Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 03:31:40 -0500 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #347 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Rudys' "interview" (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 2. Aussie Ranks (Farral, Kim) 3. New arts (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 4. World Cup Winners So Far! (fwd) (Ray Terry) 5. Need for Affiliation (Will Wayland) 6. Trip (Rudy Timmerman) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 07:33:56 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Rudys' "interview" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Rudy: A very sincere and heartfelt "thank you" for taking time to respond in such detail. You can't imagine how much I wish that we in the KMA community to get other exceptional teachers to take time out in a public forum to just talk about how they see things coming together. That was a great post. Thanks again. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Farral, Kim" To: 'DoJang Digest' Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 08:50:13 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Aussie Ranks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. West... Pil Seung Yes... I gathered that was a "tongue in cheek" statement...am very familiar with the OZ sense of humour (note the U in humour) ...but with all the schools deciding on their own belt colours (note the u again) and ranks...just thought I would play it safe... BTW: I do have a map that shows Oz at the top of the world...everything is upside down when you look at it except for the printing...confuses everyone except the Aussies... Pil Seung! K. G. Farral Staff Mechanical Engineer ITT Industries 7310 Innovation Blvd. P.O. Box 731 Ft. Wayne, Indiana 46801-0731 Ph: (219) 451-5312 Fax: (219) 451-5476 kim.farral@itt.com ************************************ If this email is not intended for you, or you are not responsible for the delivery of this message to the addressee, please note that this message may contain ITT Privileged/Proprietary Information. In such a case, you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. You should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Information contained in this message that does not relate to the business of ITT is neither endorsed by nor attributable to ITT. ************************************ [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef] --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:21:30 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] New arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rudy and Bruce were talking about new arts and the "dilution" of hapkido. Since I now call what I do "American Combative Science," I somewhat resemble that remark, and thought I would jump into the fray. Bruce wrote: > > The greatest fear that I hear people expressing is that somehow, in someway, > > people will take the easy way out, the curriculum will change and the art > > will be diluted. By dilution, I take it that Bruce means "easier" or "safer," which also means the commercialization of an art and more students. Personally I think there are a lot better ways to make a living than in teaching the martial arts, if only because it means you don't have to compromise your art in any way. I'm all for safety (I'm a Red Cross instructor too) but I don't think anything of worth is ever easy. Must be my Protestant work-worth ethic kicking in. Rudy wrote: >As I > said in my last post, I have seen enough people who took the lower > curriculum of a few arts to "create a new art". To me, there is not enough > foundational difference in most of these "new" arts to warrant such claims. This has two aspects: 1. Lower curriculum of a few arts: In other words, the people have broadened the range of their techniques. Personally I think this is a good thing if you are training to actually fight. If they pick the "lower curriculum" they are picking the basics, which is a good start, but I'd prefer to see them pick up the "higher practices" of the arts for better effect. That means, get into randori and push hands and sticky hands and sparring and jointlock flows as early as you can, rather than simply practice basic techniques for the first two years. The only problem is that the instructor-student ratio has to be higher to preserve safety, but that is really not a big problem, since most students want the easy stuff anyways. 2. A new art has to be justified by technique: For me the decision to help create ACS was not based on technique. We have refined some of the things we used to do, added a couple and done away with a few, but that is normal progression of an art. We changed from hapkido because hapkido is just too full of squabbles (I can hear flamethrowers clicking on at this point!). There are people who say that hapkido is only what GM Choi, or only what Takeda did, and fight over good technique. I think good technique speaks for itself. If people can't see it, then they don't have to do it. Simple. Doing hapkido also means I would have to justify my existence. I was initially trained in USHF hapkido, and then in Kongshin Hapkido. USHF was derived from Don Burns, who learned from Ki-Duk Lee, who learned from Han-Jae Ji. Kongshin was derived from Will Widmeyer, who learned from Inn-Sheuk Pak. This created all sorts of problems as to loyalties and where the dues would go, and why I was learned from white guys and not Koreans who of course invented the art 2000 years ago and didn't I know that the Japanese and Chinese stole everything from the Koreans and I can only learn from one instructor and must never change a thing because it is 2000 years old after all and who was I to question the master or how much he was charging, etc. etc. You folks know what I'm talking about. Calling it ACS meant I could just practice and do what I wanted to do, rather than get caught up in all the politics. Rudy wrote: > As I see it, martial arts were created to serve the student, not the other > way around. Yay! > However, an art may have many benefits that take years of > training to even notice. Therefore, we should not make changes to something > we might not fully understand yet (and this is where many go astray). Oh oh. Here Rudy brings up the point of tradition and conservatism in technique. To me, this is kind of weird, since GM Pak was a pretty innovative guy. He stole from everybody and made it clear that he stole only the good stuff. That is to say, I agree with Rudy in part. I too have seen idiots with a few years experience start a whole new art without any idea of what they're doing. That's dumb. But when you reach a point where there isn't anyone around to learn from, you are forced to learn on your own. For example, I practice baguazhang and iaido, and in both cases I do what my instructors tell me, so I can learn what they do. In ACS, I listen to my instructor (Will) as well, but I also pay attention to every technique and watch for its strengths and weaknesses and learn about applying them in different ways. Bruce says: > > Can we, for instance, drop the repetitive use of hyung for training in favor > > more modern boxing and wrestling drills? Here I agree with Bruce completely. And I speak as a 4th dan in tkd as well, so I'm not a stranger to forms. Rudy says: > Bruce, I USE forms to get students to do repetitive things, because this is > how muscle memory is developed. Yes, but.... the problem is those instinctive responses are being developed without the feedback of another person (as in drills). > Anyone who has ever been in a real fight can tell you that nothing we > practice can compare to the real thing, therefore, anything we DO practice > is just that -- practice. But we can practice as close as possible, can't we? Gotta go for now, maybe I'll write more later. Take care, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang), policedo@martialartsresource.net (Policedo) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] World Cup Winners So Far! (fwd) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: "USTU Webmaster" World Cup Winners so far! After three days of competition, the US has earned 5 medals at the World Cup Championships being held this week in Japan. So far: Mandy Meloon - Silver Diana Lopez - Bronze Peter Lopez - Bronze Simona Hradil - Bronze Steven Lopez - Bronze Congratulations to all our winners! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- US Taekwondo Union One Olympic Plaza Suite 104C Colorado Springs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Will Wayland" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Need for Affiliation Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 20:58:51 +0100 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Recently ive come across many headaches concerning my practice of an independant Kwan taekwondo style (Hwan Hazuki also know as ZhangGaoLao do) some instructors refuse too acknowledge my BB although i display the the knowledge and skill of any good WTF, ITF practicioners. Ive put in my hard work, so why deny me what i have earned just because what ive been taught isnt "official." It these instructors that refuse to see beyond their "style" that are restricting the growth of new ideas in tkd, although that does'nt mean i think all instructors are like this.Is what im practicing an art by any other name because it isnt official? just some food for thought. (Plus im now learning WTf forms) My question is should i unlearn my current unrecognised style and start sticking too learning WTf or ITF? Also Id just like too thank those who gave me advice on sparring with Taller/heavier opponents. I applied the advice given, and i quickly defeated my opponent with defensive side kicks and countering spinning quicks. I now feel much more confident using taekwondo against Karateka. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:17:58 -0400 From: "Rudy Timmerman" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Trip Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Alain writes: > This was great timing, since we'll be heading over to Korea in less than two weeks. Have a great trip Alain. Be safe! Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest