Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 06:53:04 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #402 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Why not Taekwondo? (Kent Frazier) 2. Park Hae Man (Kent Frazier) 3. Patch thanks! (Ray Terry) 4. Re: Jhoon Rhee's name (Kent Frazier) 5. back from Jackson (Hapkido Self Defense Center) 6. Re: Re: Jhoon Rhee's name (Daniel Paik) 7. Apples (Charles Veuleman) 8. Re: Park Hae Man (Tom Kennelly) 9. More on GM Sell and Chung Do Kwan (Tom Kennelly) 10. Re: Apples (Tom Kennelly) 11. Re: back from Jackson (Ray Terry) 12. [Eskrima] Feldenkrais (fwd) (Ray Terry) 13. KMAIA or Han'guk musulin chidoja hyophoi, redux (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Kent Frazier" To: "The Dojang Digest" Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:27:49 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Why not Taekwondo? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I must ask why we should not use the name Taekwondo? After all, it is an appropriate description of our art. We do indeed learn to smash with our feet and fists. Would any other name be more accurate or more appropriate? We are not Shotokan Karate, although we recognize the profound impact it has had on our style. Tae Soo Do and Kong Soo Do are no more descriptive of our art than Taekwondo. This is a part of our tradition. Our martial art has been passed down as Taekwondo, and I do not really see any reason to change that. About the only reason I could think of to do such a thing would be because we don't want to associate ourselves with the style and politics of the large Taekwondo organizations (WTF/ITF/WTA/ITA/etc.) We do in fact call our art Korean Karate in addition to Taekwondo, and I feel that this is a somewhat descriptive term, but it has a tendency to confuse people outside our system, so I usually just refer to it as Taekwondo. I may have given the impression that we are shaky on our traditions, which is not entirely true. We are aware of the origin of most of our traditions, but a few have reached that stage where it is difficult to discern the origin. How many of you out there actually know the origin of the holidays we celebrate here in the United States. I believe the origins of most of them lie in pagan festivals that were turned into Christian holidays with the spread of Christianity. There is some debate over this subject, and other origins are possible. Most of you probably have traditions that you don't understand the original purpose of. If you use Korean terms, why do you do so? Is it because your teacher taught it to you that way? Why don't we translate these terms into English? Would that be a violation of tradition? If it would be, wouldn't it be a violation of our tradition to translate these Japanese terms we learned into Korean terms? It is as much a part of our tradition as whatever terms you use are a part of yours. There comes a point in tradition where the origins are forgotten and the tradition is kept on for its own sake. I know our tradition sounds strange to those of you that have a different one. In the same way, I am sure some of your traditions would seem very strange to us. We do things the way we do because that is the way we learned to do it, and we haven't yet had a reason to change it. I hope this clarifies things a bit. Thanks for listening, Kent --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Kent Frazier" To: "The Dojang Digest" Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:41:20 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Park Hae Man Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Does anyone know where Park Hae Man fits into the lineage of the Chung Do Kwan. I did not find his name among the original black belts of the Chung Do Kwan under Lee Won Kuk. Is he a student of one of these black belts? He is apparently the instructor of Edward B. Sell, and I am just trying to figure out where the USCDKA fits in with the rest of the Chung Do Kwan. Thanks in advance, Kent Frazier --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 11:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Patch thanks! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks to Master Denise Lee for giving me a school patch over the weekend to add to the collection available for viewing off martialartsresource.com. Also thanks to Master West for allowing me to copy several interesting ones from his collection. Like the_dojang? Have a cloth patch you'd like to like to contribute to the collection? Snailmail to: PO Box 110841 Campbell, California 95011-0841 Much appreciated! Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Kent Frazier" To: "The Dojang Digest" Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:57:03 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Jhoon Rhee's name Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Burdick, How could Yi have transliterated into Rhee? Is this an aspect of Korean I am unfamiliar with? I can understand how it could be Li or Ri (they are the same letter in Korean,) but how could it be Yi? Also, how would you write Yi in Hangul? I have never seen the vowel 'yi' for the other vowels beginnign with a 'y' you add a bar to the side of the vowel where a bar already exists. However, 'i' is a vertical line with no other bar, so how would you make it 'yi?' As far as I can tell, the Hangul for his name should be something like: 리춘구 : [riul-i] [ch'iut-u-niun] [kiyok-u] or maybe: 리줌구 : [riul-i] [chiut-u-niun] [kiyok-u] right? I hope the Hangul above came out on other computers and didn't cause any problems. Thanks, Kent Frazier --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" To: Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:48:25 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] back from Jackson Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <<>> Ok Ray, you are going to have to do better than that. I am glad to here that the very tall Mr. Holcomb received his 4th dan. But, you are going to have to provide more details as this is the first time I have missed the festivities in Jackson in many years. Jere R. Hilland www.geocities.com/hapkiyukwonsul. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:30:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Daniel Paik Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Jhoon Rhee's name To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net the transliteration of korean letters is more complex than meets the eye. the last name of "Lee" is generally spelled with a "O" (circle) and "|" (line) in hangul. This is pronounced "ee" as in "bee". however, this is a more modern form of korean grammar where many of the "lee-ul" (R or L sounds character) became changed to the "O" (circle) character. in north korea or in very old korean times, many koreans with this last name, actually spelled it using the R or L character (lee-ul) instead of the circle (ee-eng). So many spell "Yi" as "Lee", "Rhee", etc. The "lee-ul" is sometimes pronounced like a "L" and sometimes pronounced like a "R". anyway, that's my rudimentary linguistics post of the day. Dan. --- Kent Frazier wrote: > Mr. Burdick, > How could Yi have transliterated into Rhee? Is this an aspect of Korean I > am > unfamiliar with? I can understand how it could be Li or Ri (they are the > same > letter in Korean,) but how could it be Yi? Also, how would you write Yi in > Hangul? I have never seen the vowel 'yi' for the other vowels beginnign > with > a 'y' you add a bar to the side of the vowel where a bar already exists. > However, 'i' is a vertical line with no other bar, so how would you make it > 'yi?' > > As far as I can tell, the Hangul for his name should be something like: > > 리춘구 : [riul-i] [ch'iut-u-niun] [kiyok-u] > > or maybe: > > 리줌구 : [riul-i] [chiut-u-niun] [kiyok-u] > > right? > > I hope the Hangul above came out on other computers and didn't cause any > problems. > > > Thanks, > Kent Frazier > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:32:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Veuleman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Apples Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I really like the comment about good and bad apples in the martial arts. Nice job ma'am. Okay, on the Sell's, it seems I have hit a nerve. Let me clairify please. I know the Sells run the USCDKA and the Sell Ministry Team. I know they are two different entities of the same Man. I am not knocking the Sell Ministry. How can you saftly knock something done in the name of God anyway? :D I actually don't even really care about the USCDKA, there are a million organizations to belong to, this is just another one to me. I just find fault in Sell Chung Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do FROM the way it is being marketed over there by Sell's USCDKA. I have not seen it, and will probably not have a chance to see it for a while. What I am saying is from what I can veiw over the net and from things I have read from USCDKA members, FROM MY POINT OF VEIW OF THE SITE, they are doing only WTF recognized forms, and following the WTF standards for curriculum. Like I said, I am speculating only. I have that right. Now, whoever posted their 'black belt requirements', that kinda thing impresses no one, because you cant understand it unless you have been through it yourself. I am sure everyone that owns a school has a kick butt black belt test that they run, and to write it down only degrades it in my opinion. We could go back and forth all day long, 'my black belt candidates have to do this, oh yeah, well mine have to do this, oh but wait man, mine do this' and then Ray will spam us to death. Hopefully onto lighter subjects. Please. Mr. West, is their anyway you could send me a packet for your next seminar? I am a little interested. Plus I have a couple of color belts that would have a good time also. Just send what you can to the address at the bottom of my post. Thank you. Someone wanted my website address, it is www.bluewavekarate.com Yours in the martial arts Charlie Veuleman ===== ------------------------------------- L. Charles Veuleman Natchitoches Karate Institute 204 Rapides Drive Natchitoches, LA 71457 318-356-7727 http://www.bluewavekarate.com ------------------------------------- --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Tom Kennelly" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Park Hae Man Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:49:25 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I cannot directly answer this question directly but while looking through the Forces of Tae Kwon Do, written by GM Sell, there is a picture of GM Sell receiving his 9th Dan World Chung Do Kwan. The caption goes as follows: Great Grandmaster Uoon Kyu Uhm, Vice President of World Taekwondo Federation and President of World Taekwondo Chung Do Kwan Association, Grandmaster Hae Man Park, Vice President of World Taekwondo Chung Do Kwan award Grandmaster Sell his 9th Degree Black Belt (in World Taekwondo Chung Do Kwan) dated August 10, 1997. Photo taken in the Kukkiwon at the office of World Taekwondo Vice President Uoon Kyu Uhm. As you know from the history posting by Master Terry that Uoon Kyu Uhm was a student of GM Lee Won Kuk. I conclude that is where Uoon Kyu Uhm gets his Chung Do Kwan credentials. I also conclude that since Hae Man Park is a VP of World Taekwondo Chung Do Kwan that he has Chung Do Kwan credentials as well. I hope someone else out there can make a more direct connect between GM Park and Chung Do Kwan. Additionally I believe in GM Sell's credibility as substantiated by his actions and the willingness of his instructors to promote him to 9th Dan in both WTCKD and WTF. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kent Frazier" To: "The Dojang Digest" Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 2:41 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] Park Hae Man Does anyone know where Park Hae Man fits into the lineage of the Chung Do Kwan. I did not find his name among the original black belts of the Chung Do Kwan under Lee Won Kuk. Is he a student of one of these black belts? He is apparently the instructor of Edward B. Sell, and I am just trying to figure out where the USCDKA fits in with the rest of the Chung Do Kwan. Thanks in advance, Kent Frazier _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Tom Kennelly" To: "dojang" Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:59:40 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] More on GM Sell and Chung Do Kwan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Now that I have opened up the GM Sell Forces of Tae Kwon Do I found another picture of GM Sell being congratulated by GM Uoon Kyu Uhm in 1963. For a little more history GM Sell first named his US based TKD organization Korean Tae Kwon Do Association of America in 1967 and later, in 1976, changed the name to US Chung Do Kwan. --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Tom Kennelly" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Apples Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:06:45 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hmmm........ what has hit a nerve is your reliance on a web page for your information about an organization. Please go visit him or his schools and then give us an informed opinion. Now onto another of your comments "and to write it down only degrades it in my opinion". Let me explain the reason for posting those very general categories of the black belt test. It was to let you know that ONE of the USCDKA affiliated schools runs a traditional TKD program. You seem to think that the inclusion of WTF forms makes the organization sports oriented. It does not. Please re-read my post. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Veuleman" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 4:32 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] Apples I really like the comment about good and bad apples in the martial arts. Nice job ma'am. Okay, on the Sell's, it seems I have hit a nerve. Let me clairify please. I know the Sells run the USCDKA and the Sell Ministry Team. I know they are two different entities of the same Man. I am not knocking the Sell Ministry. How can you saftly knock something done in the name of God anyway? :D I actually don't even really care about the USCDKA, there are a million organizations to belong to, this is just another one to me. I just find fault in Sell Chung Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do FROM the way it is being marketed over there by Sell's USCDKA. I have not seen it, and will probably not have a chance to see it for a while. What I am saying is from what I can veiw over the net and from things I have read from USCDKA members, FROM MY POINT OF VEIW OF THE SITE, they are doing only WTF recognized forms, and following the WTF standards for curriculum. Like I said, I am speculating only. I have that right. Now, whoever posted their 'black belt requirements', that kinda thing impresses no one, because you cant understand it unless you have been through it yourself. I am sure everyone that owns a school has a kick butt black belt test that they run, and to write it down only degrades it in my opinion. We could go back and forth all day long, 'my black belt candidates have to do this, oh yeah, well mine have to do this, oh but wait man, mine do this' and then Ray will spam us to death. Hopefully onto lighter subjects. Please. Mr. West, is their anyway you could send me a packet for your next seminar? I am a little interested. Plus I have a couple of color belts that would have a good time also. Just send what you can to the address at the bottom of my post. Thank you. Someone wanted my website address, it is www.bluewavekarate.com Yours in the martial arts Charlie Veuleman ===== ------------------------------------- L. Charles Veuleman Natchitoches Karate Institute 204 Rapides Drive Natchitoches, LA 71457 318-356-7727 http://www.bluewavekarate.com ------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] back from Jackson To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:25:23 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > << Great to see everyone there and especially to see perhaps the only 7 foot > Hapkido player in the world (Don Holcomb) receive his 4th Dan from Master > West. Everyone had a great time. Can't wait for #18 in March...>>> > > Ok Ray, you are going to have to do better than that. I am glad to here that > the very tall Mr. Holcomb received his 4th dan. But, you are going to have > to provide more details as this is the first time I have missed the > festivities in Jackson in many years. Jere R. Hilland Well, registration began on Friday at 6PM... Those instructing were Master Allison (Flowing Techniques), Master Instructor Borucki (Punch Defense), Master Instructor Mangum (Short Stick), Master McHenry (Advanced Kicking), Mr. Lindsly (Basic Wrist Techniques), Master Instructor Tavassoli (Counter Techniques), Master Instructor Kuns (Combination Techniques), Master Hodder (Stretching Techniques), Mr. Propst (Cane Techniques), Mr. Hodges (Ground Techniques) and lil'ole me teaching Knife Defense. Master West did his always interesting HKD Black Belt session on Saturday as well as teaching a session on Reading Hangul. Ohhh, and Chief Assistant to the Assistant Chief Wayne Watkins (did I get that title right?) took over the honor of teaching Mr. Sexton's usual Shiatsu session on Sunday AM. Sorry if I missed anyone... Two excellent demos from Dr. Sanders and Dr. Tsao from West Hapkido Academy. You can tell these two women really enjoy hurting people, once they are temporarily relieved of their Hippocratic Oath. :) Of course there were more than just two demos, and all were very good. All the sessions were excellent, but I especially enjoyed Master Allison's segment on Flowing Techniques. Amazing... Jere, as you know, Masters West and CA-to-the-AC Watkins really know how to throw one heck of a gathering! Others should also feel free to comment. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com P.S. Happy B-Day again and glad to hear your wife is feeling better. --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] [Eskrima] Feldenkrais (fwd) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarding from the Eskrima list... Ray ============================================================== From: "Tom Meadows" Subject: [Eskrima] Feldenkrais Greetings, Ray asked how Feldenkrais' theories affected how I teach martial arts. That's too complicated for me to answer in less than 5 hours of typing. But to summarize: I have a chart that separates the mental and physical aspects of teaching ANY physical movement. It is based on Feldenkaris' theories with five categories under the mental side and four under the physical side, the integration of which results in Whole Body Movement or the manifestation of Chi as it is more commonly known. The chart is 30 inches long and 11 inches wide, and so far no one has come up with any aspect of martial arts training that is not throughly covered in the chart. It is the instructional methodology equivalent of Bruce Lee's five ways of attack. Feldenkrais' principles are pervasive in the structure of the chart. Let's look at section four of the physical aspects of training which is Means of Spatial Orientation. This section deals with how you orient yourself relative to the field of gravity, some would simply call this balance, but it goes much deeper than that. Most are familiar with the common means of spatial orientation: Vestibular apparatus (middle ear), Auditory inputs (Stereo Sound) , Visual (Stereo Depth Perception), Olfactory inputs (Smell senses) . The inputs that are less common, and are dealt with extensively by Feldenkrais, is the function of the Haptic System of the body which includes the built in gravity receptors in the muscles and the related tactile inputs (touch). Feldenkrais divides all muscles in the body in to those that work with gravity and those that work against it as part of his foundational theory. When you integrate the haptic aspects with the other areas then you have a solid analytical tool for solving a student's problem in any particular area. For myself I have badly damaged middle ears , and minimal depth percetion, and have to rely more strongly on other means of spatial orientation. Being aware of this means that I choose my training options to compensate for these weaknesses. Feldenkrais' learning methods are specifically designed to address problem solving in these areas and many others. Tom Meadows _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:55:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] KMAIA or Han'guk musulin chidoja hyophoi, redux Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Additional info on the KMAIA. GM Pan Gon Song was once listed as the head of the KMAIA, or Han'guk musulin chidoja hyophoi. This information just in from Gm Song of Shihung City, South Korea. According to Gm Song... - There is no such organization in Shihung City. - Korean masters do not have to belong to the KMAIA to teach or open a school. - The KMAIA was created in the US. - GM Song was at one time Korean President of the KMAIA, but only as a figure-head to give a Korean identity to this US organization. - GM Song no longer has any connection w/the KMAIA. So again, caveat emptor... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest