Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 18:54:04 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #404 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: electronic scoring (Mark M. Smith) 2. Greetings from Tulsa (Ken McDonough) 3. Re: Ear Rings (SallyBaughn@aol.com) 4. Tall Tulsa Tale (Ken McDonough) 5. Re: used sparring gear (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 6. Re: palgwe mpegs (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 7. Chung Do Kwan questions (Paul Sullivan) 8. Re: Chung Do Kwan questions (Ray Terry) 9. Taming Tulsa (Ray Terry) 10. Re: Re: electronic scoring (AE Bohanon) 11. Re: some questions (Kent Frazier) 12. Danger of ear rings (Rudy Timmerman) 13. Re: Re: some questions (Ray Terry) 14. Answers to questions: Chung Do Kwan/Charlie (Nathan Miller) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 16:30:01 -0400 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: "Mark M. Smith" Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: electronic scoring Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net At 01:28 AM 8/13/2002 -0700, you wrote: >What type of electronic scoring are you referring to? I don't know about any >other sport, but for Taekwondo it still takes 4 corner judges to operate the >system used for olympic sparring. Actually, only 3 judges are used for electronic scoring in Olympic Taekwondo competition. The change from 4 corner judges to 3 corner judges was made when electronic scoring was introduced. The problem was it takes 2 judges to award a point. With the electronic scoring if all 4 judges pushed the button to score a point, but not exactly at the same time, often 2 points would be recorded by the electronic scoring system (ie 2 judges record 1 point while the other 2 judges combine to score the other point). With 3 corner judges this is not possible. > What type of scoring does fencing use? I am not familiar with >fencing, so I wouldn't know. Electronic scoring in fencing uses a completed electric circuit to indicate a "touch". The foil is wired and the vest is wired. When the tip of the foil touches the vest, the circuit is complete and a "touch" is scored. No judges required (at least to indicate a point). Taekwondo is also working on this type of scoring system, but it is a slightly more difficult problem. First, the force of the blow is important. Second the weapons, (feet and hands) are impractical to "wire". Thus, even if a chest protector that can correctly sense the force of a clean strike versus a push (not easy at all) is constructed, there is still no way to tell if the contact was made by the foot or the shin. There is also the problem of the amount of force. Clearly, the amount of force required by to heavyweights to score a point should be more than for two fin weights, but how do you calibrate the force and make sure it is exactly the same for both competitors. Though there are some good prototype systems available, the consensus is that it is still to easy to "cheat" the system. The fear is that the electronic sensors will reward techniques that are not considered "good" taekwondo. If you think this is a silly worry, then you should check out the debates in fencing about the changes in technique that happened when electronic scoring was introduced. It is a real concern. Respectfully, Mark M. Smith Merrimack, NH --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:15:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Ken McDonough To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Greetings from Tulsa Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi: Greetings from Tulsa. Bye. Big Ken __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: SallyBaughn@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 13:15:59 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Ear Rings Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Gary wrote: << Please share with me your school's policy and Why they cannot wear earrings during training. If it is a safety issue, explain the danger of wearing them. >> My son allows any jewelry that is flat to the body, i.e., stud earrings, as long as it will be covered while sparring. Obviously it's a safety thing, dangly earrings could be caught by a kick or punch and rip an ear, facial jewelry could do the same kind of damage. Rings that are not flat (engagement-type rings) could either scratch/cut an opponent or be caught by a hand or foot and damage the wearer and/or the person who hit it. Sally --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:25:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Ken McDonough To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Cc: maganda44@yahoo.com Subject: [The_Dojang] Tall Tulsa Tale Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (Background Music: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly theme song); Tulsa, circa Aug 2002. Having missed Ray Terry's Filipino based Knife Defense Seminar at West's Hapkido gathering, I knew I was in for trouble. I merely asked for a bialy and bagel with a side order of pastrami on rye. The Tulsa Jerry counter man, said "That stuff is made in New York City, try our Tulsa burger !" He was holding a large knife while cutting the beef and talking to me. To think that a city does not have bagels and bialy's. Oh well. Cultural shock set in. McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 13:30:32 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: used sparring gear Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> hi tim, ebay is always a good place to check for used sparring gear. some great prices and good gear there. additionally, we've got a sparring gear set for $85 to list members. [includes chest protector, head gear, cloth armguards, cloth shinguard (with or without instep), groin protector, mouth guard]. enjoy your training :) melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy http://www.cjmaa.com Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.cjmas.com Toll Free: 1-877-847-4072 Proud Sponsor of the 2001 10th Annual US Open TKD Championships --__--__-- Message: 6 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 13:36:31 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: palgwe mpegs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> hi davide, there's also master john brown's site: Hapkido & TaeKwonDo or http://www.aspirefitness.com/taekwondohapkido.asp take care, melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy http://www.cjmaa.com Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.cjmas.com Toll Free: 1-877-847-4072 Proud Sponsor of the 2001 10th Annual US Open TKD Championships --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:42:36 -0700 From: "Paul Sullivan" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Chung Do Kwan questions Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Fred:< did Won Kuk Lee learn his martial arts? I believe Won > Kuk Lee founded the Chung Do Kwan, is that correct? > I have a lot more questions but I'll stop here to see > what kind of response I get.>> GM LEE, Won Kuk learned from Funakoshi, Gichin and his son while he was in Law school in Japan. It is disputed whether Gen. Choi actually learned Shotokan or not. I would recommend doing a search for "the Madern History of Taekwondo" it is a book that is in te Korean language, but the first 5 chapters has been translated and posted several places around the web. pauls --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Chung Do Kwan questions To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > GM LEE, Won Kuk learned from Funakoshi, Gichin and his son while he was > in Law school in Japan. It is disputed whether Gen. Choi actually > learned Shotokan or not. I would recommend doing a search for "the > Madern History of Taekwondo" it is a book that is in te Korean > language, but the first 5 chapters has been translated and posted > several places around the web. No need to search. It is still right here... http://martialartsresource.com/anonftp/pub/the_dojang/digests/history.html Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:57:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Taming Tulsa Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net While taking time out of his busy day taming Tulsa, Big Ken mentions that there was Filipino knife defense taught at the recent KMA seminar in Jackson. Actually, no. What was taught was RKD (Reactive Knife Defense). Yes, it was created by an FMA Master (Mike Inay), but FMA knife is far more flashy than is RKD. RKD is a very basic knife defense system/program created for LEOs and civilians. But if you want flash, I can do that, too. Snake!!! :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "AE Bohanon" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: electronic scoring Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:00:27 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I just have to say I was a timekeeper at Portland State University where they had a competition and we used this electronic scoring. It had a lot of bugs since it was the first time being used. But, by the end of the day the only real problems were the judges not telling the timekepper/scorekepper what to do. Amy B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark M. Smith" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 1:30 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: electronic scoring > At 01:28 AM 8/13/2002 -0700, you wrote: > >What type of electronic scoring are you referring to? I don't know about any > >other sport, but for Taekwondo it still takes 4 corner judges to operate the > >system used for olympic sparring. > > Actually, only 3 judges are used for electronic scoring in Olympic > Taekwondo competition. The change from 4 corner judges to 3 corner judges > was made when electronic scoring was introduced. The problem was it takes > 2 judges to award a point. With the electronic scoring if all 4 judges > pushed the button to score a point, but not exactly at the same time, often > 2 points would be recorded by the electronic scoring system (ie 2 judges > record 1 point while the other 2 judges combine to score the other > point). With 3 corner judges this is not possible. > > > What type of scoring does fencing use? I am not familiar with > >fencing, so I wouldn't know. > > Electronic scoring in fencing uses a completed electric circuit to indicate > a "touch". The foil is wired and the vest is wired. When the tip of the > foil touches the vest, the circuit is complete and a "touch" is scored. No > judges required (at least to indicate a point). > > Taekwondo is also working on this type of scoring system, but it is a > slightly more difficult problem. First, the force of the blow is > important. Second the weapons, (feet and hands) are impractical to > "wire". Thus, even if a chest protector that can correctly sense the force > of a clean strike versus a push (not easy at all) is constructed, there is > still no way to tell if the contact was made by the foot or the > shin. There is also the problem of the amount of force. Clearly, the > amount of force required by to heavyweights to score a point should be more > than for two fin weights, but how do you calibrate the force and make sure > it is exactly the same for both competitors. Though there are some good > prototype systems available, the consensus is that it is still to easy to > "cheat" the system. The fear is that the electronic sensors will reward > techniques that are not considered "good" taekwondo. > > If you think this is a silly worry, then you should check out the debates > in fencing about the changes in technique that happened when electronic > scoring was introduced. It is a real concern. > > > Respectfully, > Mark M. Smith > Merrimack, NH > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Kent Frazier" To: "The Dojang Digest" Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:04:33 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: some questions Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I will attempt to answer your questions about the Chung Do Kwan. Lee Won Kuk did indeed found the Chung Do Kwan, you are correct about that.Lee Won Kuk studied under Funakoshi Gichin in Japan, as I believe Choi Hong Hi did. They returned to Korea later and taught their art. They both Koreanized the art somewhat, but in different ways. I believe Gen. Choi was much more staunchly pro-Korea, and so he tried to make the Oh Do Kwan very Korean and to sever his ties with his Japanese lineage. Lee Won Kuk, on the other hand, was accused of being pro-Japanese, and was only allowed to teach his art because he had friends in high places. I hope this helped, Kent Frazier --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 18:15:46 -0400 From: "Rudy Timmerman" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Danger of ear rings Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Gary writes: > Please share with me your school's policy and Why they cannot wear earrings > during training. If it is a safety issue, explain the danger of wearing them. Hello Gary: Ear rings can cause serious tears of the ear, and the stud can stick the wearer in the neck. Should the stud come loose, the lost piece can be stepped on by other students. Enough reasons for me to tell students NO. For those who have just pierced the ear, and cannot remove the jewelry, I ask them to tape it. It is my job to see that everyone is as safe as we can make it. Should a student rip the ear of a student wearing an ear ring, s/he might even be sued (along with the school owner). I have to prevent such possibilities. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: some questions To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 13:44:01 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >I will attempt to answer your questions about the Chung Do Kwan. Lee Won Kuk >did indeed found the Chung Do Kwan, you are correct about that.Lee Won Kuk >studied under Funakoshi Gichin in Japan, as I believe Choi Hong Hi did. They >returned to Korea later and taught their art. They both Koreanized the art >somewhat, but in different ways. I believe Gen. Choi was much more staunchly >pro-Korea, and so he tried to make the Oh Do Kwan very Korean and to sever his >ties with his Japanese lineage. Lee Won Kuk, on the other hand, was accused >of being pro-Japanese, and was only allowed to teach his art because he had >friends in high places. Gen. Choi did not study under Funakoshi Sensei. We must remember that the Oh Do Kwan was a sub-kwan of the Chung Do Kwan. So I doubt there was much difference, especially in the early to mid 1950s. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:53:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Nathan Miller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Answers to questions: Chung Do Kwan/Charlie Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Figured I'd drop a line to answer some of these, as they were mostly pointed towards us anyway, I think... Freddie wrote: <<>> For the most part, yes, they are. Both terms refer to forms or patterns. Poomse is generally used by WTF practitioners, while hyung I have generally seen used by everyone else (although I have seen several WTF books refer to forms as hyung as well). ITF refers to their forms as tuls. <<< What is a So Ki? What is Jasae? What is Ku Bi? Whats the difference between Sohn Nal and Sudo?>>> A soki is a stance, if I recall correctly. Or a sogi, as the Koreans have that g/k sound going. I have never seen or heard jasae or kubi, and there is no difference between sohnal and sudo, to my knowledge - both are knifehands, though I've only ever seen sudo in refernce to the knifehand block. <<< When were the jumping flying kicks added to the curriculum of the Chung Do Kwan.>>> Hmm... haven't a clue, actually. I've read in a couple of places that Lee, Won Kuk studied taekkyon at some point in his life, so they may come from that influence, but I don't know how much I trust that. <<< It is my understanding the Japanese suppressed Korean culture and forced their own culture on the oppressed Korean peoples during the Japanese occupation at the beginning of the last century. Shotokan karate was the style of karate taught to Gen. Choi Hong Hi, therefore that is what he taught to his Korean soldiers. Where did Won Kuk Lee learn his martial arts? I believe Won Kuk Lee founded the Chung Do Kwan, is that correct? I have a lot more questions but I'll stop here to see what kind of response I get.>>> Yes, the Japanese forced their culture upon the Koreans during the occupation. I've read accounts saying there was no real push, and accounts describing horrible things the Japanese did. I'm inclined to believe the latter. General Choi, Hong Hi studied Shotokan while he was in Japan attending university, as did Lee, Won Kuk, who opened the Chung Do Kwan in 1944, I believe, or 1945. Choi was given a 4th dan Chung Do Kwan certificate by Lee, and opened his kwan, the Oh Do Kwan, under the auspices of the CDK. His testing panels generally consisted of high ranking CDKers. Morgan wrote: <<>> Thank you, yes, he has redone it recently. One of his creative spurts. :) <<>> The picture was taken four years ago. He bought it to try out the uniform, and disliked the way it tied and fit, if I remember correctly. A uniform is a far cry from association. <<>> Actually, there are other pictures. On the pictures page, there are shots of two other students wearing shorter uniforms. We allow the students to choose which style they would like to wear, long or short. Being Louisiana, many choose the short version. Once the students have reached a certain rank, they are allowed to wear different colored uniforms, within reason, and excepting red. There is a "dirty" school that wears red uniforms, and most schools in our area avoid the color. <<>> None taken. I hope I was able to answer your questions. And I was the guy in white/black. :) Michael Whalen wrote: <<>> Actually, before this gets too big, he was referring to someone else's post. Someone posted the black belt test/requirements for another Chung Do Kwan organization, that's what he was referring to, not the Kuk Sool Won requirements you posted. Respectfully, Nathan Miller --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest