Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 03:01:55 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #422 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Kwans... (Nathan Miller) 2. training diary (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 3. More kwan info (Ray Terry) 4. Re: Kwans... (Ray Terry) 5. hapkido and china (michael tomlinson) 6. RE:Fred's Question on the kwans (bredfield) 7. Re: Moo Duk Kwan emblem (Dana Vaillancourt) 8. Hapkido/Chin Na (Laurie S.) 9. 3rd high Dan promotions (Ray Terry) 10. Richard Bustillo Seminar in Calgary Sept 14, 15 (Ray Terry) 11. Sport TKD Calendar (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 04:08:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Nathan Miller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Kwans... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Heya Fred... While I'm not sure of the locations of most of the kwans (the only one I really know is the Chung Do Kwan, which was based in Seoul, and I believe most of its annex kwans were centered around Inchon, though I could be wrong on that point), I can answer some of the other questions. Many of the schools practiced different arts, yes. Some practiced the same art, too. Ji Do Kwan I believe practiced Chinese chuan fa. Chung Do Kwan practiced Japanese karate. Moo Duk Kwan practiced a Chinese based art using the Japanese karate forms, with Chinese forms in the higher ranks. Some of the kwans called their art tang soo do "way of the China hand," the old name for karate, when the kara character meant China or Tang, as in the Tang dynasty. Some others called it kong soo do, or "way of the empty hand," the newer meaning for karate when the first character was changed. Others, mostly Chinese influenced, called their art kwon bup, "fist method," or something along those lines. There are two Moo Duk Kwans because when the kwans decided to unify the founder of Moo Duk Kwan, Hwang Kee, decided he did not want his art under the new umbrella. He actually fought in court for this right, and won. Some of the other high ranking people in the Moo Duk Kwan didn't agree, though, and left to join the new unified art of tae kwon do. So, we now have Moo Duk Kwan tang soo do descended from Hwang Kee, and Moo Duk Kwan tae kwon do descended from the Korean Tae Kwon Do Association. Although, if I recall correctly, Hwang kee copyrighted the name Moo Duk Kwan, so theoretically, there was only one true MDK. That's if I recall correctly. The Palge forms, or Palgue, or Palgwe, are the original forms designed by the KTA for the new unified tae kwon do. Later they were pushed aside for the Taeguk forms, which are currently in use. The fact that your instructor teaches Bassai, Naihanchi, and Pinan means he probably was either from the Moo Duk Kwan or one of the Japanese based kwans. If he actually calls them Bassai, Naihanchi, and Pinan, its a better bet that he's from the Moo Duk Kwan. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say he was in the KTA branch of MDK, and then didn't like where the organization was going. Of course, I could be wrong - does the WTF still give out rank with the Palgwe forms? Hopefully, that's what you were looking for. If not, I'm sure everybody else on the list will be responding, too. :) Nathan > The original kwans were spread all over Korea, > right? > All the schools practiced something different, > right? > Does anyone know what the differences were or are. > Have those differences been lost to extinction? > My instructor, Master Young Chul Chung, formerly of > Kokomo, IN taught Palagae poomse, at the purple belt > level, which was after brown belt, he required his > students to learn Japanese kata such as Bassai, > Nahanchi, and Pinan. These kata are also practiced > in > Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do. I later found out there is > Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do also. Why is this? > > Fred --__--__-- Message: 2 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 08:40:29 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] training diary Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "I'd be interested in taking a look at that as well. I used to keep one when I ran long distance. For me, it helped my focus and quantified my progress ... or lack thereof. Regards, Will" send me your address, will :) take care, melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy http://www.cjmaa.com Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.cjmas.com Toll Free: 1-877-847-4072 Proud Sponsor of the 2003 Annual Show Me State Open Martial Arts Tournament --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 07:44:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] More kwan info Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The original Kwans were five; the Moo Duk Kwan (Hwang Kee in Seoul), Yon Moo Kwan (Chung Sang Sup in Seoul), YMCA Kwon Bup (Pyong In Yun in Seoul), Chung Do Kwan (Lee Won Kuk in Seoul) and Song Moo Kwan (Ro Byong Jik in Kaisung). The YMCA Kwon Bup later became the Chang Moo Kwan. The Yon Moo Kwan practiced Yudo/Judo. The YMCA Kwon Bup practiced a flavor of kwonbup (Chuan'fa/Kempo). The remainder practiced a Shotokan-like style with Lee and Ro training directly in Shotokan in Japan and Hwang Kee training briefly under Lee at the Chung Do Kwan. The Moo Duk Kwan first began teaching Hwa Soo Do, but was unsuccessful when using this style. It later reopened, this time teaching Tang Soo Do (Karate-do). Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Kwans... To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 07:53:40 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Taeguk forms, which are currently in use. The fact > that your instructor teaches Bassai, Naihanchi, and > Pinan means he probably was either from the Moo Duk Kwan ... The names Bassai and Naihanchi are heard, but Pyung Ahn is usually the term used for the Pinan/Heian set of forms. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 14:54:38 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] hapkido and china Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have a ton of info and video's on Chi-na,, I have also noticed what Ray talks about,, the techniques are VERY close to Hapkido but the footwork is almost non existent, not even close to what Hapkido teaches, they do have some awesome drills to develop hand speed and grabbing power, no disrespect intended to anyone but I have noticed that a lot of chinese based martial arts are very stiff legged in application, I have friends who do Wing Chun, tai chi and some other gung fu styles and almost every time I work out with them the first thing that comes to my mind is that they are very open to low kicks to the knees, hips and lower legs ie. ankles shins and top of the feet, basically any of the Sin Moo kicks,, numbers 1 thru 4 seems to work very well against these styles, my wing chun buddies trap my arms as I enter but in doing so their legs are very vulnerable,, and they are pretty good at wing chun,, also my tai chi friends who I have learned from put a lot of weight on their lead leg, much like boxers do and when you enter with a hand or arm technique their legs are their just waiting for a low kick,, I am not saying all of this like I am some great fighter I just think it is something I have noticed time and time again, kind of a characteristic of their stances, I do have great respect for the chninese arts and I am not slamming them but low kicks work and that is a definate IMHO. Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 11:19:36 -0400 From: bredfield Subject: [The_Dojang] RE:Fred's Question on the kwans Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ((((((. These kata are also practiced in Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do. I later found out there is Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do also. Why is this? Fred))))))) Well Fred to give it to you in a nutshell without trying to start a war, I will put it this way. Back when the Tae Kwan Do movement was starting and the Gov. was pushing everyone to join up, GM Hwang Kee of the Moo Duk Kwan(TSD) did not want to become part of the TKD movement, some high ranking members did though, and there was a split in the Moo Duk Kwan, with the members wishing to be with TKD leaving and forming the Moo Duk Kwan TKD, any other D-D ers wish to add please feel free : ) Bernard Tang Soo Do Hapkido --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Dana Vaillancourt" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 17:50:35 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Moo Duk Kwan emblem Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray. The colors such as black or blue [depending upon affiliation] also have meaning as you are no doubt aware, as the more obvious with the Hangul. Dana > >What other info can you add about the Moo Duk Kwan emblem? _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Laurie S." To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 14:12:33 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido/Chin Na Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray wrote: <<<>>> Yes, Ray. I did Hapkido (mixed with my TSD training). Now I'm learning Chin Na self defense mixed into TKD. And yes, I do agree about the foot work thing. I learned a lot of foot work with Hapkido, but there is hardly any with Chin Na. But, since I was used to the foot work, I still use it with Chin Na. It doesn't seem to stop the technique from working. In fact, I think it works better with foot work (for me anyways). Laurie Green belt TKD (5th gup TSD) _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 14:10:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] 3rd high Dan promotions Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net fyi... The 3rd High Dan TKD Promotion Test 2002 (6th thru 9th Dan) will be held on Sept 7, 2002 at the Kukkiwon. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang), policedo@martialartsresource.net (Policedo) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 16:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Richard Bustillo Seminar in Calgary Sept 14, 15 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarded message: Boxing/Muay Thai Saturday Morning @ 9 A.M. to 11:30 A.M. Offense/defense/counter drills on Boxing and Muay Thai techniques. Understand knee/elbow/punch/kick techniques with Thai pads for self defense and sport. Cacoy Doce Pares Eskrima Saturday Afternoon @ 1 P.M. to 3:30 PM Bring double stick and single stick for training drills for Pangamot (empty hand), Agaw (disarming), Dumog (grappling), and Pormas (forms). Dangerous edge weapon awareness. Jujitsu/Wrestling Sunday Morning @ 9 A.M. to 11:30 A.M. Learn basic standing and ground grappling. Sense body positioning for escapes and defense. Recognize submission holds, locking drills, reverses and counters. Jeet Kune Do:Sunday Afternoon @ 1 P.M. to 3:30 P.M. Learn Bruce Lee's basic footwork, hand/foot speed to closing the gap to trapping and grappling. Understand training concepts to enhance the three combat ranges above. Fee: $ 150.00/Pre-registration by 9/7/02 $ 200.00.00/Door fee, $ 85.00/per day in advance CONTACT: Gil LaFantaisie (403) 280-8787 black_dragon_karate@hotmail.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang), policedo@martialartsresource.net (Policedo) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 18:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Sport TKD Calendar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The_Dojang's calendar of Sport Taekwondo Events Sept 1, 2002 http://MartialArtsResource.com http://the-dojang.net Dates and locations subject to change. 2002 6th Asian TKD Federation Champs Sept 6-7 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Carolina Open Sept 7 Rock Hill, South Carolina ITF Battle of the Belts Sept 7 Springfield, Missouri ITF Queensland Champs Sept 8 Bundaberg, Queensland, Aus ITF PanAm Cup Sept 9-13 Quebec, Canada Tae Kuk Mu Sul TKD Gold Cup Sept 14 Sacramento, California Southern Highlands Champs Sept 14 Moss Vale, Australia 1st Las Vegas Open Sept 14 Las Vegas, Nevada Texas A&M Invitational Sept 14 College Station, Texas 22nd Michigan Invitational Sept 21 Dearborn, Michigan Sun Valley TKD Sept 21 Sun Valley, Idaho NC AAU Fall Classic Sept 21 Fayetteville, North Carolina ITF Arizona Open Sept 21 Phoeniz, Arizona Friendship Tourny Sept 21 San Francisco, California Mid-American Junior Invitational Sept 28 Oxford, Ohio Poos Brothers Sport TKD Sept 28 Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 10th Polish Games Sept 28-29 Poznam, Poland ITF Artic Cup Sept 28-29 Tromsoe, Norway 4th World Junior TKD Champs Oct 1-6 Hiraklion, Crete, Greece United ITF Australian Champs Oct 4-5 Melbourne, Australia Colonial TKD Festival Oct 5 Williamsburg, Virginia GTF USTF Tourny Oct 5 Shreveport, Louisiana ITF USTF Region 1 Champs Oct 5 Las Vegas, Nevada United ITF Australasian Oct 5-6 Auckland, New Zealand Best of the Best Oct 6 Pennsauken, New Jersey 13th Pan-Am TKD Champs Oct 9-12 Quito, Ecuador 14th Asian Games Oct 10-13 Busan, Korea 2002 Master Instructor Licensing Oct 11-12 Dallas, Texas 16th US Martial Arts Champs Oct 12 Youngstown, Ohio 29th Annual TKD Champs Oct 12 Kansas City, Kansas 2nd Maine Open Oct 12 Portland, Maine 2nd International Champs Oct 17-20 New Delhi, India Austrailia Nationals Oct 18-20 Carrara, Qld., Australia Dutch Open Oct 19 Kerkrade, Netherlands BUTF ITF British Open Oct 19 London, England ITF-ATFI Texas Invitational Oct 19 Odessa, Texas ITF TAG Tourny Oct 19 Gelsenkirchen, Germany ITF Yom Chi National Oct 19 Pasco, Washington US Gold Cup Oct 19 West Chester, Ohio 22nd Tekno Ft. Worth Intl Oct 19-20 Ft. Worth, Texas 1st Electrolux ITF Australasian Oct 19-20 Sydney, Australia 1st Swedish Open Oct 19-20 Malmo, Sweden 14th World Military TKD Games Oct 22-25 Ft. Hood, Texas Silicon Valley Open Oct 26 San Jose, California Lee's Invitational Oct 26 Canberra, Australia National Collegiate Champs Nov 1-2 Puerto Rico GTF USTF Tourny Nov 2 Harrison, Arkansas OAKMASD TKD Championship Nov 2 Ft. Belvoir, Virginia 10th Toulouse Open Nov 2-3 Toulouse, France 6th World Junior ITF Champs Nov 7-11 Buenos Aires, Argentina Western Intl Champs Nov 9 Las Vegas, Nevada BSU Open Nov 9 Boise, Idaho Mid-Atlantic TKD Nov 9 Winston-Salem, N. Carolina Garden State Nov 11 Rahway, New Jersey US National Han Ma Dang Nov 16 TBD ITF Goodwill Champs Nov 16 Bridgeport, Connecticut ETU Solidarity Nov 22-24 Minsk, Belarus 19th Central American Games Nov 28-Dec 1 San Salvador, El Salvador ITF World Junior Champs Dec 1-8 Ponce, Puerto Rico USTF Winter Nationals Dec 6-7 Hot Springs, Arkansas 2nd Senador Cup Dec 8 Arecibo, Puerto Rico 18th Boeskool Trophy Dec 14 Oldenzall, Netherlands 2003 11th Pan Arab Games TBD Algeria Australian Olympic Youth Festival Jan 8-12 Sydney, Australia Master Choi Cup Down Under Jan 19 Melbourne, Australia Indiana Open Jan Indianapolis, Indiana US Open Feb 19-23 Las Vegas, Nevada 1st PROTAE-ITF Puerto Rico Open Feb 21-23 Arecibo, Puerto Rico ITF Italian Open March 1-2 Riccione, Italy Indy Cup March 15 Indianapolis, Indiana 1st Paris Open March 15-16 Paris, France ITF Intl FITE Open March 16 Madrid, Spain 1st Technical Paris Open March 22-23 Paris, France Moja Kwan Invitational March 29 Roswell, Georgia 2nd Pan Am Junior March Rio de Janeiro, Brazil South Carolina State Champs March Rock Hill, South Carolina ITF North American Champs April Ottawa, Canada 29th US National TKD Champs May 21-25 New Orleans, Louisana 14th European Junior TKD Champs May Athens, Greece 13th World ITF Seniors June 12-15 Warsaw, Poland ITF Chi Cup Open June 14 Punto Fijo, Venezuela USTU Junior Nationals June 28-July 5 Orlando, Florida 12th South Pacific Games June 28-July 12 Suva, Fiji European Technical Champs June France AAU Nationals June-July Knoxville, Tennessee 14th Pan American Games Aug 1-17 Santo Domingo, Dominican Rep USTU National Team Trials Aug 24-25 Colorado Springs, Colorado 3rd World Military Games Aug-Sept Madrid, Spain 9th Women's World TKD Champs Sept 22-28 Garmisch, Germany 16th World TKD Champs Sept 22-28 Garmisch, Germany 22nd World University Games Sept 24-28 Taegu, Korea 22nd Southeast Asian Games Oct HoChiMinh City, Vietnam World Quals for Athens Dec Paris, France Olympic Games TKD Test Event Dec-Feb Athens, Greece 8th African Champs or early 2004 Accra, Ghana 2004 European Champs for Teams Feb Grenoble, France Olympic Test Event March Athens, Greece 13th Women's European Senior TKD May 4-9 Lillehammer, Norway 15th European Senior TKD Champs May 4-9 Lillehammer, Norway 8th World University Champs June 1-3 Patra, Greece 2004 Olympic Games Aug 26-29 Athens, Greece 2005 4th East Asian Games TBD Macao, China ITF Senior World Champs TBD Uzbekistan 23rd Universiade July 16-26 Izmir, Turkey 2006 15th Asian Games Dec 11-14 Doha, Qatar Please submit updates and corrections. Ray Terry California Taekwondo and Hapkido http://MartialArtsResource.com The_Dojang, the Internet's discussion forum for Korean Martial Arts http://the-dojang.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest