Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 19:59:26 -0500 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #324 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. HapKiDo/AiKiDo (J.R. West) 2. Re: Color code (ABurrese@aol.com) 3. Four corner throw (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 4. Where is Best Martial Arts Supply? (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 5. Re: Korean Sensei again (Kakita Kentei) (Dana Vaillancourt) 6. RE: Korean Sensei again (Kakita Kentei) 7. WTF Manual (Laurie S.) 8. RE: Re: Korean Sensei again (Kakita Kentei) (Kakita Kentei) 9. Re: color code (another's view) (ConfuzedAlien@aol.com) 10. Re: WTF Manual (Ray Terry) 11. color codes (Ray Terry) 12. Throw (michael tomlinson) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "J.R. West" To: Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:51:18 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] HapKiDo/AiKiDo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master JR West who is also ranked in Aikido would be of help here. Jose Jose: My Aikido background is so sparse that I would barely say I was qualified to be any kind of a source, but I DO teach a similar technique in my HapKiDo class, although the angles are a little different, and the targets in the neck area are defined a little differently. As far as "irimi" is concerned, an Aikido instructor friend and I were discussing this very term last week at my school, and he recounted hearing at least four different meanings (interpretations) for this same term over career. His answer was to teach in English only to avoid confusing his students when they trained at seminars etc.. J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 17:12:36 -0400 From: ABurrese@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Color code Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks Mark, That does help. How is the rest of the book Defensive Living you cited? That's one I have not read yet. BTW: Are you going to make it out to MT this summer? Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:46:37 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Four corner throw Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce wrote: > Yep. The standard or best known 4-Dir. Throw is the Inside or Entering > version. I would call this a "cross step and turn" movement with the direction being "in front," based upon the terminology used by the USHF. I would advise either breaking the opponent's right arm as you enter (making the throw a little easier), or just dropping to the knee as a rule when performing this variant. Now for the outside movement, I'm afraid you lost me again. You wrote: > However, It does not work the other way. Performing the same technique (4 > Dir Throw, right hand cross grab) in an Outside aplication one must step > two-shoulder-widthes behind with the right foot AND drop the hips. This > causes the attackers' weight to load on the nearer foot and inhibits their > spinning out of the technique. However, as I mentioned earlier,to execute a > throw one would want to RAISE the individuals hips (Ctr of Grav) to cause > them to go airborne. What this creates are two different, almost opposed > vectors. The attacker feels the technique and wants to spin-out to relieve > the situation, but can't if the technique is executed properly.But now, > there is also the upward motion which is intended to raise the CTR of > Gravity. The attacker must now decide which vector to honor and not having > time, usually splits the difference and winds up on top of the defender, as > was seen at the Ft. Collins Seminar. My interpretation of this would be that you are assuming forward pressure by the attacker, since you don't step with the left foot to the outside and then spin with the right foot. -- I would call this a "step and spin" movement "to the outside" by the way. Instead, you seem to accept the pressure and just spin with the right foot, leaving the left foot as the pivot. Now I agree this one can be a pain to escape, especially if you're sweeping that right leg, but I think the opponent is only going to crawl up your back if you let him. If you maintain pain compliance on his right arm as you conduct this move, I don't think that is going to happen. I see this one as a great self-defense move, so I'm confused as to why you don't think it is. I also don't see why you would have to get your hip into the action; it just doesn't seem necessary. A A attacks B | V B A B steps to outside and grips A's right arm B | B\ B spins with right leg and unbalances A to the A rear for the throw All of this can be seen on the web at: www.ecbudokai.com/images/JPEGS/ Shihonage%20-%20Matt.jpg And this one is kind of what I'm talking about too: http://columbusaikikai.freehosting.net/images/shihonage.jpg and this one http://www.aikido-l.org/seminars/1999_us/pics/gion/Drysdale/shihonage10.jpg and here's a pretty cool line drawing of it: http://www.aikikai.it/esami/Programma/06KYU0~4.HTM Some problems I could see with bad shihos found on the web: http://www.aikidoofarlington.com/shihonage.jpg The defender lets their arms get too far away from their own center http://members.tripod.com/wagonomichi/wallpapers/shihonage.JPG This one has good unbalance, but I have no idea how the defender got that far behind the attacker. Doesn't seem realistic! By the way, if you don't like wooden models, you can see the exact same position here: http://canonnet.com/eugeneaikikai/images/shihonage.jpg Does this make sense? Are we on the same page here? If you think that this technique makes it easy to climb on the defender's back, then I would have to say that the same thing can happen with the "in front" movement we mentioned before. Still trying to figure this one out, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu PS: A cautionary note to the readers. Don't try this one unless your instructor teaches it to you. More friends of mine have received separated shoulders and dislocations from a careless shihonage (4 corner throw) than from any other technique. Just a word to the wise, ok? --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: "Dojang Digest (the_dojang@martialartsresource.net)" Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:53:57 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Where is Best Martial Arts Supply? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Folks, Does anyone know where Best Martial Arts Supply moved to? Please don't tell me they're out of business! I need my Sang Moo Sa! Hopefully, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Dana Vaillancourt" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 22:35:28 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Korean Sensei again (Kakita Kentei) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Eric. Does Mr. David Hillgrove teach in the Freeport area? I know of a Taekwondo stylist there. Master Mike Clark I believe is a 6th dan Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan (originally from one of those TSD/TKD organizations, but I do not believe he has any current affiliation) and Sensei Jeff Woods received his 4th dan Taekwondo from Master Jin. That part of Maine has quite a non-traditional/eclectic group of individuals not associated with any main-line Tae Kwon Do or Moo Duk Kwan organizations and tend to work with each other with seminars, promotions (regardless of rank), and tournements. Although they are rather eclectic in their teaching & terminology, I have not heard any complaints about their quality. Just a group willing to add new things and work outside of the convential system. Some acept this, others don't. The students don't seem to mind! Respectfully, Dana _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Kakita Kentei" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Korean Sensei again Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 19:02:47 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thank you for the interest Master McHenry. I will say that I find the videos on your website to be helpful for my own studies. -----Original Message----- From: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net [mailto:the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net]On Behalf Of d.mchenry Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 2:04 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Korean Sensei again Hi Eric, <> I first began my MA career in MDK TKD as well and am ranked in that too. My first instructor was Grandmaster Kim Soo's older brother, Kim Chang-soo. He didn't seem to use much Korean terms in class as I think he was working on his English. That is where I first leaned the term for uniform as "Gi" also :-) I think most of the students called the forms 'Kata' as well, but I'm not sure Master Kim ever did. After that and training in several Japanese arts for a while, it took me a long time to get the "G" and "K" words out of my vocabulary once I decided to focus on MooDukKwan TangSooDo... Thank you for the reply. Take care, Mac ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the EV1 webmail system at mail.ev1.net _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Laurie S." To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 19:17:52 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] WTF Manual Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hiya all. I have a question. This came up in another messege board. Someone said that the WTF has a manual (belt requirements, forms, step sparring, ect, ect). Is this true? If so, where can I find it? Is it in English? Thanks in advance. Laurie TKD green belt (TSD 5th gup) _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Kakita Kentei" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Re: Korean Sensei again (Kakita Kentei) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 19:29:17 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sensei Dave himself only teaches one class per week at the Camden YMCA, it's a kid's class the first hour, then he works out with whatever adults show up. He has subordinate black belts which teach from Warren to Rockport, and he even authorized me to establish a place to work out, if I can find the space. I've competed at tournaments in the last year all over, from Freeport to Master Clark's event, it's a good time. There is a TKD school in Freeport, as is a dojang of GM Park's school in Portland. -----Original Message----- From: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net [mailto:the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net]On Behalf Of Dana Vaillancourt Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 6:35 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Korean Sensei again (Kakita Kentei) Eric. Does Mr. David Hillgrove teach in the Freeport area? I know of a Taekwondo stylist there. Master Mike Clark I believe is a 6th dan Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan (originally from one of those TSD/TKD organizations, but I do not believe he has any current affiliation) and Sensei Jeff Woods received his 4th dan Taekwondo from Master Jin. That part of Maine has quite a non-traditional/eclectic group of individuals not associated with any main-line Tae Kwon Do or Moo Duk Kwan organizations and tend to work with each other with seminars, promotions (regardless of rank), and tournements. Although they are rather eclectic in their teaching & terminology, I have not heard any complaints about their quality. Just a group willing to add new things and work outside of the convential system. Some acept this, others don't. The students don't seem to mind! Respectfully, Dana _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 9 From: ConfuzedAlien@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 19:31:19 EDT Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] color code (another's view) To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello, all. This email is simply in regard to the current topic of belt color codes. I have no idea of traditional colorings, (although I'm sure that the "camouflage" belt is not among them...). It is a difficult task indeed to trace the belt ranking system! It seems that there is really no "right" system, since there is such a large variety of them. Even the largest Martial Arts organizations (even within the same art) vary with each other on their chosen systems. So, in the interest of sharing information, I'd like to present the colors, and their orders and symbolism, from our DoJang. (Black Belt Academy, Maryland). Our students first start at No Belt, for a short probationary period, in order to grasp the basics. -No belt- nothingness, pure, and clean -White Belt- something heavier than no belt, and the readiness to change color -Yellow Belt- the sunrise, and the opening to receive knowledge -Green Belt- the spring, staring to grow, and beginnings -Blue Belt- the sky, youthfulness, and ambition -Brown Belt- the earth or mountains, and developing a strong foundation -Red Belt- the sun, or blood, and developing the strong foundation of your body and nature -Black Belt- contains all colors, and signifies the deepest and most dense knowledge, or the accumulation of all proceeding levels In between belts, we have a stripe of the upcoming color belt to show progress within that particular learning bracket. (i.e., yellow stripe = a yellow belt with a green stripe through the center). We also have a number of Gup levels in between Black Belts. I hope you find this interesting. Respectfully, William C. Duff Assistant Instructor US Black Belt Academy --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] WTF Manual To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I have a question. This came up in another messege board. Someone said that > the WTF has a manual (belt requirements, forms, step sparring, ect, ect). Is > this true? If so, where can I find it? Is it in English? There is a "Kuk-Ki Taekwondo Text Book" from OH Seoung Publishing Company. ISBN 89-7336-738-2. You used to be able to get the hardback and softback versions from Best Martial Arts aka Sang Moo Sa. Videos of the Kukkiwon poomse that go along with this textbook were also available. Yep, in English. I most recently bought a copy for an instructor a couple of years ago, so it may still be available. The newer one was published in 1996. You can sometimes find a copy of the first edition (1975) on eBay. But, save the poomses shown, there aren't gup belt requirements listed as that would vary from dojang to dojang. Looks like they may be available at http://www.sangmoosa.co.kr/e_main.htm, but not sure if they ship to the US. Dakin, if the old phone nums for Sang Moo Sa (Best) in Bellflower, CA no longer work, there is a contact email addr avaiable at the above URL. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] color codes Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net On the color code sequence, someone (perhaps Mas Ayoob?) added a level after red, that being black. The original sequence works fine for military, but an additional level is needed(?) for civilians. The reasoning is that a civilian has more restrictions upon their actions than does the military in battle situations. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 00:36:18 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Throw Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce write: I believe that Michael is correct in saying that with practice couple can learn to negotiate this technique, but IMVHO I believe that what you have then is a coordinated acrobatic rather than a viable self-defense technique.>> Nope I didn't mean that you create a choreographed demonstration. The problem people have with this technique is that they don't lower their center of gravity on the spin around, it proggresively descends thru the steps, and then they don't go far enough and low enough behind to make it work. And or they don't do these things together at the same time causing fragmentation and imbalance, that is why people were having their opponents fall on their backs as you said. I know exactly what you are talking about with this throw Bruce and I have done it wrong and seen it done wrong many times. When you get it right you take your spin step and drop your weight VERY fast and at the same time you don't let up on the tension on the opponents wrist, it looks like a tenkan but it's not,it's a little different than that, it takes time and plenty of reps to get this technique right, you end up moving very fast and very close to the ground, I have a couple aces in the whole with this technique,, 1) I'm built like a yard gorrila my arms are actually longer then my legs, 2) I wrestled for decades so I am used to these kind of stepping patterns, and it is very ugly when you don't do it right,, and what I meant about being able to fall good is that when you get it right it is very unuser friendly so you have to have a partner that can take the fall, not choreograph the fall,, for instance,, my number one student can fall so well now that I can go about 99% full speed on him because I am not worried about his safety anymore, I know he will relax and flow with the go.. for example, when we do, do demo's we don't choreograph anything anymore,, I just say,, attack me with whatever hold you want for about 10 times, and then I say punch me anyway you want for about 10 times,, attack me with this knife or club 10 times,, etc.. we don't rehearse or put techniques in order,, he knows I am coming hard but he has the trust in me to relax, I have the trust in him to not land on his skull!! I used to study Aikido a little myself, and have probably read at least 30 Aikido books,, there are probably more books on Aikido than any other martial art!! And I realized something,, AIKIDO AND HAPKIDO ARE NOTHING ALIKE AT ALL!! I know this might surprise some people or make them angry but it is true,, there are slight similarites but they are totally two different arts,, Aikido has a different mindset, stepping, and throwing pattern than Hapkido and I think that if you get used to comparing techniques from one to the other you basically homogenize Hapkido. Doju Nim Ji does a lot of throwing techniques that you can't even practice the total throw for because there is no landing possible without severe injury.. again, Hapkido throwing is a different mindset and the throwing techniques are mostly meant to maim or severly injure your opponent. Basically in Hapkido a throw is an oxymoron. I think the problem comes up when you try to tame some of these into a more user friendly version,, now you are getting closer to Aikido or Judo (no offense to Judo) and you can totally ruin or change the true dynamics of the original technique, although a lot of Hapkido throws look like Aikido or Judo when you learn them the right way from someone who learned them in the very beginning from Choi, as Doju Nim Ji did they are totally different throws then what you have seen before. I know the Sin Moo guys on here know the one throw called the step behind hip bump, where you step all the way behind your opponent while still tweaking his wrist, and then place your hips below his but and throw him over your back,, it is hard to explain but this throw at very best will break your opponents shoulder, neck, or back when he hits the ground,, to do this technique where you can cause a successfull landing for the opponent you have to change the stepping, and body placment of the original technique and so you have ruined the true intention of the original technique.. Doju Nim Ji has quite a few throws like these that are not meant to be able to land from,, and THAT IS THE WHOLE IDEA!! This is also why I say you have to go to several Sin Moo training sessions to get it, again, I am not trying to sell Sin Moo to anyone, and if it not for you so be it, I am just saying that it takes time for the techniques to really ferment into your own system, but once you get it, it strengthens all the other stuff you did before. I hope this helps Bruce a little in the understanding of Sin Moo Hapkido. Hey Bruce I'll make you a deal, IF you attend three more Sin Moo training sessions I'll give you a package of my complete curriculum terminology and everything will lock in like a greased jigsaw puzzle! Don't freak out on me guys Bruce knows I am just pulling his string on this but I swear I will give you the sheet Bruce. Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest