Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 13:08:14 -0500 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #319 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: O Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. seminars and being a white belt again (rich hodder) 2. Re: Question about rank (Ray Terry) 3. Re: 5th International HKD Games (Klaas Barends) 4. RE: Terminology Stuff (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 5. RE: After Thought (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 6. Does the student pay to learn or does he pay to have someone teach (Kenneth W. Legendre) 7. Re: Starting Over (Anne Skjold) 8. Silly question (kawany@bellsouth.net) 9. Black Belt Exam Requirements (Anne Skjold) 10. Re: Silly question (Ray Terry) 11. breaks (Ray Terry) 12. Voice from Colorado (Todd W Deininger) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "rich hodder" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 07:06:31 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] seminars and being a white belt again Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear List, I, in general, tend to stay in the back round and keep my mouth shut. I come by this naturally, as I have two ears and only one mouth (listen at least twice as much as you talk). As to the discussion regarding Bruce needing more mat time and his "need" to espouse his opinions regarding recent seminars, I believe that he is being unfairly treated by several of the pundits on this list. Sure, Bruce is opinionated, I would venture to guess that most of the folks on this list are, but this discussion has gone beyond good taste and respectful dialog. I find it strange that the people that have chimed in with such rabid veracity, were not at the seminar. I was. In fact, Bruce was paired with a TKD 4th Dan on the mat right next to Michael Choi and myself on the first day. On several occasions, I heard the assistant instructors tell him to not work so hard because the seminar was going to last for two whole days. I have been witness to Bruce's work ethic on several occasions at different seminars around the country and can tell you that he is always on the mat "eating more rice". He is generally quiet, respectful and he takes a lot of notes. The only reason he said anything at all on this list about the Ft. Collins seminar is that he was specifically asked to do so. Not to be confrontational, but if you were not there, Climb down! Enough said. (don't ask, I won't comment on the seminar any further) As for being a white belt again, who wouldn't want to be a white belt again? You get to learn so much and you have basically no responsibility. It is kind of like being a child again 8^) If you apply the "empty your cup" message in a little different fashion, you lose nothing. Don't empty your cup.... get a new cup. well, back to listening RichGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Question about rank To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 07:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > It's refreshing to see a list which actually discusses things and remains > civil. Well... sometimes... :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 16:53:46 +0200 From: Klaas Barends To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: 5th International HKD Games Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Hopefully, I'll see some of you there besides Klaas...LOL... it would certainly be nice to meet other members of this digest. We could enjoy some kimchi together :-) -- kind regards Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 07:06:57 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Terminology Stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Dakin: ".....What is the difference between a throw and a takedown? In my experience it is a throw if the person ends up on the ground....." This is a pretty common misconception. You are right that in both a takedown and a throw the person winds up on the ground. The difference lies in the manner in which the person gets there. When I teach this in a class I have the students fantasize that they are executing the techniques in a dark room with a single light mounted on the their partners' belt. Excuting a "lock", the light remains relatively stationary, and the same for a "pin", which is nothing more than a lock which incorporates part of the environment. Execute a "takedown" and the light will travel in a pretty straight line down to the floor. Execute a "projection" and the light will scribe an arc from standing position to the floor. However, execute a throw and the light will scribe a hyperbolic curve in which the light first rises and then falls to the floor. The technique which was demonstrated at the seminar under discussion appeared to be an attempt to apply the idea that if one can do something one way, it can likewise be done the opposite way--- sort of a Communicative Property of Hapkido. :-) In this case Four Directions throw which is technically a takedown CAN be modified to a throw when done as an entering (irimi) technique. However, when that same Four Directions throw is executed as a tenkan, or outside turning technique, attempting to modify it to a throw sets-up, or suggests, two different vectors to the partner. The result is what was seen at the seminar in which the partner often simply collides with the person executing the technique. From the standpoint of art, the technique could probably have some value as a training method. As a combat application its pretty much a contrivance. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 07:49:20 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: After Thought Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray: ".....In closing, Bruce... relaaaxxxx. You'll live longer and be happier not getting so upset over differences of opinion. If I or Michael or [name] thinks you're off base, why do you care? I don't care that you now think I'm off base... :)...." Of course, you are right in this. My energy comes from the fact that way too many KMA instructors (I will not call them teachers) have disparaged intellectual examination of their arts, or authenticity, or history--- whatever--- as a way of avoiding revealing their abysmal lack of understanding regarding the very art they are teaching. Sometimes, when someone asks a question here on the Net one of my first thoughts is "why doesn't this person ask their instructor?" Of course, we all know the answer. The answer is because the person has come to believe that they will not GET a straight answer. Sometimes there is no answer that can be verbalized, but I am coming to realize that such should be a significant rarity. Now, there are one helluva lot more schools out there that still do things the old "cuz I said so"-way and there are still a helluva lot more practitioners out there who believe that anything but endless repetition is somehow less "authentic" than healthy investigation. If, then, my voice becomes a bit more strident I will ask that folks consider that I am a relative minority working to be heard over the larger numbers of voices advocating that the practitioner be greened for paying tuition and kept relatively uninformed. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Kenneth W. Legendre" To: The Dojang Digest Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 11:31:19 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Does the student pay to learn or does he pay to have someone teach Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Well I guess I have to finally stand up for Mr. Sims. This all started when somebody asked for his OPINION. I have a friend who to this day complains about a paper he wrote that he got a D on. He got a D on it because the instructor said his OPINION was wrong. How can an OPINION be wrong??? Maybe GM Ji put on a great seminar. Maybe it was terrible. I dont know I wasnt there. Mr. Sims backed up his opinion with reasons. Valid reasons in my opinion.  Mr. Terry statedRegardless of which you encounter, imhois it always up to the student that -really- wants to learn to figure out how to pull out the info in a way that they can digest it. I completely disagree with this. A student doesnt pay you to learn. If they did there would be alot more quality black belts coming from video backgrounds. A student has to want to learn, but the teacher has to put it in a way that they can learn. Every successful instructor does, wether they realize this or not. I have a student that I work with who does everything by the numbers. I can tell when she knows her form because she quits counting out loud. I could never learn that way (OK maybe not never but it would take me a long time.)  Now I bet that if I went to one of Mr. Terrys classes I would find that he changes his teaching style based on who he is working with. Why because the student has paid him to teach not to learn. Please dont take this as an attack against anybody or praise of anybody. I have never met either of the 2 individuals I mentioned above (although I would some day like to.) ThanksKen Legendreinnae@netexpress.net3rd Dan TKD5th Gup HKD --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Anne Skjold" To: Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 12:01:57 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Starting Over Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net as far as this I agree with most about starting over. But my question is... are you applying this to txfr's within the same art, say WTF Tae Kwon Do to WTF Tae Kwon Do or txfr's from WTF TKD to ITF TKD or TKD to Hapkido and at colored belt level and Black Belt level? Ms Anne --__--__-- Message: 8 From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 13:07:40 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Silly question Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello everyone, This may sound like a silly question, but I am not well versed in "internet/chat lingo". Would someone please share with me what "IMHO" stands for? Thanks. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Anne Skjold" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 12:26:41 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Black Belt Exam Requirements Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello all, I would like to respectfully ask what some of my fellow Martial Artist what Black Belt exam Requirements are in there Dojangs. Reason I ask is I have been doing some reading and also back from the sparring thread it got me curios as to what other persons test materials cover. I would prefer to here from WTFers being that is what I am but I also love hearing about other styles so I have well rounded knowledge. Ms Anne Skjold 1st Dan WTF TKD Anne Skjold Office Manager Sodexho - MSUM PH: 218-233-2836, FX: 218-233-2920 email: skjoldan@mnstate.edu --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Silly question To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > This may sound like a silly question, but I am not well versed in > "internet/chat lingo". Would someone please share with me what "IMHO" > stands for? Thanks. imho = in my humble opinion btw = by the way iirc = if I recall correctly fwiw = for whatever its worth lol = laugh out loud etc = I don't know what that means... :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:36:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] breaks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Folks, how bout we get off the Bruce/seminar thing now. We'll have enough time to beat up on Bruce again next week. :) Thanks. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Todd W Deininger" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 11:47:07 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Voice from Colorado Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Enough with the Colorado seminar stuff. I am tired of hearing about it. Sean Bradley and the HKD/TKD Club busted their butts to raise money to have DJN come to CO and put on a seminar and a demonstration. Doing all of this plus taking full course loads. This seminar was a great success in many ways. Sorry Ray, but I have to shed some light on some of the misinformation that is flying around out there and will mention no more about this on the digest. Personal inquires are more than welcome, but I spend my time on the mat, not at the keyboard, so responses will be slow. For those of you out there that know me, you know I am a man of few words, but this has been stewing in me for some time and since the topic came back up again I decided to respond. I attended the CO seminar and spent the weekend with DJN. I have been training in HKD for 20 years and teaching HKD for 11. I am also a professional educator and have spent many hours in a classroom as both student and teacher. So in no particular order I would like to address some of the points that have been brought up at the seminar. 1. Bruce said, "The seminar started with a guesstiment of some 30 people. As of noon on the first day, half of the people did not come back from lunch, nor did they return the next day." This is a ludicrous statement. There were 25 people at this seminar, including DJN, Master McKenzie,the participants and the camera people. One person left earlier due to having ankle surgery and realizing he did not want to risk further injury. He was given a refund of his seminar fee. He is also a digest member. I still have the seminar picture on my desk of all the participants from Saturday and it has more than 15 people. 2. Bruce said, "I came to hear from 'THE MAN' ". All out of town guests were invited to a dinner Saturday night in which DJN answered all questions that were asked of him. Also, Sunday evening, all the Blackbelts were invited to DJN's hotel room after diner where conversation stopped at about 1am. I heard much from "THE MAN". 3. "The actual seminar itself not particularly informative, and certainly was not demanding in any way." One needs to open their eyes to see what is in front of them. I have been on the mat with many a different martial artists, some great, most not so great, but I have always managed to learn something new. As for the seminar not being very demanding, you take away what you put in. 4. "I think it is plain that no matter what I say or don't say folks are going to make of it what they will. Nobody is talking about the issues." Bruce, I don't think it is what you say, but that you are not telling the truth in everything you say. Take for example the fact that you stated that your partner did not have good falls. Your partner was Dave Steffan, who some old timers on the list know. He has no trouble falling. I have thrown him many times and even threw him that day and look forward to throwing him in the future. You also used the fact that some of the students there were injured and how that reflected DJN's teachings. Once again you are making assumptions. Our camera man was injured by a judo throw, not a HKD technique. Sean's shoulder injury was not caused by technique, but by not resting his injury that actually occurred weight lifting. I too was young once and didn't concern myself with my own injuries. 5. "I have been teaching and counseling since 1976 and have some idea of how to motivate, explain, examine and correct, and I didn't see any of that at the seminar" Bruce, maybe it is time for you to become a student again. Being in the teaching profession, I see many teachers forget what it is like to be a student. We as martial artists have a great advantage because we never give up being students. Sometime as students we need to adapt to a different teaching styles, just as teachers we must learn to teach to different learning styles. I will say that DJN is not the best teacher I have ever had, but I have never had a problem with him motivating me, explaining technique to me, or correcting me. Once again Bruce, I distinctly remember myself or another blaclbelt instructor explaining, examining and correcting some of your techniques and as well as all of the other participants. As I said when I started, I am a man of few words so I will stop this now as I think the rest of you should. Todd --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest