Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 03:28:44 -0500 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #346 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Australian Rank (J.R. West) 2. Australian Rank/Green Belt (Mario Karvouniaris) 3. Curriculum (Rudy Timmerman) 4. Re: General Choi Funeral Report (Creed71963@aol.com) 5. Age (Rudy Timmerman) 6. Beavers (Rudy Timmerman) 7. Muscle memory (Ray Terry) 8. Re: Belt Promotions in TKD (Laurie S.) 9. Re: Hwang Kee (JW) 10. Surprise picture (ABurrese@aol.com) 11. Looking for a Combination art studio in the Denver Colorado area (Michael Schulz) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "J.R. West" To: Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:20:22 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Australian Rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > In regards to Mr. Sims' email about Australian rank being reversed...that > may possibly be true in some cases...not sure. Knowing Bruce as well as I do, I'm fairly sure that his comment was "tongue in cheek", with reference to everything being bass-ackwards downunder in OZ. I laughed so hard that I almost fell off the buffet table. On another note, I was happy to receive Ray's registration form for the 17th International HapKiDo Seminar in Jackson, MS. I look forward to seeing him again, and maybe this time he won't miss the HapKiDo black belt class....J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:46:34 +1000 From: "Mario Karvouniaris" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Australian Rank/Green Belt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks Kim and others, We in Australia have funny names and spellings, The problem of belt progression is that some associations really do as they please, We moved recently and it was my son who wanted to continue training in a group environment (he is seven and currently graded a Green 5th gup) so I tried to enrol him in the local academy. I provided his grading card, and the instructor basically made out like it was Crap ie there is no such thing as a Green belt in TKD. This didn't do much for his confidence in the instructor / Art, I actually enouraged my boy to take up the sport as it is good for the mind and body. To cut a long story short I have decided to spend 1.5 hour a day travelling back to his original Tojo as this Green issue is big with most academies. So in essence I would like to thank all the people who responded to my question and just say this forum is outstanding in the assistance and information it provides Regards Mario --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 21:52:17 -0400 From: "Rudy Timmerman" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Curriculum Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce writes: > Dear Rudy: > > Thanks for taking the time to really examine what I was asking about. I'm > sorry it took a couple of days to get back to you, but it wasn't because I > was not thoroughly impressed with your approach. In fact, I can probably see > an opportunity for your first million by bottling and selling whatever got > you to be so balanced in your administrative approach. Hello Bruce: You're hired:) Anyway, sory for the long delay in getting back, but as you know I was away. > > The greatest fear that I hear people expressing is that somehow, in someway, > people will take the easy way out, the curriculum will change and the art > will be diluted. What I am hearing you say is that it is possible to be firm > about the content of a curriculum without being rigid about the way it is > presented or taught. That is the way I do it, but it might not be the way others want it. As I said in my last post, I have seen enough people who took the lower curriculum of a few arts to "create a new art". To me, there is not enough foundational difference in most of these "new" arts to warrant such claims. > The real question is if there is anything fundamental to Hapkido art that is > lost by using a different teaching approach and what approach works optimally > for what we know about learning now? As I see it, martial arts were created to serve the student, not the other way around. However, an art may have many benefits that take years of training to even notice. Therefore, we should not make changes to something we might not fully understand yet (and this is where many go astray). When I teach a technique to someone who might be better served doing it different, I also teach it the fundamental way. In this way, the original does not get lost, but the student also learns how to adapt it to serve him or her best. > Can we, for instance, drop the repetitive use of hyung for training in favor > more modern boxing and wrestling drills? What about the Hapkido schools which > report using no hyung at all? Bruce, I USE forms to get students to do repetitive things, because this is how muscle memory is developed. IMHO, this is one of the major benefits of using forms, they are simply sport specific exercises. In fact, I normally break a form down into segments and have a student learn each piece by doing it many times over. When I teach the next piece, they must also do the first one. In other words, they do the second piece 50 times, but they do the first piece a hundred times -- and so on. There are many faces to forms. Some are hard, some are soft, some are circular, some move all over the place, others may stand in one place, and still others may move in a straight line etc. In fact, when you practice techniques, you are doing two man forms. We certainly are not fighting. Even free sparring can thus be looked at as doing forms. Anyone who has ever been in a real fight can tell you that nothing we practice can compare to the real thing, therefore, anything we DO practice is just that -- practice. Some folks on the list, like Alain and myself, have had some experience in the real thing, and after 50 plus years of practicing martial arts I have not found a thing that remotely resembles it. All I get out of martial art training, in terms of preparing for a real fight, is that I get to be better at the kicks, punches, and other elements of the real thing. > Instead of studying only one art, can we mandate that a person practice two or > three to better understand different ways of using the body in combat, while > keeping a particular art as their "major"? I went back to College to study Biomechanics and Exercise Science because I found that I needed a better understanding of these things to teach martial arts to Westerners. Orientals, who developed martial arts we learn, lived from ground level, and this developed their leg muscles different. To teach Westerners these arts in the same way, resulted in lots of damage to knees. I adapted the training methods of the art I learned to avoid such injuries. In a way, we cannot avoid some evolution in the martial arts; at the same time, I tried to keep the technique as original as possible. > Are there training methods in various sports, both contact and non-contact, > which can be introduced to develop a more well-rounded and effective > performance? To become more well rounded, I actually encourage my students to look into other arts including boxing and wrestling; however, I also caution them not to "blend" anything else they learn to the point where the original gets too blurry. I never can tell them enough times to avoid becoming a Jack of all trades and a Master of none. It takes a lot of skill to avoid this. At the same time, it is important to know what your opponents might use, and how we can develop our own technique to defend against things we might otherwise never even see before it is too late. > Can the actual principles of neuro-muscular principles of Hapkido be defined > and recorded, or is the process of learning Hapkido limited strictly to > experiential events? Ofcourse, there is NOTHING like experiencing things to learn them better; but I believe that we CAN record and define these principles. However, I also believe that we must make some footnotes on possible variations that might be of more use in certain circumstances. > If Hapkido, strictly speaking, is not a martial art because it is > only found occasionally in the military and is not propagated BY the > military, and it it is more of a Civil Art because it is more commonly used > by and propagated in the community, should we then be moving more towards > using teaching methods found in the community rather than those found in the > military? I am not so sure that Hap Ki Do is not used by the military. Perhaps it is not taught as a complete art, but the techniques I have seen used in the Korean military look more like Hap Ki Do than Tae Kwon Do. In any case, I believe that the reference to "martial arts" dates back to times it might have been used more for that particular purpose. I can also see your point, and I myself use additional material that is more suited (or important) to teach to today's students. In other words, just because I teach a form of Hap Ki Do, I won't let that stand in my way to try and instill the many virtues that are so often advertised by schools. The only thing is that I don't do it because it is popular or profitable, I do it because I believe that I have a perfect "carrot" to get kids to do things they otherwise will never do. This sounds no doubt like a lot of bull to some people, but I DO get great satisfaction of seeing a bad kid turn around. I just won't compromise on the things I believe in. Looking into other concepts, such as boxing and other styles, I have often "found" these very concepts withing the art I learned and now teach. I simply was too close to the forest to see the trees. As soon as I noticed this, I became much more aaware of the vast amount of technique Hap Ki Do (in its various forms) really has to offer. Stay in it long enough, and low and behold you'll find you don't need to create another style or look for greener pastures. That is when I truly became comfortable in my training:) Sorry for the length of this answer, but Bruce does ask a lot in one email:) Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:04:52 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: General Choi Funeral Report Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>Message: 14 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:03:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] General Choi Funeral Report Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net More from www.itf-generalchoi.com... General Choi Funeral Report<< On a personal note, I am not comfortable with the ITF being supported by the North Koreans. To me, there is a feeling of propaganda in the above Funeral report, as if the North Koreans are trying to score points off General Choi's death. Is it the American in me reacting to a group that is still officially at war with us? (There never was a peace agreement to end the Korean War -- just an agreement to stop the war.) Or is there something there? I'm not questioning the General's honor, as I believe that he had the best intentions for TKD. But I not as certain about some of the ITF backers. Am I imagining something that isn't there? Any opinions? Craig --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 21:57:11 -0400 From: "Rudy Timmerman" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Age Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray writes: > At that rate Masters West and Timmerman would be, ahh, ummm, sorry, I can't > count that high... Hi Ray. I know JR is old, but I'm still young (at heart:) Rudy --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:07:38 -0400 From: "Rudy Timmerman" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Beavers Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Michael writes: > Hey what do my fine brothers up in Canada do on 4th of July? Do you folks > celebrate like us or with us? Do you folks blow up fireworks? Or do you > folks just find some beavers and blow them up? Ha, I bet Rudy has done that > more than once!! Sorry Michael, my experience with "Beavers" is rather limited, especially lately. This may be because JR and Ray keep telling folks that I am old:) Other than that, we do the 1st of July thing pretty much the same way you do, albeit to a lesser degree. Where I live (on the border of the US), we often do it (the fireworks) in conjuction with the US city. Rudy --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:20:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Muscle memory Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Bruce, I USE forms to get students to do repetitive things, because this is > how muscle memory is developed. IMHO, this is one of the major benefits of > using forms, they are simply sport specific exercises. In fact, I normally > break a form down into segments and have a student learn each piece by doing > it many times over. When I teach the next piece, they must also do the > first one. In other words, they do the second piece 50 times, but they do > the first piece a hundred times -- and so on. Wax on, wax off... (Karate Kid) For the most part a goofy movie, but that concept is (imho) priceless. Now the real trick is in getting your students to wax your car... :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Laurie S." To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 23:13:53 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Belt Promotions in TKD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Me: <<<>>> Piotr Bernat wrote: <<<>>> Yes, that's correct (for my dojang anyways). I am a 8th gup green belt. Normally, for my area, most TKD schools only have 8 or 9 gups. But in my dojang, we do two extra froms (after the 8 taeguk). We learn a little bit of kung fu also, so those two forms are Shaolin forms (I can't remember the names off hand). Laurie green belt TKD (5th gup TSD) _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:50:11 -0700 From: JW To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Hwang Kee Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Although my information is second hand and antedotal -I believe that your opinion is incorrect. My original Sa Ba Nim was one of Hwang Kee's original students(within his first fifty black belts). He had told me that the name change was to distinguish the art as a Korean art as opposed to being 'the hand of the Tang dynasty'. Respectfully, Joel S. Weissler Niya Moon wrote: > >My take on it is that it was primarily so that he could claim the name >Soo Bahk Do for himself and the MDK. Tang Soo Do is generic term that he >adopted from the Chung Do Kwan. > > >Ray you're correct. I believe GM Hwang Kee at one time wanted to copyright >or protect the use of MDKTSD, but was unsuccessful. I believe he was >successful with MDKSBD. > >What he changed/added is Chil Sung and Yuk Rho Hyungs. > >May he rest in peace, > >Charles Richards >www.geocities.com/mojakwan >_______________________________________________ >The_Dojang mailing list >The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 10 From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 00:11:33 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Surprise picture Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net There's a new magazine out right now on Women's Self-Defense, put out by Black Belt magazine. I was looking through it at the store and was surprised to see a picture of me in there. If you take a look at the mag, look on page 62. You'll see me and my instructor Lee Jun-kyu in the school at Kangnung, Korea. Speaking of, I'm off to CO this Friday to be part of a demo and seminar. Others there will include Peyton Quinn, Marc MacYoung, Bob Orlando, Steve Plinck, and others. We'll be doing a demo on Friday night, and then teaching classes during the weekend. Then on Sunday it is off to Korea for two weeks! Looking forward to training, visiting and eating. :-) I hope to post pics and info on the trip to my web page when I get back. Yours in Training, Alain Burrese www.burrese.com . --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Michael Schulz" To: Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:28:36 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Looking for a Combination art studio in the Denver Colorado area Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi folks! I moved to Denver (specifically Parker) not long ago and am currently looking for a martial arts studio. Previously, in Dallas, I was practicing an art called Moon Moo Do which is essentially a variant on Kuk Sool. I enjoyed the combination nature of the art (a mix of TKD, Hapkido, Shaolin Kung Fu, Tai Chi, Judo, and Moon Moo Sul), and would like to find something similar to it in the Denver area. Anyone have any suggestions? They would be appreciated! Please email me directly at mike@schulz.net. Thanks! Mike --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! 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