Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 09:36:27 -0500 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #326 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Irimi nage (Klaas Barends) 2. WTF Manual (Laurie S.) 3. RE: Irimi-nage Stuff (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 4. Kat Kelly Posting (Cliff.Vaught@pmusa.com) 5. RE: Outside 4-D-T stuff (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 6. RE: Seminar approaches (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 7. RE:Approaches and Thoughts (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 8. World Kidohae (Ray Terry) 9. RE: Master Richards' New Dojang and Thank Yous (Dunn, Danny J RASA) 10. Stay yellow on the 4th (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 07:03:05 +0200 From: Klaas Barends To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Irimi nage Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > So my question for the Hapkido teachers is: Do you know the Irime Nage > of Aikido? Do you teach it in your Hapkido curriculum? Is this standard in > Hapkido curriculum or is it added by certain Hapkido masters who may have > greater knowledge or experience of Aikido.? Master JR West who is also ranked > in Aikido would be of help here. Jose First, thnx for visiting my website :) Second, the Korean master you see is not doing a hapkido technique but a hankido technique. Hankido was developed by late master Myong Jae Nam of the International HKD Federation in the eighties. Master Myong was also the representative for the Aikikai in Korea for some time. Hankido was heavily inspired by aikido, let me put it that way. -- kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Laurie S." To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 02:11:52 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] WTF Manual Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks for the info, Ray :o) Laurie TKD green belt (TSD 5th gup) _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 07:04:57 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Irimi-nage Stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jose' "..... I have not encountered the classic irime nage in Hapkido training or seminars. Ive seen leading the opponent and then reversing the momentum into a wrist throw, for example, but not the classic irime nage as practiced in Aikido. So my question for the Hapkido teachers is: Do you know the Irime Nage of Aikido? Do you teach it in your Hapkido curriculum? Is this standard in Hapkido curriculum or is it added by certain Hapkido masters who may have greater knowledge or experience of Aikido.? Master JR West who is also ranked in Aikido would be of help here......" I can't boast the level of expertise that Master West has. I answer only because I teach a number of Irimi-Nage techniques. In fairness to Hapkido as an art, this category of techniques are well-known not only in Aikido/Aiki-ju-jutsu arts but in the Chinese Chuan Fa/ChinNa techniques as well. I believe that most folks shy away from teaching these as they often require a committed attack and can loft a student quite a distance. As much as I can harp about everybody "throwing towards the door" (throwing in one direction only) there is always serious risk of collision. There is also the problem of confidence with folks who are attacked half-heartedly being faced with an attcker who, knowing the technique to come sometimes "stalls" their punch. Anticipating that they would have much more energy to work with, the defender then finds that they must often "muscle" the technique. Just as a side note, there is a cousin to this technique which is almost straight out of Chuan Fa which overcomes this last problem by smacking the opposite foot rearwards and so, abetting the forward motion of the attacker, but it usually requires a very low and extended stance. Most people I have seen who fail at Irimi-Nage seem to fall back on just throwing a headlock on the attacker and hefting him over their hip. No art, but it works OK, I guess. :-) . Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Cliff.Vaught@pmusa.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 09:06:05 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Kat Kelly Posting Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I visited the links provided by Ms. Kelly and saw a paragraph in the Tae Sool Won website that threw me for a loop: "Master Trudeau wanted to add more self defense to his knowledge so with this he began training in the art of Kuk Sool. While attending several seminars, given by the Grandmaster of Kuk Sool Won, Suh, In Hyuk, he became affiliated with the World Ki Do Federation, which governs 98% of all Traditional Korean Martial Arts under the direction of Grandmaster In Sun Seo." 98%??? So all of Tae Kwon Do, Soo Bahk Do, and Tang Soo Do fall under the governing body of the World Ki Do Federation? Where did that number come from and who is the World Ki Do Federation? I've been involved in Korean martial arts for over 15 years and I've never heard of it. I am an E Dan in the Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan and have studied the history of Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan and Tang Soo Do and no one has ever mentioned this Federation. Can you explain? I don't even see those organizations listed in the table of styles/schools. I then went to the Dae Han KiDohae site and looked up GM In Sun Seo - how could it be that he certified over 200,000 Dans in the last 18 years (1983 is when he started) - that would be over 30/day for 365 days/year. Pretty tough to do that and publish 7 books and serve as the head of 3 large organizations. Then it says that "Grandmaster Seo is the only first generation martial artist to teach and operate a dojang in Korea continuously for the last 35 years." Perhaps today, GM Hwang Kee doesn't actively teach and operate a dojang in Korea - I don't know and maybe Ray or Alain can substantiate that since they've been there and are list members - but isn't that a pretty outrageous claim? Can he really be a "first generation" Korean martial artist when Chung Do Kwan, Tae Soo Do, Tang Soo Do, and Moo Duk Kwan all preceded World War 2 and survived to organize in the years immediately after? Since he didn't get involved until the 1950's, wouldn't that make him 2nd generation? I'm not trying to disparage GM Seo or even Ms. Kelly. I go to every Korean martial arts website I find out about and some of the stuff I read is so amazing - some outrageous claims, such as a 30 year old 7th Dan. (Hey, I don't know how long it takes in other styles, but I know in Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan it takes at least 32 years to go from white belt to 7th Dan in the curriculum, and that's if you pass every test every time!) Do we have to inflate our histories, our resumes, our metrics? Can't things just stand for themselves? Cliff Vaught --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 08:32:31 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Outside 4-D-T stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Dakin: "......Now for the outside movement, I'm afraid you lost me again....." Yes, trying to discuss these complex movements, economically, in print can be a real bear. Let me make just a couple of comments. I think the overall jist of what I wanted to get across was not that the Outside application of 4-Dir throw was somehow less effective. Its a bit trickier than its Inside cousin but still very effective. What I was working to communicate was that just because one can modify the biomechanic of that takedown into a throw, did automatically follow that one could modify the Outside 4-D-T also into a throw. My explanation about the vectors was my way of communicating why such an application would not work for an application intended as a combat throw. I would still use the Outside 4-D-T for combat though in more limited circumstances. In the matter of pain compliance, let me just say that at the first level of Hapkido I think this is a very important tool. However, at the 2nd and third level I think that it would/should be taking a "back seat" to precision, proximity, knowledge of angles and the like. It does not take a lot of skill to hurt people, and gawd knows it does not take a lot of skill to injure these bodies we have. It is, for instance, very easy to pronate the wrist while executing a throw to get the person to go along with you. However, I think that a higher level of execution to manipulate circumstances such that the attacker gets the (subliminal?) message that the only choice he has is to go along with the vector the defender has selected as the least objectionable alternative and not always just to relieve the pain he is feeling. I mention all of this because you commented that you could not see why one would want to "get your hip into the action". As I work on my Hapkido I find that once I understand the gross motor skill I then work to move away from using "crank" to get the technique to happen. However, this means that using hip and shoulder and extension to misalign and unbalance my partner INCREASE in importance. I don't have to use Pain & Body Motion together, but the technique won't work without one or the other. BTW: Thanks very much for all the URLS. Maybe we can keep these in a back pocket to help when discussing such techniques in the future. Yes, I know we would be using Japanese material to discuss a Korean art but think of all the bandwidth we would save Ray! :-) Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 07:28:51 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Seminar approaches Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Sharon: ".......I have to disagree with this last statement. Especially at an open seminar, many participants will be unknown to the instructor. Typically, there are many ranks present and often several styles represented. The explanations that may be desired by advanced practitioners are often over the head of less-experienced students or those from a different background. Teaching time and content must be to the benefit of all present. The limited time allowed in a seminar makes it impossible for the instructor and helpers to completely personalize the instruction for every student, especially when long explanations are desired. ...." Let me just say that early-on in my MA career I would have agreed with you completely. It is somewhat different to entertain detailed questions in a classroom than it is at a seminar. I would agree with you for the very reasons that you have given as well -- disparate arts, varied approaches to KMA, a range of ranks and so forth. What I have found, however, is that it IS possible to use a more interactive approach if the person who is presenting the seminar makes a few adjustments to the generally accepted seminar model. One adjustment is to consider narrowing the focus of the seminar. Most seminars are given not as educational expereinces but as commercial events. Even if the event itself is not profitable, the idea of bringing in a big name focuses attention on the school or club and aids in enrollment. This in itself is not bad, but I was speaking of narrowing the focus and this means advertising, up front that the focus of the event is going to be a specific range of techniques or a specific approach (IE. Yon Mu Kwan Ke Bon Su, or perhaps "10 Basic Ground-fighting techniques". Another adjustment is simply asking "are there any questions". What I have found in the seminars that I have done is that after asking this question a few times and students getting over the initial shock of hearing it, participants cut loose with a flurry of questions, about half of which are outside of what I am presenting on. These can be deferred to later. The appropriate questions (those applicable to matters at hand) begin to taper off to ones and two and are not that disruptive. A third thing I do which is VERY helpful is that I have the student do the technique on ME. I find that the student learns faster if I am recieving his technique and coaching him from "underneath" rather than doing it to him or having him do it to another and I am coaching from "above". Most of the time I find that I can take care of myself pretty well and avoid injury even if the student does a really gross f***-up. A fourth approach is one that I have seen used VERY effectively at Master Wests twice a year seminars. In these cases people who have a recognized expertise in some area of KMA present on that subject. Master West is always around to contribute but usually the folks who are selected are very accomplished in their subject. However, I could imagine a seminar wherein each sub-unit is presented in such a way that a member of a personalitys' retinue presents the material and it is the personality himself that circulates among the practitioners tweaking this and that. This would be sorta the flip of what happens at most seminars where the personality presents and the helpers do the fine-tuning (never quite understood that :-) ). FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 07:50:18 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE:Approaches and Thoughts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Patrick: ".......I disagree that Kumdo is 'more hapkido' than Kendo, and once again find myself in the postition of reminding you that the direction of a particular Hapkido oprganization is up to it's Master, and beyond the scope of lower belt desires or opinion (even though they are sure to have both). Adjustments to cirriculim should be done by those running the organization. There is nothing wrong with waiting one's turn to make changes......" Regarding the nature of Kumdo, we could have a fine stroll down Korean history and get into some pretty interesting hair-splitting about terminology, technique and the like. There are 24 Bup or "postures" characteristic of Kumdo while there are about 5 in the original Kendo. Technically speaking then, it would probably be more accurate to identify Kendo as a subset of traditional Kumdo but I think that would set the IKF to howling. Then there is the question of whether we are talking about Kumdo since 1953 wherein it became more approximate to the IKF for competition purposes, or are we talking about Kumdo during or before the Occupation which was a time in which at least four major influences including the Japanese Police Kata, the Toyama Military Kata, Nakamura Sensei and his generation of instructors, the Chinese cadre' all worked an influence on the existing Korean Military tradition of the time. I also agree that the adjustments to curriculum should be made by those running the organization. However, in practice there are a number of reasons that this never quite gets around to happening. One reason is that introducing alternate ways of executing a technique or teaching a technique is viewed as affrontive to the leadership and the organization rather than as a contribution to be considered. Another reason is that most leadership is to full of itself to consider that perhaps they have been doing something less than efficiently for years. Yet, another reason is that many practitioners, by the time they have gotten into a position to invoke change are then as short-sighted, or narrow-focused as the person they learned from. In short, then, KMA is not long on tolerance and flexibility even if such things are proven to contribute to the health of an organization. I believe that in a misguided effort to protect the integrity and authenticity of the curriculum not a few leaders squelch the students' greatest asset to the organization---- the ability to see the same thing, the same way, but with a different set of eyes and values. best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 07:20:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] World Kidohae Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > this he began training in the art of Kuk Sool. While attending several > seminars, given by the Grandmaster of Kuk Sool Won, Suh, In Hyuk, he became > affiliated with the World Ki Do Federation, which governs 98% of all > Traditional Korean Martial Arts under the direction of Grandmaster In Sun > Seo." > 98%??? So all of Tae Kwon Do, Soo Bahk Do, and Tang Soo Do fall under the > governing body of the World Ki Do Federation? Where did that number come > from and who is the World Ki Do Federation? The Workd Ki Do Fed is a group headquartered just up the road from me here in the San Francisco Bay Area (they are in Fremont, CA). Lets just say that the Korea KidoHae has a better rep than the World KidoHae, imho. Giving them the benefit of doubt, they might get be able to get to the 98% figure by throwing out the groups like TKD (a martial sport) and perhaps SBD & TSD (Karate). Just a guess.?.?. And don't shoot me for saying that... :) For the other folks, you can find them at http://www.kidohae.com. > generation martial artist to teach and operate a dojang in Korea > continuously for the last 35 years." Perhaps today, GM Hwang Kee doesn't > actively teach and operate a dojang in Korea - I don't know and maybe Ray or > Alain can substantiate that since they've been there and are list members - > but isn't that a pretty outrageous claim? IIRC, Hwang Kee doesn't teach these days, but his dojang is still going strong. You can see pictures of it at martialartsresource.com. His office is up on the 3rd floor. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 09:04:42 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Master Richards' New Dojang and Thank Yous Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Master Richards, Congratulations on your new dojang. I am sure that it will serve you and your students well. And thank you for the hospitality you showed a poor weary traveler to one too many conferences. Spending the evening with you,your family and your students was a wonderful experience. And thanks for the great dinner. Hopefully next I will be recovered enough so that I can actually work out with you. And I'm not suprised that great minds :) think alike. Tang Soo!!! Danny Dunn <<>>>>> <<<>>>>>>>>>>>>> --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang), eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 07:35:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Stay yellow on the 4th Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Attached is an old post from 7+ years ago. With the news coverage on the possibility of another terror attack on or near the July 4th holiday, please remember that condition yellow is a great place to be. Ray ====================================================================== Forwarded message: From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 16:30:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: eskrima: Refined FMA > ENVIROMENTAL AWARENESS > These folks are keenly aware of their surroundings and the behavior of > people around them. Their senses are fine-tuned to pick up slight changes in > the environment. They don't take the environment for granted. For example, > you might be sitting around the tendahan having a San Miguel or two and you'll > notice that they check out the scene very quickly when they walk in to see > what's up, choose a strategic seat, and almost unconsciously check out every > person that walks in the door. Just second nature and relaxed about it all. Great stuff in all the three posts from Jon, via the Woodpecker. I especially appreciate the above. Many of the tactical firearms trainers would term this 'condition yellow'. In condition white you're daydreaming, thinking about work, thinking about the argument with the wife this morning, whatever. You don't notice your environment very much. In condition yellow you are aware of those in front of you, those to the side and back, you notice the clouds in the sky and the birds singing. In general you just notice the things going on around you. Condition yellow is a great place to 'live' as you're noticing the beauty of creation and everything and everybody around you. The other condition colors will vary slightly depending on the source, but condition orange is when you think -something- is wrong. You're now on the lookout for something to go wrong, at ANY time. In condition red something -is- wrong. You are starting to activate your tactical training, getting your weapons ready for use, taking cover, starting to get out of the area, dialing 911, whatever. In condition black the feces has hit the oscillator and a life, usually your life, is in danger. This is when you begin to employ deadly force to save your life or the life of another. Condition yellow is a great place to live... Ray Terry --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest