Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 03:26:12 -0500 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #348 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Belt Promotions in TKD and Haidong Gumdo World Championships and trip to Korea (castrovicente) 2. KMA Thoughts (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 3. RE: Diluting Hapkido (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 4. Leg muscles & knee damage (Don Frick) 5. Re: New arts (Richard Zaruba) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "castrovicente" To: Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:26:04 +0200 Subject: [The_Dojang] Belt Promotions in TKD and Haidong Gumdo World Championships and trip to Korea Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello, I have written some e-mails years ago, then I think I must present myself again. Me and my brother (twins) we are from Spain and we are both TKD 3rd Dan Black Belt and now we are also 7th gup in Haidong Gumdo, we began practising it seven months ago Here, the coloured belt system is different from the other you mentioned. We have white, yellow, orange, green, blue, brown and black, and for children, white, white-yellow, yellow, yellow-orange, orange, etc. I think that this system is the same than in Judo. About other things, from the next 22th of July to the 25th of July there will be the 2002 Haidong Gumdo World Championships in the Kangwon province in Korea, at the Yongpyung Dome, and we'll go there to compete and for tourism, we'll be accompanied by our master in TKD and HDGD Grandmster Lee Dong Kyu, and also (but less time) with the "technical director" for Europe of the World HDGD Federation Master Han Sang Hyun). This will be the first time that we'll go to Korea, and it is very special for us, because we celebrate this year our 20th year practising taekwondo... Will go there any people of the dojang digest? If you go and you see there us (we are twins and from Spain) please greet to us. Any suggestions about our visit to Korea? I hope that now that I began sending e-mails to the list that I'll begin send some mails more in the future... And nothing else, only I have to say that I really enjoy the list because it is very useful and with a very good relationship .... Felix Castro --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 09:41:25 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] KMA Thoughts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Dakin: "......2. A new art has to be justified by technique: For me the decision to help create ACS was not based on technique. We have refined some of the things we used to do, added a couple and done away with a few, but that is normal progression of an art. We changed from hapkido because hapkido is just too full of squabbles (I can hear flamethrowers clicking on at this point!). There are people who say that hapkido is only what GM Choi, or only what Takeda did, and fight over good technique. I think good technique speaks for itself. ....." I know this is going to come down to hair-splitting for some people, Dakin, but you raise some important points that really need to be talked about. For my self, I am not sure that "..A new art has to be justified by technique..." I know that Hapkido arts can be defined by what is practical and untilitarian, I just don't think the whole art is contained in this approach and I am not sure that the art is well served by using this approach to define it. Wouldn't this be a lot like saying that "TKD is a martial sport rather than a martial art". I mean, I know an arguement can be made for this, but does it really do justice to those folks who at least practice TKD with the INTENT of following it as a Martial art rather than a sport? For me, the Hapkido arts are something that I CAN do on a mat, but its principles are concepts that I can likewise use OFF the mat. There are quite a few people I have met who state that they practice Hapkido and I can tell you that they are not the kind of people I would want to have anything to do with other than in training. On the other hand I know a lot of folks in Hapkido whose physical technique is not all it should be but they have found ways to use concepts such as The Water Principle and Point-&-Circle Principle in their everyday interaction with people and are the sorts of people a person really wants to be around. Now, I think the reason I am taking time to relate all this is because of what you said about squabbles in Hapkido. If I can draw a parallel from Nature, let me say that the most turbulent wave action is found where the sea is shallow along a shoreline. I know what you are saying about squabbles, but I have never heard any intense, deep-seated discussions about martial valor, teaching techniques or progressive development of the art causing rifts. What I have heard squabbles about are things like who gets credit or recognition, which way is the money flowing and whose material more authentically reflects KMA. I am not aware of a lot of organizational splits because of differences of opinion regarding head kicks versus low-kicks, how a throw is done or to practice/not practice hyung. I am aware of a whole lot of break-ups because rank could be had faster someplace else, somebody wanted to be the exclusive authority to whom all others answer, or maybe two people just got tired of standing in each others shadow. Let me also say that I think that we KMA practitioners are getting to a place in our lives where we don't automatically buy into a lot of this squabbling crap when it becomes apparent its nothing more than a sandbox spat between two spoiled or egotistical GM. However, my concern is that with so much distraction caused by these high-profile splits (like the recent ITF thing) progression and improvement in Hapkido gets sidelined. Finally, regarding what you mentioned about hyung practice I still come down on the side of Hyung practice as both a training device and a medium for identifying, teaching and cataloging the biomechanics of the art. Personally, I think OS Miyagi did MA a disservice when he started the whole idea of "bunkai" in kata practice for Karate. Ever since, people have been trying to identify specific techniques for each and every movement in Hyung and I think this is a mistake. I believe that if people trained the body by ingraining certain ways of moving and acting from various postures and saved the applications to be kept in some sort of personal "examples file" I would bet that they would naturally produce the kind of combat spontaneity you are speaking of, Dakin. I see this all the time in sword practice where culture and law forbid the actual attacking of humans and animals with a live blade to see if a particular technique would actually work in combat. We do hyung over and over to get the feel for how the body moves under various conditions, and (sometimes) then fantasize about how such a move might be used practically. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 08:01:19 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Diluting Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Dakin: "......By dilution, I take it that Bruce means "easier" or "safer," which also > means the commercialization of an art and more students.... > Sorta, but not quite. If dilution of Hapkido was simply a matter of making things easier or safer, you would get little arguement from me. At its core Hapkido is not an easy or completely safe art to learn. There are risks. If someone can find a way to reduce the difficulty or risk in learning Hapkido, noone should be better pleased than I. What I was actually focusing on in my post was the idea that in an effort to make things easier or safer, people take some pretty strange roads. One road is NOT to actually learn Hapkido (the art) and instead just learn a bunch of disparate Hapkido techniques. I think this is what happens at a lot of TKD schools which report that they "also teach Hapkido". Another road is to tie into a teacher who simply does not know as much as he reports he knows and consequently can only take a person just so far and no farther. As you pointed out in your post, now that person is faced with the difficulty of where to go to take their art to the next level of development. Yet another road is to bounce from art to art snatching bits from a variety of sources and representing it all as a cohesive whole under the banner of "Hapkido". This is where a practitioner tries to solve his quandry with a sort of DIY approach. When I mentioned making things "easier" or "safer" I was thinking more in terms of those folks who are not working to identify a better teaching approach, but who substitute one of the experiences I have mentioned above FOR improved teaching methods. In my own case, I don't make any secret of the fact that I will train with a variety of folks with a broad range of interpretation regarding the Hapkido arts. On one hand there is M. West and his yearly events. Then there are M. Ma, M. Timmerman, M. Seo, and of course M. Ji. In my own personal study I am not above attending seminars with folks who practice a wide range of arts. What I DON'T do is take things from outside of Hapkido and bring it into my classes to be represented as Hapkido just because its "popular" or maybe easier to teach or less risky. Hapkido arts are Hapkido art whether from the Chinese or Japanese side of the house. I don't stir-in Judo, Aikido, Escrima and so forth and call it "Hapkido" even if it IS easier to find more teachers and material on these arts than on authentic Hapkido. This is what I was identifying when I mentioned dilution. One other thing before I close out. I think you hit a VERY important issue, Dakin, when you mentioned that in Hapkido arts people often hit a point where there are no teachers available to take the practitioner to the next level. I, personally, have seen this over and over again. Many teachers are expert on the basics and that makes for good exercise and good self-defense. A lot of teachers do seminars and that makes for good cash flow and public relations. But start asking technical questions about execution, or wondering out-loud if there are opportunities specific to instructor training and conversations sort of dry-up. I have always heard the explanation that GM So&So will provide the information when he thinks one is ready. I am putting my money on the idea that GM So&So does not teach such things because he simply does not have that level of sophistication in his understanding of what he is doing, and that even if he does he is not accomplished enough as a teacher to share it effectively. If I had to identify one weak spot in the Hapkido Arts for their successful transmission, I would put my focus here. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Don Frick" To: Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 17:24:05 +0200 Subject: [The_Dojang] Leg muscles & knee damage Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rudy wrote: > I went back to College to study Biomechanics and Exercise Science because > I found that I needed a better understanding of these things to teach martial > arts to Westerners. Orientals, who developed martial arts we learn, lived > from ground level, and this developed their leg muscles different. To teach > Westerners these arts in the same way, resulted in lots of damage to knees. > > I adapted the training methods of the art I learned to avoid such injuries. > In a way, we cannot avoid some evolution in the martial arts; at the same > time, I tried to keep the technique as original as possible. Not to impose on you, but could you (or anyone else who happens to know) elaborate on this a bit? I've noticed that Koreans (even the ones living here in Switzerland) are flexible in other ways than Europeans, which probably comes from a habit of sitting in a cross legged position <-- armchair biomechanics specialist ;) What are their other habits that result in a different development of leg muscles? How would that affect knee damage? And finally, are there any habits that might be worth adopting, in order to help our poor knees? Just curious, Don --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:50:04 -0500 Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] New arts From: Richard Zaruba To: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey Everyone, I'm going to chime in here with a few points that seem to be missed by the discussion. I too train in forms and what many people view as a "higher" level curriculum. I use higher in quotations because I understand a couple of things that someone without a good instructor seems to miss about forms, drills, techniques and so forth. First forms are able to teach good biomechanics in movement as well as timing and rhythm. Try to execute a joint-lock, takedown or throw with poor biomechanics and you will probably end up flat on your butt. Same goes for strikes and kicks, you end up overextending and opening yourself to a number of counters. Forms help alleviate these problems when properly employed. I'm not saying form are the same as fighting simply an important drill that should not be discounted out of ignorance and/or misunderstanding. The techniques taught in the underbelt curriculum of my style (Kuk Sool Won) may seem like 231 separate techniques but this is only the case if you don't understand how the curriculum is designed and arranged to promote a thorough understanding of how to use a small number of key joint-locks and throws from different positions and situations. The idea is to master a small number of key techniques and then employ them from a variety of situations. Using this type of curriculum supplemented with basic ground grappling, progressive training in sparring (this includes the eventual inclusion of all throws, chokes, grappling ect. As well as strikes and kicks), and adrenaline based self defense drills against one or more assailants and you have a very powerful and effective system that develops excellent muscle memory for actual self defense as well as providing all of the fitness benefits that are also desired by a number of my students. I think and experience by myself and my students has shown this method and sequence of training to be an effective. I don't think we don't really need any new arts, just a better understanding of what is being done, how it applies to today, and how to properly train in our chosen style to make it effective. Sorry for the long post and now I'll go back to lurking. Richard Zaruba ____________________________________________________________________________ "Large egos are carried by small minds." Anon. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest