Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:40:48 -0500 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #327 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Kukkiwon Textbook (SallyBaughn@aol.com) 2. Re: [Eskrima] From Tuhon Bill (AE Bohanon) 3. Four corner throw (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 4. RE: Tests (Dunn, Danny J RASA) 5. Survival Drills (TNTcombatives@aol.com) 6. RE: Sin Mu Tech Stuff (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 7. four corner throw (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 8. Sin Moo Tech Stuff (Ray Terry) 9. RE: Thoughts on teaching approaches (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 10. Re: Kukkiwon textbook (Piotr Bernat) 11. WTF manual (Chris Hamilton EZ Lock) 12. Black Lap/WTF manual (Laurie S.) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: SallyBaughn@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 10:32:13 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Kukkiwon Textbook Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net My son has had this book for about four years (the paperback). I understand it is used for the Instructor Course given at Kukkiwon headquarters in Korea, so it would seem to be the authority as far as forms go. Is it good? Probably depends on what you're looking for. There's a lot of philosophy and history of the art included, but there's also a lot of how to teach and what you should know, etc. It's pretty dry, but there is lots of good info to be found if you're willing to search thru it. Sorry I can't be of more help, but it's really a textbook - so you aren't going to have a ripping good read, but there's much to be learned from it. Sally --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "AE Bohanon" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] [Eskrima] From Tuhon Bill Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 07:39:15 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Not just dads, but mom's too! I have a 20 month old, a 6 year old, a full time student and just got my yellow belt in Tae Kwon Do. Amy Bohanon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Terry" To: "The_Dojang" Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 7:56 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] [Eskrima] From Tuhon Bill > Cross-posting from the Eskrima/FMA list. Of possible interest... > > Ray > ================================================================= > > Why I haven't written: > (subtitled: Help, I am being held hostage by a 30" midget pretending to be a > 17 month old todler!) > > As the dad's on the list know your time is not your own with a young child > in the house. Between family, work, martial arts and running Pekiti-Tirsia > International, I have had little time for writing lately. My appologies if I > offended anyone with my post "From a marine". I received it via email, liked > what he said about violence, and did a quick post to the digest. To make > ammends here is an article from an upcoming issue of the PTI newsletter. I > plan on submitting it to the martial arts mags, so if you have any > suggestions or favorite drills that would fit the article, please send them > my way. > > Regards, > Tuhon Bill McGrath > > SURVIVAL DRILLS-BEYOND SPARRING > By Tuhon Bill McGrath > > Basic symmetrical sparring, with two evenly matched opponents, is a great > way to introduce midlevel students to the skills they need for combat. They > can stay there their whole martial arts careers if all they are going to > fight in are tournaments. Things are different in a real fight though. > Success is defined not by scoring more points, or even knocking your > opponent out, but by your coming out of the altercation in as close to the > same physical condition as you went into it as possible. Unless you are a > law enforcement officer, on the street your mind should be focused on the > word "Escape" rather than on "Win." One concept you must understand is that > real street attacks are rarely as symmetrical as a regular sparring match. > Seldom on the street are you attacked by someone your size, your age and > armed with the exact same weapon as you are carrying. Usually street attacks > are more asymmetrical. The opponent (or opponents) is larger or stronger, > has superior numbers or is better armed than the person he is attacking. If > they didn't think the odds were in their favor, they wouldn't attack you in > the first place. Therefore, to prepare for the real world we need to make > our sparring reflect this asymmetrical aspect. The following drills should > help. > > Note: Keep each "round" of fighting to 5 to 10 seconds since it is in this > timeframe that most real fights are won or lost. Students should fight no > more than four rounds in a row both as a safety factor and to add realism, > since most real fights are of short duration. I like these drills for > advanced students who have already gotten their basics down. > > GRAB BAG SPARRING. Take a variety of practice weapons and paint numbers on > them. Have practice versions of knives, sticks, pipes (I wrap a rattan stick > with gray tape to signify a heavy pipe) a machete' (here I use red tape), a > rolled up newspaper, a length of rope with a rubber ball at the end to > signify a belt with a heavy buckle, a leather jacket, etc. Let's say you > come up with 10 different weapons. Line these up on the floor. Now take 11 > slips of paper and write a number (1 to 11) on each slip. Put the slips in a > hat and let the students pick a number. Whatever they come up with, that is > what they will fight with. As you probably have already guessed, if they > draw an 11, they fight without a weapon. Stage 2 is to let the students pick > two slips of paper each and fight with what ever comes out of the hat in > doble' or espada y daga style. Note: If you see a great disparity of force > (i.e. large student with a "machete" vs. small student with a "knife") try > to even things out by going two on one and giving the smaller student a > partner. > > STREET WALK 1. Two opponents start to walk towards each other from opposite > sides of the school on opposing parallel lines (like you would when two > people walk down the street towards each other). Teacher gives the "go" > signal to fight at any time, either approaching or when the students have > passed each other. > > STREET WALK 2. One student plays bad guy and chooses distance to attack (or > whether to attack at all). > > STREET WALK 3. Three or more "bad guys" walk towards the "good guy". Only > one of the bad guys will attack, but when and who is unknown to the good guy. > > STREET WALK 4. Similar to 3 except 1, 2 or 3 students can attack. Good guy > student's job is to escape through a door or to a "safe" zone marked on > floor. He can't attack someone unless they first attack him. > > BODYGUARD 1. You and a "non-combatant" (such as a child or elderly person), > are attacked and you must get the non-combatant to safety. What are the > differences in strategy when protecting an adult who can run vs. protecting > a young child who cannot? > > BODYGUARD 2. Full combatant partnered with semi-combatant. My Penchak > instructor called this "husband and wife training." In a standoff, wife can > guide husband backwards towards safety while he keep an eye on the bad guys. > During an altercation, wife watches husband's back and gets in a hit when > needed. > > HOME INVASION 1. Put a line of tape on the floor to make a "doorway". > Student 1 stands before the door. Student 2 faces him. It is student 2's job > to get through the door and it is student 1's job to prevent him. (I tell > student 1 to think that his family is behind the door and student 2 is a > home invader. Conversely, I tell student 2 that student 1 is an invader who > has broke into his home and that a second invader is in the room with his > wife and kids. Therefore each student in his own mind is playing the "good > guy".) > > HOME INVASION 2. This is best done in a real doorway, (choose one without > glass in it or near it). Student is answering his front door. Three > opponents are outside of the home. When door opens bad guys try to push > their way in. Good guy defends with hands, knife, stick, machete, handgun or > long gun. Space and time limitations come into play (how fast can they enter > vs. how fast can you put them all down) as well as the use of the door > itself as a shield or a weapon. > > BASIC PRACTICE: You can work principals you will need for combat into your > everyday practice. > > THREE PARTNERS 1: When partnering up to practice a technique, partner up by > threes instead of by twos. Student 1 does the technique one time on student > 2 then one time on student 3. Then student 2 becomes the "good guy" and does > the technique on student 1 then student 3. Next student 3 becomes the good > guy and practices on students 2 and 1. Practicing this way helps prevent the > tunnel vision that can lead you to focus too much on opponent 1 while > opponent 2 is stabbing you in the back. > > THREE PARTNERS 2. Like TP1 except on the instructor's signal, one student > from each group will leave and go to another group. > > > THE CATERPILLAR. Students form two lines. The students in Line 1 are the > attackers and they hold their positions during the drill. Line 2 are the > defenders and they will move during the drill. The signal is given and each > student in Line 1 attacks the student in front of him in Line 2. Students in > Line 2 defend using a specific technique. On a signal from the instructor, > each student in Line 2 moves one place to his right coming before a new > opponent. The student at the end of Line 2 runs off the line and circles to > the beginning of the line. Once Line 2 has made a complete circuit, the > lines change tasks and Line 2 becomes the attackers and Line 1 the > defenders. Keep this drill simple at first. Use one specific attack and one > specific counter until everyone has had a chance to both attack and defend. > Then you can compare different defenses. Have a round of "Attack 1 vs. > Defense 1" then a round of "Attack 1 vs. Defense 2". This drill helps the > students become familiar with working with different body types and skill > levels. It also helps them analyze a technique and understand its strengths > and weaknesses (i.e. "Defense 1" might be better against a left jab from an > opponent who is taller than you, but "Defense 2" might be better against a > left jab if the opponent is shorter than you). > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 10:00:21 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Four corner throw Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce wrote: > What I was working > to communicate was that just because one can modify the biomechanic of that > takedown into a throw, did automatically follow that one could modify the > Outside 4-D-T also into a throw. Ok, I can see that. So your point was that adding a hip toss into the mix on an outside four corner throw did not help, and that the "takedown" as you called it was the way to go. Right? > I mention all of this because you commented that you could not see > why one would want to "get your hip into the action". As I work on my > Hapkido I find that once I understand the gross motor skill I then work to > move away from using "crank" to get the technique to happen. However, this > means that using hip and shoulder and extension to misalign and unbalance my > partner INCREASE in importance. I don't have to use Pain & Body Motion > together, but the technique won't work without one or the other. Oh, I wasn't referring to body motion when I talked about the hip. Of course you should be using proper body motion, plus pain compliance, plus unbalancing when doing any technique, but in this particular instance, the hip toss is not all that useful (doesn't add much to the technique). > I know we > would be using Japanese material to discuss a Korean art A throw is a throw, right? If you have a good picture of someone in a Korean uniform as opposed to a Japanese or Chinese one, just let me know! I thought the wooden artist's models were a nice neutral picture to go with. :) Yours in the arts, Dakin burdickd@indiana.edu --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 10:34:26 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Tests Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Anne, In my dojang, all tests are cumulative, meaning that a student is responsible for all material up to the day of his/her test. This is from 10th gup through 1st gup and to cho dan bo, which would translate best as "black belt candidate". I expect to see all kicks and hand techniques in three ways, with correct technique, accurate focus and with power. All forms the student knows, with improvement in all lower forms. All onestep sparring basic ho sin sool techniques learned. Rolling and falling according to rank, as well as takedowns, throws, joint locking and manipulation. Freesparring with senior, junior and same ranks, with contact according to rank and experience. At 4th gup and above, I expect to see solid freestyle self defense against one or more attackers, armed and unarmed. (Not sparring against an opponent.) For advanced gups, I may ask them to do techniques, forms, self defense blindfolded. All tests above 8th gup have a written test, which includes mostly discussion type questions. 4th gup and above also have to write a paper on an assigned topic which forces each individual, if I have done my job correctly to examine themselves and weigh strong points against weak points. As for breaking, we don't do that much. One power break with hands and one with feet, technique according to rank. Speed break with hands or feet according to rank. Tang Soo!!! Danny Dunn <<<>>> --__--__-- Message: 5 From: TNTcombatives@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 11:41:41 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Survival Drills Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Outstanding. I use many similar type drills in MA training...and take it several steps further in my LE training. I think every instructor should incorporate this kind of training in their self defense programs. The only thing I would add is to have participants in safety gear, so they can use high levels of force if needed. The intensity of situations can cause some pretty heavy, adrenaline charged contact. Question: For those who do this type of scenario / situation / special high intensity training, at what belt/knowledge level do you allow students to participate? Mark Gajdostik TNT-Police Combatives --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 10:12:51 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Sin Mu Tech Stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Michael: "..... I am used to these kind of stepping patterns, and it is very ugly when you don't do it right,, and what I meant about being able to fall good is that when you get it right it is very unuser friendly so you have to have a partner that can take the fall, not choreograph the fall,, for instance,, my number one student can fall so well now that I can go about 99% full speed on him because I am not worried about his safety anymore, I know he will relax and flow with the go......." I think I know what you are saying about the application and we may be saying the same thing when all is said and done. This is not a very easy concept to describe and I know that most MA in the world (at least the grappling ones) seem to routinely fall back on the "lead your partners' Ki" to express what I want to say. Personally, I don't know from "Ki". However, I do believe that when executing a technique, the excution should direct a partner to a specific end or goal (ie. a fall, a lock, a pin, etc.). One way to get them there is to use pain-compliance to sort of shepard them in the right direction. They do what you want them to do because it hurts too much not to. Past pain-compliance, though, is the idea that a person goes along with the movement because the point at which the attackers' volition is taken over by the defenders' volition is so obscure as to defy identification. In this case the attacker is still running on his own energy but is being "steered" or directed by the defenders' guidance and the whole thing comes to an end before the attacker can put on the brakes. As I read your post, Michael, I am hearing that someone who practices with you often will learn the various vectors that you use so well that they can pretty much follow your lead no matter which vector you decide to use. This lets you practice those angles and vectors and practice them hard--- and all this is good. When GM Ji executed the technique we are discussing at the seminar I was thoroughly familiar with the Outside 4-Dir Throw. His execution of the throwing technique variation of the Outside 4-Dir-throw lead me right up to the point that I got the two messages I spoke of in my post to Dakin. The issue was not knowing how to fall out of the technique. The issue was how to avoid plowing my 180# bod into GM Jis' 70+ y/o one. This issue is not unique to this particular technique, either. Techniques executed from positions of disadvantage such as sitting or lying on the ground----- especially wrist techniques---- often run into this same problem. In a combat situation I would not want to put myself in this situation, which I think would happen with an attacker who has not had hours of mat time with me to know how to properly avoid running me over. In that case, I think the attacker would simply opt just to plow into me and make it a scramble on the ground. We CERTAINLY agree on one point and that is that Hapkido and Aikido, for all their superficial similarities are not the same--- just like judo and ju-jutsu are not the same. Both arts have many of the same ingredients but are used in different proportions. The result is something as different as pie and cookies. The only advantage I can see is that in the post WW II era there has been a lot of material written on Aikido that helps when discussing Hapkido techniques. So far, nobody I know has written a diffinitive book on Hapkido such as AIKIDO AND THE DYNAMIC SPHERE by Ratti and Westerbrook or OS Saitos' five volume set. Even Tedeschis' book which is currently all the rage is nothing more than a catalogue of techniques and Dr. Kimms' book despite its organization and great history is essentially a catalogue rather than a study of the art. What is missing is a definitive work that accords the use of the body the same respect that coaching books for other activities such as baseball, tennis and golf. I think we also agree that neither one of us want to see traditional Hapkido "tamed" into some pseudo-MA or "martial sport" as in the case of Olympic TKD or Olympic Judo. I believe that it can be done but by training smarter-- not harder. As I share with my students-- repeatedly-- traditional Hapkido is not for everyone and I don't pretend that it is. I think that it is incumbant on those of us who are in higher ranks, to apply our brain power to regularly honor the intent of the original while finding more effective ways of tranmitting the art to the next generation. I don't believe it must be business as usual for repeated generations. BTW: "..... Hey Bruce I'll make you a deal, IF you attend three more Sin Moo training sessions I'll give you a package of my complete curriculum terminology and everything will lock in like a greased jigsaw puzzle!....." Hey, I can live with that! :-) Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 12:24:05 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] four corner throw Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Argh. Right after I say that the hip toss is an unnecessary addition to a four corner throw, Michael Tomlinson says it is the only way it should be done, so that the opponent cannot fall safely! So here's my comments on that post, ok? Michael Tomlinson wrote: > Doju Nim Ji does a lot of throwing techniques that you can't even practice > the total throw for because there is no landing possible without severe > injury.. again, Hapkido throwing is a different mindset and the throwing > techniques are mostly meant to maim or severly injure your opponent. Let me say that I think that although hapkido can be a very successful style of unarmed combat (as Michael describes), it can also be used for self-defense. It is like having a gun. Just because your revolver has six bullets does not mean you have to shoot the guy six times. You may not have to fire at all. In the same way, one can practice defense where you don't snap the neck or spine. It makes good sense in the US, since you go to jail for murder (ie. broken neck from one of those high intensity throws) and if you don't you can be sued in civil court for damages (imagine supporting your attacker and his family for the rest of your life because you left him a paraplegic. Sure we could do the 4 corner throw with a hip toss, but it really isn't necessary, in my opinion. We could also hook his neck with crook of a cane with one hand and then four corner throw him with the other, but again, that might be a little too much overkill. Of course, you have to balance the consequences for yourself. If you are a little person and the attacker is a monster, well, you may have to take it up a notch or two! And you probably will have more leeway in court. I just know I'm a pretty big guy so I try to watch out for my attacker a bit. On another topic, anyone else seen the Bourne Identity yet? I loved the fight scenes. Very efficient! Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 12:35:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Sin Moo Tech Stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > issue was not knowing how to fall out of the technique. The issue was how to > avoid plowing my 180# bod into GM Jis' 70+ y/o one. He is 70-, not 70+. But somehow I think he would have survived... :) Once in class a few years ago Gm Ji said to a good friend (then a Sin Moo 4th Dan, a former Ranger, with many years as a prison guard), "throw me". He very quickly grabbed Gm Ji and rolled backwards into what I term a monkey flip. Gm Ji mostly blocked the throw, but did end up on the ground (I personally would consider that a success). Point being??? He isn't afraid to mix it up... To continue on with more stories, this same fellow had spent time while in the Army along the DMZ. During that time he had been trained in Hapkido, but under the guise of military hand-to-hand combat. Years later in California he and his wife would often sit near or next to a nice gentleman in church on Sunday mornings. Pleasant conversation would frequently be exchanged, but he never realized who this gentleman was. Later he found out it was Gm Ji, and he was finally able to continue his study of military hand-to-hand combat. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 13:19:08 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Thoughts on teaching approaches Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Rudy: Thanks for taking the time to really examine what I was asking about. I'm sorry it took a couple of days to get back to you, but it wasn't because I was not thoroughly impressed with your approach. In fact, I can probably see an opportunity for your first million by bottling and selling whatever got you to be so balanced in your administrative approach. The greatest fear that I hear people expressing is that somehow, in someway, people will take the easy way out, the curriculum will change and the art will be diluted. What I am hearing you say is that it is possible to be firm about the content of a curriculum without being rigid about the way it is presented or taught. At first blush, that does not seem like that would be such a challenge. But then, I have done push-ups and sit-ups my whole life only to read a few years back that both are bad for me. Fine time to tell me! Where were these jerk-offs in Boot Camp? :-) But, I digress. The real question is if there is anything fundamental to Hapkido art that is lost by using a different teaching approach and what approach works optimally for what we know about learning now? Can we, for instance, drop the repetitive use of hyung for training in favor more modern boxing and wrestling drills? What about the Hapkido schools which report using no hyung at all? Instead of studying only one art, can we mandate that a person practice two or three to better understand different ways of using the body in combat, while keeping a particular art as their "major"? Are there training methods in various sports, both contact and non-contact, which can be introduced to develop a more well-rounded and effective preformance? Can the actual principles of neuro-muscular principles of Hapkido be defined and recorded, or is the process of learning Hapkido limited strictly to experiential events? If Hapkido, strictly speaking, is not a martial art because it is only found occasionally in the military and is not propagated BY the military, and it it is more of a Civil Art because it is more commonly used by and propagated in the community, should we then be moving more towards using teaching methods found in the community rather than those found in the military? I always have more questions then answers, but would enjoy hearing responses from anyone who wants to pitch-in. Thanks again, Rudy. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Piotr Bernat To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 18:26:48 +0200 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Kukkiwon textbook Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I haven't looked through it in as much detail as I'd like to (been > spending a lot more time on Hapkido, in prep for my test which I > managed to survive, somehow) but it is quite a reference. Expensive, > but pretty comprehensive. Anyone have this one? Comments? I`ve got two versions of the textbook - the big one in English and a smaller Korean version ("Taekwondo Kyobon"). The book itself is quite good, especially as a reference for patterns, names of the techniques etc. The part I don`t like at all are the self-defense techniques pictured, but it seems to be a common problem with many Taekwondo books. The videotapes are rather mediocre to say the least. The older set of Poomse videotapes published in Korea (I believe in late 80s or early 90s) were much better in my opinion. Anyway, as for Poomse, I suggest the videotapes by 4x European champion Kytu Dang for Denmark. The guy is awesome. The main problem is that I`m not sure if they are still available anywhere. Some companies in Germany and the Netherlands (Nikko Sports) were selling the tapes couple of years ago. Best regards -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Chris Hamilton EZ Lock" To: Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 13:51:47 -0500 Organization: EZ Lock Incorporated Subject: [The_Dojang] WTF manual Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> I also have this text book, and found it to be a good source for information, especially for the Korean TKD terminology. It is however not very good reading material, due to the fact that the translation is very awkward and hard to follow. So, it's in English, but not very good English. It does have a lot of pictures, and the accompanying tapes are very useful for learning the forms (my copy did include the palgwe forms, after taegeuk) Thanks, Chris H. Han Mu Do --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Laurie S." To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 15:31:54 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Black Lap/WTF manual Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ken wrote: <<<>>> Cute! Sorry to hear about your dog :o( But Missy seems to be a handful for ya. Anyways, I'm teaching my sheppard how to "spar". He's gettin really good. And boy can he punch! He'll stand up on his hind legs and WHAP! He'll punch ya in the tummy or the face. Very smart pooch LOL. Thomas wrote: <<<>>> Thanks for the info :o) <<<>>> Yes, please. I would like to hear oppions on it before I shell out 89.00. Thanks. Laurie TKD green belt (5th gup TSD) _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest