Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 19:31:14 -0500 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #317 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: O Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Throws and white belts (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 2. RE: International HKD Games (Woodard Brian (ChW/TEF8)) 3. Misconception (J.R. West) 4. glass floors (michael tomlinson) 5. RE: Get a Life Stuff (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 6. Re: RE: Get a Life Stuff (Ray Terry) 7. Starting over (Mac) 8. Ginseng & Kimchi (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:48:06 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Throws and white belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce Simms wrote: > Shihonage executed as a tenkan is NOT a throw but a takedown for the VERY > reason that was apparent when people tried to air-roll out of that > technique! What is the difference between a throw and a takedown? In my experience it is a throw if the person ends up on the ground. Kim Farral wrote: > I do not agree...though I understand the concept and > reasoning...with reducing a Dan rank to anything but a Dan rank...Most > people who acheive a Dan have earned it...of course watching them perform > will certainly identuify their capabilities and their worthiness of their > rank...In many cases the reduction is temporary until the individual proves > themself to the instructor as worthy of the higher rank...a humbling > lesson... This makes sense to me. Yours in the arts, Dakin burdickd@indiana.edu --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Woodard Brian (ChW/TEF8)" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] International HKD Games Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 13:47:50 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray; Here is the email below with the url Brian -----Original Message----- From: Klaas Barends [mailto:kbarends@gbugroep.nl] Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 3:33 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] International HKD Games I just wondered if any of you will be attending the 5th HKD Games of the IHF in Incheon Korea this year? The games will be held on Augustus 10 and 11. Looking forward to maybe meeting some of you -- kind regards Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "J.R. West" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 13:54:43 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Misconception Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Let me clear up a thing or two about my comments earlier. I understand perfectly that there are many correct ways of doing techniques, however, there are also many wrong ways. I have taught at seminars where other instructors would teach techniques that are just fundamentally unsound, and as Dakin has correctly pointed out, will not necessarily work when opponent body styles change. Correct basic motion, on the other hand, is indisputable and will work in all cases and situations and are as natural as the laws of gravity (I'm not sure about zero-gravity HapKiDo). I don't teach techniques, I teach basic motion and application, and one thing I definitely do not do is take away someone's experiences when they enroll at my school. When and if they leave, they take with them everything they came in with, including whatever rank they held prior, as well as anything I may have given them or they may have picked up while they were here. A large part of the student experience here is going through the entire program, from white belt up, and anyone who misses that portion of their education is being left out of a learning experience. There is also the "X" factor of the camaraderie that is associated with shared experiences that helps bind the black belt students together, and with 51 active black belts up to 5th dan, and only one in the children's class, that camaraderie is VERY important to me. When one of my students comes up with a variation on a taught technique during one of our "open" classes, I am overjoyed, because it means that this student is now thinking on a level of application rather than monkey-see monkey-do. By the same token, I will make an adjustment to this technique if one of the basic tenets of motion is being "stretched" a little, thereby making the technique a little better, or at least a little sounder. Last night, an old acquaintance of mine showed up at my school. I had met this man, (then an HKD 4th dan) about 15 years ago in GA while helping Dr. Kimm with a clinic, and have not talked to him much since, but after telling me he had been transerred to this area, asked to by a uniform and start training with me. When I brought out his new uniform, he saw the shiny new white belt and said, "I was hoping you would do that". Best wishes...J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 19:05:28 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] glass floors Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The point I am trying to make to Bruce about more practice and less analysis is this: Martial arts are a physical endeavor, sure there are mental aspects and psychological aspects and much more but the basic tenet in ALL martial arts is the physical nature. There is such a thing called muscle memory, and no matter how much you type about muscle memory, study and analyze muscle memory, or contact people and then write a historical timeline that includes every person who has ever used the word muscle memory, if you don't do the PHYSICAL PRACTICE a million times then the words muscle memory are only words, when you need muscle memory to work for you, you can't pull out your thesis on the words muscle memory and use them on your assailant. For some reason Bruce seems to think that people are being disrespectful by not wanting to TALK about martial arts along with him. Bruce have you ever thought that the reason some of these Korean Grandmasters do not want to debate and conceptualize everything you want them to is because maybe they are past that? It reminds me a lot about the Idea of Zen Buddhism,, if you are trying to talk about Zen Buddhism all the time then you have totally missed the point. It is the same with martial arts. Hey I like to talk about Hapkido as much as the next guy, but it all boils down to PRACTICE FIRST TALK LATER, the point I was trying to make to Bruce is that if you go to training events but you don't actually do the physical training but stand around and try to conceptualize what is happening and then go home and write about what happened then you actually missed the whole idea behind the training...and Bruce is right I wasn't at the training he was at, but I have been thru that same two day training session at least 4 different times in the past 5 years, so I know exactly what he missed, or better yet what he thinks he didn't miss, again.. techniques are learned on the mat thru hundreds of repititions with out debates,, I guarantee you that good Hapkido players can drop you with a shihonage faster than you can say the word shihonage,, which is not Korean but Japanese by the way,, but who cares doing is always better for your martial arts then talking. Every martial arts instructor I have ever had including, Korean, American, Japanese, etc. has only "explained" things to me after they have seen me personally bust my but in practice over and over and over again,, they just don't give you the world first,, Bruce, sometimes you have to pay your dues before you reap the benefits,, but I am sure you've read about that already before? Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 14:51:46 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Get a Life Stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: """....... 1.) If you want my most honest response, the seminar material was simply not > worth staying around for and was taught ineptly. But you couldn't even complete the weekend. How do you know?......" When I work with vets and run into the kind of resistence that I am hitting now, a little bell goes off and I realize that what I am dealing with is not an intellectual question, but rather an emotional issue mascarading as an intellectual question. I think it is plain that no matter what I say or don't say folks are going to make of it what they will. Nobody is talking about the issues. What I see is people repeating the same derisive things over and over but nobody is talking about the actual issues. Ray, you are asking "how do I know?" (Did you even read my critque on teaching approaches?) OK. Heres' how I know. 1.) The seminar started with a guesstiment of some 30 people. As of noon on the first day, half of the people did not come back from lunch, nor did they return the next day. On the second day the morning was committed to kicking, and the venue was nothing more than a catalogue of the 25 basic kicks (5x one leg, 5x other leg, next kick....) with no guidance, commentary, recommendations or reinforcement. The actual seminar itself not particularly informative, and certainly was not demanding in any way. I came to hear from "THE MAN" and what I got could have come from any decent video tape. I left at noon on Sunday for no other reason than I had come to the realization that I travelled from Chicago to Ft Collins and back again and was grossly disappointed and annoyed at what I got for my efforts. 2.) Read the critique I wrote regarding teaching approaches. It came straight out of the seminar. 3.) I have been teaching and counseling since 1976 and have some idea of how to motivate, explain, examine and correct, and I didn't see any of that at the seminar. Now, lets flip things over. How is it that I need to explain this stuff? Where were you, and Michael, and Rick and the rest of the GM Ji Fan Club? You folks are taking issue and you didn't even attend! I traveled half-way across the US and I don't even belong to Sin Mu Hapkido! Whats wrong with you folks? And, how come a measly 3rd degree BB has to explain to the rest of you what constitutes decent instruction and what does not. Or is it just that GM Ji is the only big name in town and folks seem to enjoy basking in his afterglow regardless of what he actually does or doesn't do. Sure, I agree with you, "eat more rice" by all means. But if the rice is spoiled, or poorly prepared, or served under crappy circumstances don't expect eating more of the same to solve the problem. Or have you just been eating this particular preparation for so long you can't imagine anything else. So, I have not said anything in this post that I have not said before. Apparently folks simply don't want to read what I am writing, or don't want to think about what I have written. But do me a favor, then. Next time you have your mind set, and don't want to intelligently discuss an issue, please don't ask me for my view, 'kay? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Get a Life Stuff To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 14:19:44 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think we already ran this one into the ground before, but here goes... > 1.) The seminar started with a guesstiment of some 30 people. As of noon on > the first day, half of the people did not come back from lunch, nor did they > return the next day. On the second day the morning was committed to kicking, > and the venue was nothing more than a catalogue of the 25 basic kicks (5x > one leg, 5x other leg, next kick....) with no guidance, commentary, > recommendations or reinforcement. The actual seminar itself not particularly > informative, and certainly was not demanding in any way. I came to hear from > "THE MAN" and what I got could have come from any decent video tape. I left > at noon on Sunday for no other reason than I had come to the realization > that I travelled from Chicago to Ft Collins and back again and was grossly > disappointed and annoyed at what I got for my efforts. fwiw, I have heard from some that they, too, were disappointed. I have also heard from some that had a wonderful time. So who is right and who is wrong? Or is it that maybe different people just appreciate different things about different instructors? > 3.) I have been teaching and counseling since 1976 and have some idea of how > to motivate, explain, examine and correct, and I didn't see any of that at > the seminar. Super. You were probably trained how to teach and how to interact with others. Perhaps that training helped you a bit.?.? Perhaps not? :) Some that end up teaching were not trained to be a classroom teacher, or a phys ed teacher or a guidance counselor. They just ended up teaching because they knew their stuff and others wanted to learn. Some great fighters can teach, some cannot. Regardless of which you encounter, imho is it always up to the student that -really- wants to learn to figure out how to pull out the info in a way that they can digest it. I personally never had a problem learning from Gm Ji. Sometimes his accent would throw me (pun intended), but he was always able to get the pain across. > Now, lets flip things over. How is it that I need to explain this stuff? > Where were you, and Michael, and Rick and the rest of the GM Ji Fan Club? > You folks are taking issue and you didn't even attend! I traveled half-way > across the US and I don't even belong to Sin Mu Hapkido! Whats wrong with > you folks? Ok... Personally I had just seen him about two months before. Others were going to see him over Mothers Day weekend in Mexico. I'll hopefully see him again this summer, just spoke with him on the phone yesterday. > And, how come a measly 3rd degree BB has to explain to the rest > of you what constitutes decent instruction and what does not. I think we're all still waiting for your wisdom to sink in. :) In closing, Bruce... relaaaxxxx. You'll live longer and be happier not getting so upset over differences of opinion. If I or Michael or [name] thinks you're off base, why do you care? I don't care that you now think I'm off base... :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Mac" To: Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 18:55:05 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Starting over Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I've started over at white belt several times. Most people/students think they are losing something, but I feel you can't lose anything - you are just 'adding to' your former training with something new. You still keep all your experiences and skills, and now learn to apply them in new and different ways. So I think of 'starting over' as just 'beginning something new'. The cross training has helped me in my base art as well. The whole goal is the training anyway, not a belt. The belt will just help the instructor understand where you are in his/her curriculum and what to teach you next and set their expectations. We could train without belts and ranks. If we did, would you expect to walk into another martial arts school in a new and different style than what you've been training in and want to be considered an advanced or expert student of that art? I would think not. But with your previous training you may have a natural advantage to learning the new material. It's the training that's important, not the rank. With proper training and practice, rank will naturally follow your abilities. Just my ramblings on a Thursday evening.... I've got to go pick out a belt and head out to class [I have a closet full] :-) Mac --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 17:29:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Ginseng & Kimchi Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net World Cup Boosts Ginseng, Kimchi Image June 27, 2002 South Korea's ginseng and kimchi are drawing global attention after Korean football players' excellent performance in the ongoing FIFA World Cup finals. Korea advances to the semifinals, beating European powers such as Portugal, Italy and Spain and stunning the world. A few foreign media have covered the traditional foods as potential factors in the Korean team's consecutive victories. The New York Times reported, "There are veiled accusations that South Korea has gained an unfair advantage in stamina from drinking a special ginseng concoction." Even though captain Hong Myung-bo refuted the rumor, suspicions abound in the face of the advance by the underdogs. With the interest growing in Korea's traditional food, many companies are moving to make the most of the opportunities. Korea Tobacco & Ginseng Corporation (KT&G) held an explanatory session for ginseng roots for foreign reporters at the World Cup press center at the Convention and Exhibition Center (COEX) on June 12. TKT&G also invited Danish reporters and importers to its ginseng processing companies on June 10 and distributed booklets on the herbal root to local hotels. In the meantime, the Agricultural and Fisheries Marketing Corporation sold out six tons of kimchi during a Korean food exhibition underway in Beijing and plans to airlift additional shipments. A survey of foreign people showed rising interest in the Korean food. In a survey on Japanese and Chinese consumers, they believed the Korean players' stamina came from the foods. Out of the 365 Japanese surveyed, 45 percent answered that the Korean players' fitness and physical power is attributable to the fermented vegetable and ginseng. Another 44.1 percent attributed their good performance to support from Korean fans. In another survey of 110 Chinese customers, 37.3 percent said that the Korean ginseng is the best in the world. "The World Cup provides us with a good chance for kimchi and ginseng to go global. We will exert efforts to make them favoriate health foods in the world," said an official at Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest