our personal lives as well, where it is a lot harder!). Where we find weaknesses in technique, we seek out solutions, either by practicing harder (a la Michael's suggestion), by looking at other styles (perhaps silat Ray?), or by asking a lot of questions (Bruce!). A lot of this seems similar to the big discussion with Jere Hilland where we talked about tradition. I came down hard on the side of eclecticism and freedom of thought. I think I will have to echo that call now. Let anyone who wishes talk to your students. Let your students decide what they like. But if you don't like what your teacher does, go do it better. If your teacher believes in freedom, you can do that in his/her school and he/she will be happy to see that your strengths are being passed to the students. If your teacher doesn't believe in freedom, then it is time to head out and practice on your own or travel around and be a dojang hobo. Hopefully after another ten years, you can go out and teach students in a better way. Let me add that I have not yet had the pleasure of meeting Michael and J.R., although I'm sure both are wonderful technicians. I have practiced with Bruce, and enjoyed it greatly. One of my favorite comments by J.R. was that "I teach my students that their belt is good for two things only, that is, holding up their pants, and identifying where they are in their training as far as MY school (only) is concerned." This is something I feel deep in my soul. A belt is a piece of cloth and will not get your back in a fight. Don't let a belt get in the way of learning! Ok, I'm off the soapbox now! (huge sigh of relief from the readers!) Let me share what I thought was a funny moment in the dojang. One of the kids in our tkd program asked, "what rank are you?" I said, "4th degree black belt." "But why don't you have four stripes on your belt," was his question (a good question for an 8 year old!). My reply was, "Because if I put 4 stripes on this side for t'aekwondo, and 3 stripes on that side for hapkido, where would I put my stripes for iaido and ACS?" I hope he got it. Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Farral, Kim" To: 'DoJang Digest' Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:47:08 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Starting Over Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well...Here is my input on the Starting Over as White Belt Issue... Let me Caviate this by saying every instructor has their own rules, regulations, opinions, practices, etc and if you REALLY wish to train with an instructor...then you have to accept their rules including starting over (as boring as thaat may be for an advanced student...but promotion should be quick) I agree with Master West's philosophy and reasoning for starting transfers over as white belts and the resulting martial artist this pracrtice produces...although, I do not agree...though I understand the concept and reasoning...with reducing a Dan rank to anything but a Dan rank...Most people who acheive a Dan have earned it...of course watching them perform will certainly identuify their capabilities and their worthiness of their rank...In many cases the reduction is temporary until the individual proves themself to the instructor as worthy of the higher rank...a humbling lesson... In my particular case...as I have on many occasions relocated states for career reasons...been allowed to maintain my current rank at the time when training with other instructors...However, when training under and instructing for a Grand Master under the WTF I was presented with joining the WTF uunder his academy but being reduced in rank from 4th to 1st Dan...fully understanding the reasoning...I humbly declined to maintain my association with my Grand Master under whom I was awarded my Black Belt... On one other occasion...I was in an area where TKD was not readilly available...at least not that held my interest and was strongly considering cross training for a while in a Japanese style...of course I would start out as a White Belt...completely understandable...A career change prevented me from starting the cross training, though I was ready to do so... I allow black belts in TKD to reamin at rank and to train and instruct under my guidance while they learn the proper forms and step sparring techniques...though they are not allowed to test for higher rank until they have met all the requirements to my satisfaction...usually requiring no less than one year of training and instruction from me...depending upon rank of course...the higher the rank..the longer it takes... Basically: If you desire the training from a specific instructor...be willing to reduce your rank and humbly accept the training with full commitment...it will be worth it in the end and you will have earned your rank without question... K. G. Farral Staff Mechanical Engineer ITT Industries 7310 Innovation Blvd. P.O. Box 731 Ft. Wayne, Indiana 46801-0731 Ph: (219) 451-5312 Fax: (219) 451-5476 kim.farral@itt.com ************************************ If this email is not intended for you, or you are not responsible for the delivery of this message to the addressee, please note that this message may contain ITT Privileged/Proprietary Information. In such a case, you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. You should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Information contained in this message that does not relate to the business of ITT is neither endorsed by nor attributable to ITT. ************************************ [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef] --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest