Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 09:46:14 -0500 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #318 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: O Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Bruce - The King of Hapkido (RDNHJMS@aol.com) 2. (Rudy Timmerman) 3. Basic motion (Rudy Timmerman) 4. Moja Kwan Update (Moja Kwan Tang Soo Do) 5. More for Bruce (michael tomlinson) 6. RE: The 5th International HKD Games (Sun Mu Kwan-USA) 7. RE: Word Stuff (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 8. Question about rank (Kakita Kentei) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: RDNHJMS@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 21:05:21 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Bruce - The King of Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, You talk (type) too much. Give it a break buddy, and spend more time taking care of the veteran brothers of mine that you are being paid to take care of. Regards, Rick Nabors --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 21:08:01 -0400 From: "Rudy Timmerman" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce writes: > Dear Rudy: > A most sincere "thank you" for your patience and your post. I clipped the > above from your post to ask if there is a particular approach that you take > to encourage in your students the kind of judgement that they would need to > make the same sort of intelligent decision. Certainly it must happen often > that students and teachers have different opinions on what is taught, how it > is taught and why. Hello Bruce: My way of teaching sorta looks at technique in a variety of ways. Thus, in a manner of speaking, the nature of my teaching often limits questions because I cover them as I go. IMHO, going by the book does not take into account the many differences that might make a particular technique work different from one person to another. In my case, my size often dictates what works for me, and some things won't work at all. Problem I have seen is that some Instructors delete technique just because it won't work well for them. Unfortunately, this may have been the very technique YOU needed. That is how many arts are watered down. > you don't strike me as the kind of person that would fall back on the old > "cuz I said so" with students. Do you make allowances for variance in your > curriculum? It seems that in a way what I am speaking of is sort of the > flip-side of the "indomitable spirit" thing I defined for Rita. By this I > mean that just as we must maintain respect for our personal beliefs, there > must also be skill at reconciling what I believe with what the other person > believes. There does not seem to be much focus on this in KMA most times. Is > this a consideration in you teaching model? When I teach white belts or seminars, I often will pre-empt people from asking too many questions. I don't do this to stifle their thoughts, I simply can't afford to waste time on one question after another. I reserve some time for this AFTER the lessons. I guess I have just had one too many "but what if I do this" questions, and IMHO these sort of questions tend to limit learning. In other words, if a student thinks I have something to teach, by all means stay and learn. If they want to compare their stuff against mine, let's find some mat time together and work it out. I have learned from some of the highest ranked martial artists in this world, and I have also learned from a white belt who asked a question that provoked me to think about a particular technique. Hence, I teach with an open mind, and I always carry my white belt with me so I can instantly become a student. As I said in my previous post. Respect and loyalty has to go both ways, and I DO respect what others (even in my own school) have to offer; however, I cannot allow their beliefs to fundamentally change the way I wish to have my students taught or the philosophy I have in MY school. When this happens, it is time to find the student a place of his own where he or she can do his or her own thing. If this is done tactfully, both parties can benefit. In the same time, I teach a particular art that has a set curriculum. I do not allow anyone in my KSB schools to change that curriculum. All my Instructors can do is put their own twist on presenting it. Otherwise, the art would be lost in no time, and I guess we have all seen enough of that. Because I wear two hats (as head of a kwan as well as leader of an association), I must tell you that I have a different approach for each. With the art I represent, there is no option to change. In my association I deal with people from many arts, and my mandate there is not to interfere with the way a member runs his or her particular school. Like JR, I am far more interested in what a person knows than what he or she wears, and I like his determination to stick with his beliefs. Almost on a daily basis I receive emails and calls from people who want me to recognize their rank or some new style. Upon research into the background of these folks, I often find that they never stuck around any art long enough to learn more than a few basic ideas. When a student moves around too often, s/he will not learn the higher material of a paricular art regardless on how many years they train. We used to call these folks "Jacks of all trades, but Masters of none". Nowadays, they want to be called "Grand Phoebah" of some new art. When someone tells me that they have formed a new style, it often means that they simply mixed the low end materials from a number of arts together. IMHO, this does not make a new style, it simply is an easy way to hide the fact that the "founder" did not have the gumption to eat more rice (and perhaps a little crow). In closing, there has to be a delicate balance on asking questions and a willingness to stick around and learn. If one of my students had nothing but questions and little mat time, I'd soon show him or her the door. On the other hand, if one of my students NEVER asks questions I would take a hard look at myself for failing to instill Jung Shin spirit in him. I hope this gives you an idea on MY personal way of looking at it. BTW folks, I will be away for the next two weeks. In case more questions come up, I'll get back to you when I return. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 21:31:01 -0400 From: "Rudy Timmerman" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Basic motion Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net JR writes: > Correct basic motion, on the other hand, is indisputable and will work in all > cases and situations and are as natural as the laws of gravity (I'm not sure > about zero-gravity HapKiDo). Hi JR: Looks like you just named the next new art " Zero Gravity Hap Ki Do" I'll register you as a tenth dahn right away:) Seriously now, I fully agree with you on the indisputable success of correct basic motion. The point I was making to Bruce was that, for example, I personally will avoid using a hip throw, it is simply not economical for me to get down when there are other things I can do. I am sure you would also have such preferences. BTW my friend, thanks for your kind comments to Kat. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Moja Kwan Tang Soo Do" To: Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 21:47:25 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Moja Kwan Update Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear All, Call me nuts, but we will be moving to a postage stamp size dojang at the main intersection of Historic Downtown Holly Springs, Georgia effective August 1, 2002. Will be busy renovating and working on other muscle memories so I'll probably be in lurk mode until after August 1. On starting over I've been a white belt three times (so far) and been every belt color except orange and purple twice :-) Also want to thank Master Danny Dunn for dropping by our Dojang to observe and share Tang Soo Do Brotherhood. I think my gups questioned him to death. Even got to learn about how much as people he and I have in common. Aren't the martial arts great? Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards Moo Do Jae Ja --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 04:13:31 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] More for Bruce Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce writes: "On the second day the morning was committed to kicking, >and the venue was nothing more than a catalogue of the 25 basic kicks (5x >one leg, 5x other leg, next kick....) with no guidance, commentary, >recommendations or reinforcement." Been there and done that many times, it is called practice, and entails that you put in a big effort "practicing the techniques which in turn build up muscle memory. The only true way to learn! And after that you would of probably learned the eight ways to stepping while doing those 25 basic kicks,, you do the math on that one. ""The actual seminar itself not particularly >informative, and certainly was not demanding in any way. I came to hear >from >"THE MAN" and what I got could have come from any decent video tape."" Now this is very telling,, you came to "hear" from the man,, that's different than when I've trained with him, I don't come to hear from him I come to practice what he shows me and then go home and practice it hundreds of times more. You might be right about the video tape,, if you get tired of watching it or practicing you can just turn off the video and nobody notices that. And then you have not shown anyone your true ability. Bruce I don't really get upset about you not liking Doju Nim Ji's techniques or seminar, and trust me I don't have an axe to grind with you in any way so as Ray says relaaaax dude, and I don't follow anyone blindly, you should know that by now. I'm too opinionated and abrasive for that. my concern was that you are quick to criticize but you are also quick to leave the training before it is over,, in my eyes that tells me you didn't pay your dues and basically you are a "quitter" in my world,, and I don't respect that. So to listen to your critique after that became a mute point for me,, sorry but I only will listen to people "after" they have been thru the training. I will tell you that you can't go to one training in Sin Moo and think that you have figured it out. My first time I was confused and not completely sold on Doju Nim Ji's techniques, but after the second time, and then practicing the techniques over and over, a light bulb went off in my head and I saw the relevance of what the techniques are about.... that came from more practice not more disscussion,, I also have a wild card in my hand,, I have Master Nabors, Javier, and all their students and mine close by as a support system and whipping post so to speak,, it helps. I have since created a complete terminology of all the Sin Moo techniques in English and have systemized and categorized everything and I teach them in that manner. It is the teacher in me coming out and also it helps me to remember them. The curriculum is quite exstensive. You would be impressed Bruce. I didn't change anything about the techniques at all and teach them EXACTLY as I was shown them by Doju Nim and Master Nabors. And in the exact order I learned them. During my 4th dan test Master Nabors made me explain every step and movement I took while doing the technique to show him that I understood what I was doing.. and then he made me do the same technique fast to show him I could execute it for real... it was a great test. The main thing about Doju Nim's techniques is the simplicity and effectiveness of them. His basics are the most sound I have ever seen and really make sense "after" you understand why you do them... just like J.R. wrote earlier,, the basic movement is everything, and without that foundation everything else is shaky whether you realize it or not. About the "shihonage" technique being a takedown and not a throw,, well I heard that same explanation from a guy in my area that owns an aikijujutsu dojo. I then showed him how to make it a throw on his advanced students and then I had them throwing me with the technique in about five minutes,, no big deal if you understand the basics, and have been thrown a million times like my back has?? I quit working out with those guys when the owner of the aikijujutsu dojo used my throw that I taught him for his part of a "masters" demonstration on a PBS show,,, as he threw his advanced student with the throw I showed him during the filming his advanced student winked at me when he hit the ground and let me know that he also knew what had just happened. And guess what Bruce, I was just a measley 1st dan as you put it earlier when that happened. one good thing did come from that, his second in command student has now been with me training for over 5 years now, and Master Nabors calls him the tasmanian devil, and that is what he is I have since talked to some of the participants and they told me that what you are talking about with the Shihonage happened on one of the High Eight techniques,, I know Ray knows what I am talking about,, Bruce,, I can throw people with everyone of those techniques very quickly but I will say that those High Eight are VERY dangerous and there is a HIGH risk of injury if the person you are throwing tightens up or anticipates your movement,,,they are very dangerous,,, and that in my opinion is why most people have learned them as a takedown instead of a throw,,, in Master Whalens world we call that throw an "elbow breaking wrist throw" and ALL of his guys, my guys, and Rick's and Javier's guys practice those techniques as throws,,, but keep in mind,,, we practice a whole lot, and have been known to kick and throw each other ALL DAY BABY!!! That's the real name of the game,,, hey I think I have actually wrote as much as Bruce during this post,, oh know,, must be time to go meditate!!!! Michael Tomlinson (measley 4th dan?) _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 21:32:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Sun Mu Kwan-USA To: Dojang digest Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: The 5th International HKD Games Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net For those interested, I posted information on the up coming HKD Games on my website at: www.ushankido.org Hopefully, I'll see some of you there besides Klaas...LOL... Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 07:34:53 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Word Stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Michael: "......For some reason Bruce seems to think that people are being disrespectful by not wanting to TALK about martial arts along with him. Bruce have you ever thought that the reason some of these Korean Grandmasters do not want to debate and conceptualize everything you want them to is because maybe they are past that? It reminds me a lot about the Idea of Zen Buddhism,, if you are trying to talk about Zen Buddhism all the time then you have totally missed the point. It is the same with martial arts. Hey I like to talk about Hapkido as much as the next guy, but it all boils down to PRACTICE FIRST TALK LATER, the point I was trying to make to Bruce is that if you go to training events but you don't actually do the physical training but stand around and try to conceptualize what is happening and then go home and write about what happened then you actually missed the whole idea behind the training......" I clipped out the above quote because I think you have captured a VERY important point here. My position has never been that one substitutes one thing (training) for another (discussion). The post-WW II KMA traditions with their heavy Japanese influence have routinely pressed the idea of training and that the idea of discussion was somehow disrespectful, even affrontive to the teacher. If it is true that such arts as HwaRang Hapkido and Kuk Sool Hapkido have come down through the ages to us, I will bet that the method of learning was a lot more interactive between teacher and student than we have been given to believe. (To support this I will share that I am finding an increasing number of references to what we have assumed to be international dochang ettiquette such as bowing, rank deference and status as "imported" from Japan rather than indigenous to Korean kwans.) In fact, I routinely hear it reported that some of the best stuff to happen at seminars occurs after hours, or over lunch, informally. My position is that there is no reason for this not to be an INTEGRAL PART OF TRAINING ON THE MAT. I simply do not believe that the student is well-served by repeatedly telling them to "train more". Using the mention of Zen Buddhism, it is certainly true that the "spoken Zen is not the true Zen." However, Roshi Suzuki, Roshi Kapleau and many others have written numbers of books, hundreds of thousands of words, on the subject and noone would dream of disparaging their practice. Words are how we commmunicate, and especially here in the West where we have a heritage of intellectual investigation. The idea of a teacher pontificating from a position of authority somehow removed from the student is an artifact from another age of ruling elites and illiterate practitioners. Nor do heathy students come to class to endure a bootcamp atmosphere, become good little Koreans, be innundated with varied terms in a foreign language, or blind-sided by exotic techniques. They come to learn and in our culture that includes an intellectual examination of what we do, courtesy of our heritage with the Scientific Method. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 06:51:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Kakita Kentei To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Cc: kakita_kentei@yahoo.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Question about rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings, I've been reading this list for the last month or so, and you folks are really knowledgeable. It's refreshing to see a list which actually discusses things and remains civil. Thank you. Now to my question: I've been training in Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do since 1986. From 1986 to 1993, I trained as often as I could. I also didn't test for any belt rankings whatsoever, given my sporadic attendance for the first few years. In 1992, I was still a white belt, until my instructor awarded me an Orange belt, without a test. For the remainder of that year, I wore the orange belt and worked towards my Green belt test, which was skipping Yellow. (Orange really wasn't in our official belt line, and my instructor was honoring the award that had been given by another school.) I passed my Green Belt test in December of 1993, and moved away to college. I was away 8 years, during which time, I didn't train formally but worked out a lot. I even had a kenpo instructor offer me a black belt after only one training session. I politely demurred, because eventually would return and train. I managed to get home last July, and went back into training. I tested for my first stripe in December, and my second stripe in April. These are both stripes on my green belt. Now, on July 21 is a test, and it would be for me to step up to my Red belt. I'm hearing a lot of rumbling from fellow students but not the teachers in the school, that I haven't put in enough time and that I shouldn't test. My instructors all are fairly blase about the whole thing. My ultimate question is: Is it realistic for me to try to attempt the test? I know all the requirements, and actually transcend several areas. However, it's only been since April from my last test. I have some doubts, and a lot of my doubts spring from a physical infirmity I have... I have a bum knee and it is really hard to put the level of intensity I used to have into my forms and other aspects of training. What do you folks think? ===== Kakita Kentei Crane Clan Jade Legion Samurai * Experienced 5 * Unique 2F 8C 12HR 13G 4PH * Will Only join the Crane Clan or Jade Legion Double Chi * Will attach jade items for 4 less gold. Kentei may always focus first against Shadowlands personalities. * Open: Once per turn, challenge a Shadowlands personality to an unrefusable duel. "Corruption is a shortcut with short term gains and long term losses." Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest