Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 14:57:27 -0500 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #379 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Cross Training (Mark Harris) 2. Cross Training (Farral, Kim) 3. Re: Cross training (Richard Zaruba) 4. Etiquette - The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #378 (Paul Monier) 5. Re: Cross training (Ray Terry) 6. Fact versus Fiction martial arts articles and life experiences ? (Ken McDonough) 7. Cross-training Stuff (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 8. Since you "axed' me...... (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Mark Harris To: "the_dojang@martialartsresource.net" Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:30:54 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Cross Training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "The problem comes in the form of the student being presented often time conflicting informtation on how to "be" as a martial artist. Fore instance a TKD person tries to learn KSW/KJMS style....they will be much more stiff and jerky in their movements. Further as they learn the joint lock techniques they seem to more concerned with showing how the techniques can be defeated rather than how to do them properly. My instructors always told me to train hard and the answers come and they were right." I disagree with this comment. Can you explain what you mean by "how to be as a martial artist"? "They seem to be more concerned with showing how the techniques can be defeated rather than how to do them properly". Don't you think you are generalizing a bit? "For instance a TKD person tries to learn KSW/KJMS style....they will be much more stiff and jerky in their movements". How long had they worked at learning this art? I'm sure that at first it would appear this way but after time would improve. You sound a little elitist. I believe that trying to learn two arts at the same time may pose problems but also think that after learning one art, the next logical step would be to try and learn another. Mark Harris TKD Red 2nd ---------- Gateway EDI, Inc. ------------------------------ This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended addressee, or the person responsible for delivering it to them, you may not copy, forward disclose or otherwise use it or any part of it in any way. To do so may be unlawful. If you receive this email by mistake, please advise the sender immediately. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Farral, Kim" To: 'DoJang Digest' Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:58:30 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Cross Training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have Cross Trained in a couple of different arts...and have participated in a number of Open Style Tournaments...not to the point of trying to change my style or adapt the other styles to mine... but to learn the strengths, weaknesses, and philosophies of other styles... In Cross Training I believe that I have gained a better than average understanding of other styles which has enhanced my teaching methods...I am able to clearly explain specific motions techniques with confidence by understanding the options available as performed in other styles... This seems to help the students in providing them with options more suited to their own physical capabilities, as opposed to relying on one specific style which may not be physically suited to them... Understanding and being able to explain the technique, its purpose, and its origins as to the best of my knowledge, gives credence as to how and why we perform the techniques in our style... I do Not recommend cross training for anyone under Black Belt...I believe that colored belt training is crucial to understanding and learning the basics of the art style which they choose... once Black Belt is achieved, I believe that cross training for understanding...not for practice...is important to be a more well-rounded Martial artist... Anyway...tis my opinion... The One and Only Tink 5th Dan ************************************ If this email is not intended for you, or you are not responsible for the delivery of this message to the addressee, please note that this message may contain ITT Privileged/Proprietary Information. In such a case, you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. You should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Information contained in this message that does not relate to the business of ITT is neither endorsed by nor attributable to ITT. ************************************ [demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type application/ms-tnef] --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Richard Zaruba" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Cross training Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 11:55:34 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >re cross-training, obviously many instructors will not want their students cross training as that is a possible way to >lose the student. I suspect this is a primary motivation against training outside the current dojang. I would disagree with this statement, at least in my case. I want my student proficient in the basics of the style they are learning before going out and cross training. One other problem with cross-training for students is the different emphasis of other styles or schools. For example, we emphasize self defense application of our material including in our sparring training. A student who is currently cross training in taekwondo has learned several very bad habits, at least from my perspective, the emphasis of the tkd dojang is Olympic tkd, he drops his hands and just kicks because "hand techniques don't count in tkd sparring". But he gets very frustrated that he is struck in the head by hand techniques when we spar, has his rear leg swept out from under him, is grabbed and thrown with a technique followed by a strike or joint lock while he is on the ground. He is also very linear in his sparring, not going off-line, cutting to the sides instead going straight back. I have gone so far as suggest he switch completely to tkd if all he wants to do is spar in tournaments and compete, because that is not the emphasis of my dojang. He keeps telling me he wants to do it all, and it is clearly not working. I have to warn him continually about control and cooperation in the cooperative partner drills for self-defense techniques to learn how to properly employ them. This was never a problem until he started cross-training six months ago, he trained for a year and was making excellent progress until then. I don't know if this has been the experience of other instructors but this has been one of mine, I now highly discourage any cross-training as a result. The other reason I discourage cross-training is because there is so much material to learn already in our dojang. I teach and require basic groundwork and weapons at the under belt level as well as KSW sparring using the old rules that include grabbing, techniques and throws with finishes as well as just kicking and punching. Contact is determined by the level of the student and is progressive with the appropriate equipment being utilized. Once a student has developed a good applied level of proficiency I would actually encourage them to look around but not until then. Respectfully, Richard Zaruba --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Paul Monier" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 17:38:50 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Etiquette - The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #378 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net response to Mr. "Tink" not necessary for posting to site, but I would like to correspond with Mr. "Tink". My name is Paul Monier and Taekwon DO is my number one martial art for the past 21 years. Where do you train, what is your style ? Who is your teacher, he seems to have laid a very good foundation. Your comment was well reasoned and insightful. You show your experience and attitude. I especially like the following. "The etiquette is to not interrupt them when they are talking or busy...bow to them when eye contact is made...ask the question...bow when the answer is giving ...and bow after the instruction is complete..." Common courtesyn the dojang brings about mutual understanding, better communication, and healthier attitude, but I guess you already know that. Monier sahbum _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Cross training To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 12:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >re cross-training, obviously many instructors will not want their > students cross training as that is a possible way to > >lose the student. I suspect this is a primary motivation against > training outside the current dojang. > > I would disagree with this statement, at least in my case. I > want my student proficient in the basics of the style they are learning > before going out and cross training. Excellent point. I also feel that one should get to, at least, 1st Dan before branching out to other arts (i.e. cross training). But one will frequently encounter instructors that don't even want their students cross training then. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 11:50:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Ken McDonough To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Cc: maganda44@yahoo.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Fact versus Fiction martial arts articles and life experiences ? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It would be interesting to see some fact versus fiction articles here from martial arts practitioners on this list. Instead of the political in-fighting I often read, it would be enjoyable to read of a few life adventures wherein a martial artist had to practice his skills. It could be prefaced with either a Fact or Fiction caveat. I know some of the Masters here have to be cautious since they have a reputation to uphold. But for losers like me, so what ? Sort of like lessons learned on the street or other situations where u really had to employ what you learned. Or maybe even using your skills to avoid a confrontation. Or maybe using the symbolic movements you learn in martial arts in verbal confrontations. Anything to impart that has a lesson learned content or how you dealt with a whacked out boss ? Symbolically that is. For example, I once had a boss who was a nit picking, micro-managing pain in my derriere. I employed basic calming and meditative techniques on this guy and he became more irate when he could not rile me. Then he tried what I call "sandbagging" techniques. You know trying to jack me up on some made up beef like not calling him when I had to pick up my car and he was not even in the office that day ? I eventually went postal on him and used my machete ! Bloody, but got the job done (Fact or Fiction ?). For example #2: "I rolled into the diner off of Highway 44, Tulsa, and decided to have a cup of Joe and meet with Ole Fingers. Fingers got his name from a bowling alley accident--a scam that went awry. Fingers had one finger and a thump left. Anyway, Lucy poured me the coffee and mysteriously left...The diner became erily quiet. Big Louie greeted me and had Sam Perkins with him. We were talking about my moving in with his crew. Suddenly he grabbed my hands on the counter and I felt a wire being slipped around my neck...I immediately did the following..." Fact or Fiction ? Note: In this case, this story is Fiction but the reader would have to decide. The account above is based on two scenes in two different movies. Do u know which movies ? Just a thought to get away from the organizational bickering. Nah, I am wrong. You guys continue to debate about Wing ho's visits to all the Monasterys up in Korea to learn the ancient ways of The Korean National Martial Art. Yet, he won't let his underlings cross train or seek other Korean Masters ? Hmnnnnn. Ah, ignore me--I am having a bad day. Maybe. Cheers, McD... Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 13:50:45 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Cross-training Stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ray, Rudy, et al: ".....re crosstraining, obviously many instructors will not want their students cross training as that is a possible way to lose the student. I suspect this is a primary motivation against training outside the current dojang....." I am going to bet that Rays' thought is probably most accurate from an organizational standpoint. Perhaps I can suggest another reason as well. In my approach to Hapkido I am constantly on the lookout for material which helps me better understand the way I was taught to do a technique, or drill. To this end I am always seeking out folks who have a sound understanding of what they are doing, submit to doing things their way and then apply what I am experiencing to what I practice to improve the quality of my execution. (One of the Four Deportments is "refinement" or the ever increasing effort to execute a technique with greater and greater precision and authority.) My cross-training is done to help me in a life-time search to execute my Hapkido with ever increasing skill and understanding. Quite recently this entailed putting on a White Belt and spending two days of endless repetition regarding various balance-breaking techniques. I can also include taking a Kicking Module at M Wests' seminar so that someone who knows more about kicking than I do can give me some pointers. Now, I can make this statement about myself because I know what it is that I am working towards, what I am trying to do and what price I am willing to pay. But lets suppose that I am a gueppie with a couple of tests behind me and I start visiting other arts (or perhaps only other styles of my art) and I see things I think that would work as well or better than what I have learned so far. Instead of taking away the principles and using them on what I was taught in my home dochang to do that better, I start bringing back the techniques to my home dochang. Needless to say, what a teacher of a particular MA does not care to see is one of their students performing techniques from another art in his school. Along these lines, another drawback I see is that perhaps those folks with whom I spend my cross-training time may begin to expect increasing amounts of commitment from me to join their organization, or forsake my original art in deference to assuming their methods, curriculum and so forth. When this is the case, I think that Rays' original thought is probably the dynamic that comes into play. I firmly believe that one of the greatest strengthes that the KMA bring to the MA world in general is the ability to make room for and incorporate in principles of the traditions from other disciplines. I also think that this is an activity best kept to individuals who have an appreciation for just what it is that they are trying to do. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 14:03:02 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Since you "axed' me...... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear ???????: "..... I'm a yellow belt (sorry, I'm a newbie) and I need advice on the axe kick. when I practice, I always hit the board, can someone help with this?..." The motion preparatory to excuting the downward motion of this kick would be a long, shallow arc from the floor to a position in front of the opposite shoulder. There follows a short, shallow arc over to a position above the target and in line with the same shoulder as the kick leg. The kick is completed with a long, deep arc downwards through the target and a return to the original position of the foot on the floor. If you are hitting the target with the top of your foot (?) on the way up it sounds as though you are not using enough hip rotation, which then suggests that you are not making all the commitment to the descending stroke that you might as well. FWIW. BTW: It helps a lot when you sign your name. :-) Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest