Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 18:45:41 -0500 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #352 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Cross-ranking (Ray Terry) 2. Sip Pal Ki (Roberto Facundo Memoli) 3. Kickers and Runners (Jeremy) 4. KMAIA Revisited (d.mchenry) 5. KMAIA (michael tomlinson) 6. Great Seminar (Patrick L) 7. Learning Korean (Kent Frazier) 8. The Straight Skinny on KMAIA (Gary Pointer) 9. Gary Pointer & KMAIA: A Web Quest (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 10. RE: Bunkai Stuff (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 09:13:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Cross-ranking Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Gary goes on to state: > This organization has been the catalyst for traditional instructors who > are probably traditional taekwondoist and they recieve cross-training and > ranking in let's say hapkido or yudo. Now I realize that you are deeply involved with this KMAIA organization as a "Grandmaster Gary Pointer" is listed as a KMAIA Board Member, as the chairman of the Membership committee as well as the National Hapkido Rep. But do you, or does anyone out there, think that the concept of cross-ranking is a good idea? imho, sounds like just another way to buy rank. Or perhaps this goes back to another KMAIA claim that "the only" way to a attain KMA Grandmaster status is to be a full Master in three, count'em three !!, Korean martial arts. Ummm.... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 11:40:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Roberto Facundo Memoli To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Sip Pal Ki Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello, does anybody know where can I find resources (online res., books, articles, etc) about Sip Pal ki (Ship Pal Ki, Si Pal Ki,..)? I am interested in learning some more about its history, different styles, etc. I am also interested in finding out dojangs where that martial art is taught. Thanks! R. F. Memoli --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Jeremy" To: Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 11:36:16 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Kickers and Runners Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have heard it proposed that kickers can't run and runners can't kick. This is supposedly because doing one develops muscles in a way contrary to the other. Is there any truth to this? Does anybody know about the physiology involved? Has anyone experienced such a phenomena? Jeremy --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 11:48:46 -0500 From: "d.mchenry" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] KMAIA Revisited Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Is the KMAIA the organization that Hackworth is associated with? Yup, caveat emptor. Mac ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the EV1 webmail system at mail.ev1.net --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 16:55:34 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] KMAIA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Pointer, It is real simple, please post on the Dojang Digest the list of addresses, names of instructors, phone numbers, and any other information we would need to contact the Korean leaders of this KMAIA. If you do that anyone and everyone can verify the legitimacy for themselves. If this organization exists in Korea then it should be public knowledge. Personally I have no opinion either way but this is the proper way to take care of the mix up. No one needs any information of the American branches involved just the contacts in South Korea,,, Can you do that for us? If you can then I am sure this riddle can be solved very easily. How about it? Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Patrick L" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 11:26:52 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Great Seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just want to mention that the Jang Mu Won seminar held in Monrovia, CA July 5,6,7 was a great success. Please consider it for your schedules next year. Thank You, Patrick _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Kent Frazier" To: "The Dojang Digest" Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 13:41:17 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Learning Korean Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Digesters, (heh, didn't sound as good once it was written down) My friend Nathan and I have been trying to learn at least some (at the very least rudimentary) Korean, partly to aid our journey in the KMA, and partly because we are both just lovers of all things language (and Hangul is just so freaking neat :) .) Anyway, we have run into a few small problems. First and foremost, we have not been able to find a really good Korean-English dictionary. I bought the Langenscheidt's Korean-English-Korean dictionary, and it is helpful, but it does not have a lot of words that I would like to know the meaning of. Nathan bought the New English-Korean Conversation Dictionary, by M.E. Song, which is nice because it contains a grammar in addition to an English-Korean dictionary. It does not, however, have a Korean-English section at all. I was wondering if any of you out there have found any good books on Korean grammar, Korean-English-Korean dictionaries that go both ways, preferably with Romanized Hangul, although not absolutely necessary, or informative and useful websites. Thanks, and I hope to hear from you soon, Kent Frazier 8th Gup Traditional Taekwondo Chung Do Kwan --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 11:43:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Pointer To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] The Straight Skinny on KMAIA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray, The statement that all LEGITIMATE traditional Korean martial arts instructors and dojang operators are members of the KMAIA is true. The definitive word here is ...Legitimate. If others are teaching and this may be so, they are not legitimately recognized or authorized to teach or claim to teach traditional methods in a standard authorized cirriculum. We see this consistantly in this country. What I'm saying is that maybe your sources can't find legitimate traditional martial arts instructors in South Korea, because if they did then they would have made the connection with the KMAIA. The KMAIA has ties not only with the known high dan ranking instructors, but has a close relationship within the South Korean government itself. Again, this organization is willing to offer not only membership to those outside of the Republic of Korea with genuine traditional training as it is done in the ROK and the opportunity to receive authentic Korean credentials. I know that everyone claims that they are legit, especially here in the good 'ol United States of America, but the knowledge base of most master here in this country is limited and shallow. The martial arts journey is a life-long journey, therefore there is more out there to learn, especially from its source, the Motherland. Yes, Ray, I will keep my membership, loyalty and trust to the KMAIA and its affiliations because I know it is the real deal :-) We're here to offer and expose the truth regarding legimate traditional martial arts to this part of the world. This situation has not been available since the Korean invasion of the early 1960s and 70s. It seems that the "Ugly American" syndrome is also alive and well in the martial arts community. BTW, Hal why are you climbing on the band wagon? Legitimate members of the Korea Hapkido Federation (KHF) are members of the KMAIA. You've recently made claims of your association to the KHF. Prior to that time, you were an individual who claimed that the South Korean hapkido authorities (KHA) granted you the privledge to have your own kwan. How does one, who for so many years, go from being an independent organization alledgedly sanctioned by the Koreans, to now make the claim that you are a member of an organization that you and your followers have dissed throughout those years? Huh, just doesn't make sense to me? If I had been granted that type of recognition and responsibility by the powers-that-be, then I would certainly stay the course and be what I am (or claimed to be). That's the problem nowadays, no one is consistant (who or what they claim to be). I'm washing my hands of this (unless I'm forced to respond). The truth to the claims made by the KMAIA are legitimate (despite what you may think). The research done wasn't extensive nor exaustive. Again, this should be a life long search, especially if you really desire to know the truth. Maybe some people wouldn't know the truth if it slapped them upside the head. Don't say that the truth wasn't offered to you. Where's the "never quit" attitude? 'Nuff said, the truth has been provided and you have the choice to either accept it or reject it. Have a good day all and Pil Sung! Gary Pointer Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 13:54:17 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Gary Pointer & KMAIA: A Web Quest Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Gary Pointer's post flicked up a couple red flags for me. Ray's original post seemed too innocuous to have generated the irate post by Gary. So I went digging.... Gary is listed as a member of the Board of Directors of the National Hapkido Association, whose headquarters is in: PO Box 580 Apopka, FL 32704-5800 USA You can find their website at: http://www.nhahapkido.com/home.html They have nice photos of Oh Se-Lim and Yong Ki-Song there. Those of you teaching hapkido will be a little chagrined to find the following statement there: "To all students of Hapkido, I caution you. Please beware of our impersonators. All officially certified Korea Hapkido Federation affiliate schools are listed on our website. If an instructor is not listed here, you can be sure he is an imposter" Gary Pointer is the National Director. Robert Odell is the Membership Director. Ralph Moore is the Dan Director. There are other names there, including Dr. Julian Lim (Malaysia), Gerardo Nunez (Colombia), and Michael Barron (England). The Board of Directors includes: Gregory Glover Richard Hackworth Gregory Lee Ralph Moore Joseph Connolly Frank Clay Fred Soto A school directory for the NHA includes several other people, including Alain Burrese. It also mentions that Michelle Yeoh, Sammo Hung, and Jackie Chan all studied hapkido, which I suppose is good marketing, but is fairly misleading. You can see the listing at: http://www.nhahapkido.com/schools.htm At least half of their events are seminars by Richard Hackworth, as listed at: http://www.nhahapkido.com/calendar.htm The NHA is associated with several other organizations, including Chungtonkwan Yudo. This is a somewhat mysterious organization, whose web page at: http://www.chungtongkwan.com/ doesn't say much. The founding grandmaster was Joseph F. Connolly II, whose biography can be seen at: http://www.mararts.org/Biography/connolly/connolly.htm at the U.S. Martial Arts Association run by Phil Porter. The chungtongkwan page touts a Korean background but was designed by Guppie Designs, based in Florida, whose web page at: http://www.guppiedesigns.com/Designs.htm lists two other clients in the martial arts including the Institute of Military Arts at: http://www.instituteofmilitaryarts.com/ Their opening graphic is actually a nice simple bit of graphic design. I like it! Not much information there, except that they are interested in hapkido. The other page is for the International Yudo Federation at: http://www.yudofederation.com/ This page is almost identical to the chungtonkwan page, and gives the HQ of the IYF to be: International Yudo Federation(tm) P O Box 620395 Orlando, FL 32862-0395 USA All three pages are obviously linked. They also avoid mentioning any names of instructors or leaders (although you can find these with a bit of digging) and they don't list any techniques either. They just seem to be pages designed to gather money via the web. For example, you can order your rank in Yudo through the IYF by doing the following: "Download the Request for Rank Certificate form from this website. Submit it to the mailing address shown on the form, with the necessary documentation (if any), and the required fee. The fee for a rank certificate from the International Yudo Federations(tm) is $100.00USD per grade, i.e. $100.00 for 1st Dan, $200.00 for 2nd Dan, $300.00 for 3rd Dan, etc. After the initial rank certificate is issued, all future rank certificates must be issued in the proper sequence. The certificate remains the property of International Yudo Federations(tm). If you engage in any actions to dishonor yourself or to bring disrepute to the military arts, International Yudo Federations(tm) reserves the right to demand the return of your rank certificate." These instructions come from the page at: http://www.yudofederation.com/obtainrankinternationalyudofederation.htm After getting all that background information, I then went looking for the KMAIA itself. You can find it at: http://www.kmaia-usa.org/ The school directory lists much the same people as the NHA and Grandmaster Richard Hackworth is the US Representative. Lee Kyong-Ok is the International Director. The contact address is at: KOREAN MARTIAL ARTS INSTRUCTORS ASSOCIATION 475 W. Silver Star Rd., Ocoee, FL 34761 USA Ph: 407-654-0555 Fax: 407-654-4661 E-mail: drhackworth@earthlink.net Their "News" page lists the following organizations as "Member Organizations": Korea Taekwondo Association Korea Hapkido Federation Korea KyukTookKi Federation Korea TangSooDo MuDukKwan Society Korea SipPalGi Association Korea BongSool Association Korea ShimKiDo Association R.O.K. Yudo Organization Korea Kumdo Federation Korea MooDo Association Korea ChiMuKwan Association Korean Healing Arts Instatute Korea SooRim Federation Korean Ki Society National Hapkido Association Korea KumMuSool Federation Korea TaeKyun Association Korea Sirrum Association Korea SimMooDo Association There is also an intriguing article by Joseph F. Connolly II at: http://www.kmaia-usa.org/resources/articles/certification.htm with the title of "The Real Value of Certification: Why all certification is not the same." Connolly lists the following degrees behind his name: "B.A., LL.B., J.D., F.S.M.A." Frankly, it is a little weird that he would list both his B.A. and his J.D. (Doctorate of Jurisprudence). I've got to wonder where he got the latter degree. Anyhow, he says the following about a Kukkiwon certificate: The sport taekwondo certificate is a valid certificate, issued by competent authority, but it has no relevance whatsoever to the traditional Korean martial arts. It might as well be a certificate in horsemanship or field archery. At the end he writes: The Institute for Martial Arts Education is working with the Korean Martial Arts Instructors Association and the national organizations for the traditional Korean martial arts of Yudo, Hapkido, and Taekwondo in the United States, to develop certification programs in these arts which meet the existing national educational standards, and which will meet and exceed the instructional and education components of any future legislative mandates on martial arts licensing. To my knowledge, this is the only program offering certification in the traditional Korean martial arts officially recognized both in the United States and in the Republic of Korea. I think Ray was probably too close to the target when he wrote "caveat emptor." Maybe that's why Gary was hot under the collar. I hope he realizes that this is just part of life as "the specimen under the microscope" that he writes about in his article entitled, "Leading by Example: Walking the Talk" at: http://www.kmaia-usa.org/resources/articles/example.htm By the way, Gary lists "our foremost problem" there as "hypocrisy in action." Interesting. He adds: "To be a serious martial arts practitioner and not just a businessman this special requirement is a must. Authentic credentials certificates and licenses also illustrate claims of legitimacy. All rank, licenses and certificates should be posted for all to see. They should be issued from a legitimate affiliation source for accountability purposes and authentic validation (i.e., signed by a grandmaster). Years of teaching experience, lineage of instruction and a history of that claim in a time tested certification process including photos could help back up what is claimed. Affiliations with a legitimate organization, federation or union assists with the notion that accountability to someone is foremost." He also says: "The problem with this is that the fakes seem to not only have the admiration of the general public, but has also infiltrated our ranks effectively enough to pass themselves off as legitimate martial artists. They have produced a public relations machine based on claims, assertions, hearsay, innuendo, lies and perception (of smoke and mirrors). These individuals have talked the talk and they do it so skillfully like 'snot on a door knob'. Their strength is in the 'visible' wind hole and 'stench' coming out of it, especially when they've been exposed in some form or fashion. They say lies, believe lies and live lies. This entire charade is built on dung with dung. These people are artists all right, but not martial artists. Can you smell it...them?" Really folks, I was a bit incredulous to find this article on the KMAIA site. Sorry, but I really think I can smell something. I think everyone might want to save this post and stick it in their files. Sooner or later you might be talking to someone from this organization and need to remember this stuff. Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of image001.gif] --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 13:00:35 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Bunkai Stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Landa: ".......I think I read a post about you not supporting 'bunkai', am I correct? Could you elaborate? Bunkai is guuuuud...." Hhhhmmm. I am not sure that "not supporting" is the best way to say it. How about something closer to "having my suspicions about"? I understand the concept of providing or suggesting an application for a movement. After all we humans like to know that we are not doing something for just no good reason, right? Where I get concerned is those situations where a teacher stops saying things like "heres something you could use this movement for" and starts stating unequivacably "this movement is this." From there its a short hop to "every movement is for this-- or that". Take another little hop and things start getting fanciful with statements like "I know you have heard that this movement was a punch but actually its a meridian manipulation that makes your opponent do this or that." If you do some reading about various aspects of Okinawan traditions you find out that what we know as Okinawa-te or To-De have a large amount of symbolism, dance, culture and mysticiam associated with them. However, pragmatic US military men were not particularly interested in these things as they were in kicking butt and taking names and in order to keep them interested and keep the bucks rolling in a bad island economy people like Miyagi and Uechi started stressing combat use. The idea of "bunkai" is not a bad thing in and of itself. Like any tool though, there are opportunities for misuse. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest