Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 21:19:06 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #423 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Re: Taekwondo in the ROK army (barends@gbugroep.nl) 2. kwans (freddie bishop) 3. tsd/tkd (freddie bishop) 4. master demosnstrations (freddie bishop) 5. Labor Day (Ray Terry) 6. Re: tsd/tkd (Ray Terry) 7. Re: Training Journal (wrowlands) 8. dobok (freddie bishop) 9. Typhoon Rusa (Ray Terry) 10. Mao Yak Yan - Any infor on it? (Vave Samasoni) 11. Re: hapkido and china (S. H. WEE) 12. [Eskrima] Filipino Martial Tradition (fwd) (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 09:51:42 +0200 From: barends@gbugroep.nl To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Taekwondo in the ROK army Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > “Taekwondo is not as effective as other martial arts as a self-defence > (method…” > (Self-defense incorrectly spelled) > then why would the military of ROK be teaching the Taekwon Do techniques and > not solely use Hapkido or some other martial art ? A one week training in which the recruits learn some basic kicking. After this week they have to spar with a fellow recruite, and they receive a first dan in taekwondo. Oh glory. BTW. could you please replay without first repeating the entire message, and use plain text only? Thnx -- kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ (NEW) --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 06:20:51 -0700 (PDT) From: freddie bishop To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] kwans Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Terry Master Chung taught us a style similar to Shotokan. I have never practiced Shotokan karate but from all my years of reading and observing Shotokan, there is a striking resemblance to the Tae Kwon Do I learned. Fred __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 06:51:39 -0700 (PDT) From: freddie bishop To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] tsd/tkd Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jack- From my observations, Tang Soo Do uses deeper stances, Tae Kwon Do uses higher stances to facilitate more mobility for the purpose of competition. Tae Kwon Do seems to focus mainly on one punching technique, a ort of straight punch delivered from the shoulder or chest level. Tang Soo Do uses all sorts of punching techniques. In the Tae Kwon Do class, we don't practice knifehand strikes, elbow strikes, or side kicks. Tang Soo Do classes they do. Fred 5th gup __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 06:56:02 -0700 (PDT) From: freddie bishop To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] master demosnstrations Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To All What was the best demonstration your Master instructor ever gave? Fred __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima), the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 07:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Labor Day Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Wishing all those in the US an unlabored Labor Day tomorrow. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] tsd/tkd To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 07:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From my observations, Tang Soo Do uses deeper > stances, Tae Kwon Do uses higher stances to facilitate > more mobility for the purpose of competition. Tae Kwon > Do seems to focus mainly on one punching technique, a > ort of straight punch delivered from the shoulder or > chest level. Tang Soo Do uses all sorts of punching > techniques. In the Tae Kwon Do class, we don't > practice knifehand strikes, elbow strikes, or side > kicks. Tang Soo Do classes they do. As you journey though your Taekwondo adventure you'll find that TKD can vary greatly from dojang to dojang. What you describe above, wrt TKD, is frequently not the case... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 10:48:46 -0400 From: wrowlands To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Training Journal Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>>>"I'd be interested in taking a look at that as well. I used to keep one when I ran long distance. For me, it helped my focus and quantified my progress ... or lack thereof. Regards, Will" send me your address, will :) take care, melinda<<<< Thanks Melinda but I don't want to put you out unnecessarily. I thought perhaps you were talking about something you did up in Excel or Word, or whatever. I didn't realize it was a commercial product. As it turns out, I'm at the same TKD school as one of the people to whom you're sending the journal. I'll make note of the web address in case people want to order some. Thanks again for your kindness, Will --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 15:44:54 -0700 (PDT) From: freddie bishop To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] dobok Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To all What brand of dobok do you wear?. I'm looking into Pine Tree brand fold over jacket as well as the V neck jacket. Fred __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 18:01:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Typhoon Rusa Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Typhoon Rusa Batters Nation September 1, 2002 Typhoon Rusa ripped through South Korea over the weekend, leaving at least 80 people dead or missing from raging floodwaters and landslides. The number of casualties is expected to soar as the damage toll is updated every hour. The storm, this years worst, brought torrential downpours and gusts, especially in the eastern swathes of the country as well as the already flood-ravaged southern regions. Notably, the eastern coastal city of Gangneung suffered the worst damage, with a record of 870.5 mm of rains on Saturday alone, the largest daily precipitation since official meteorological observations began. The entire city was virtually devastated, with scenes reminiscent of a war zone. Buildings and walls were destroyed by landslides and gusts, lamp poles were blown down and trees were uprooted. The city with 220,000 inhabitants was swamped by waist-high swirling waters and plunged into darkness, as destructive winds knocked out power. It was virtually cut off, because major roads and communication services were unavailable. Thousands of panicked residents were forced to spend sleepless nights in public facilities after being ordered to evacuate their low-lying homes. Storm-inflicted damage was not limited to the city in Gangwon Province. The super typhoon, this years 15th, dumped 200-700mm of rains on Jeolla, Gyeongsang and Chungcheong, while marching northeastwards after hitting land at Goheung, South Jeolla Province, Saturday evening. Authorities said more than 10,000 houses were swamped across the country, while hundreds of thousands of households were experienced power blackouts. Train service was halted between Daejeon and Daegu as heavy rains flooded an approximately 300-meter-section of the railway near Daejeon. It was the second time for floods to disrupt the nations railways. Major roads, including the Gyeongbu and Yeongdong expressways, were also closed, partially paralyzing the key traffic networks. Almost all domestic flights and ferry services were cancelled, although they started to return to normal on Sunday afternoon, when the typhoon moved away from the peninsula. The typhoon also caused landslides that buried scores of cars in Gangwon and Jeolla provinces, and strong winds damaged the roof of the World Cup Stadium in Seogwipo. However, it inflicted relatively little damage upon Seoul, Incheon and surrounding Gyeonggi Province, which have recently been subjected to floods. The government immediately vowed to make every effort to aid the recovery effort, including manpower and financial support. The military also mobilized several thousand soldiers, along with excavators and dump trucks. A separate tropical storm, named Sinlaku, has been observed in the Pacific, raising fears of another weather nightmare. --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Vave Samasoni" To: Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 13:14:50 +1100 Subject: [The_Dojang] Mao Yak Yan - Any infor on it? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi there, Have been reading your discussions with interest for quite some time. Since I'm quite comparatively new to the martial arts (in practising it) I thought I would learn better by reading from you guys' discussions. I have a question of my own this time, however. I have heard of this club which practises the Martial art of Mao Yak Yan, and I would like to know more about it, it's history, etc. I can't seem to find any website on it. Does anyone out there have any info on this art? Thanks in advance, vave --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "S. H. WEE" To: Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 10:33:57 +0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: hapkido and china Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Michael, I agree with you that a lot of Chinese based martial artists are open to low kicks. However, I don't think it has anything to do with the arts, but rather the practitioners themself. As in most case in Taekwondo or Hapkido practitioners, they spent most of their time practising with partners from the same art which utilised very little low kicks and thus, are not accustom to it. Same thing happened at my country, most of the Silat practitioners I came across usually quite vulnerable to head shots. At least for the initial few preactice sessions and the typical Taekwondo guys do not hold themselve very well against sweeps. Anyway, I would appreciate it very much if you can tell me more about the Chinna drills. S. H. Wee shinhoe@pc.jaring.my > Message: 5 > From: "michael tomlinson" > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 14:54:38 +0000 > Subject: [The_Dojang] hapkido and china > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > I have a ton of info and video's on Chi-na,, I have also noticed what Ray > talks about,, the techniques are VERY close to Hapkido but the footwork is > almost non existent, not even close to what Hapkido teaches, they do have > some awesome drills to develop hand speed and grabbing power, no disrespect > intended to anyone but I have noticed that a lot of chinese based martial > arts are very stiff legged in application, I have friends who do Wing Chun, > tai chi and some other gung fu styles and almost every time I work out with > them the first thing that comes to my mind is that they are very open to low > kicks to the knees, hips and lower legs ie. ankles shins and top of the > feet, basically any of the Sin Moo kicks,, numbers 1 thru 4 seems to work > very well against these styles, my wing chun buddies trap my arms as I enter > but in doing so their legs are very vulnerable,, and they are pretty good at > wing chun,, also my tai chi friends who I have learned from put a lot of > weight on their lead leg, much like boxers do and when you enter with a hand > or arm technique their legs are their just waiting for a low kick,, I am not > saying all of this like I am some great fighter I just think it is something > I have noticed time and time again, kind of a characteristic of their > stances, I do have great respect for the chninese arts and I am not slamming > them but low kicks work and that is a definate IMHO. > Michael Tomlinson --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 21:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] [Eskrima] Filipino Martial Tradition (fwd) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarding. Of possible interest... Filipino Martial Tradition, by Pedro Reyes Rapid Journal Vol 4, No 1, 1999 Taichi Works Publications 458 Jaboneros St. Binondo Manila 1006 I hear that on the Internet, there is acrimonious debate on questions such as who is the arnisador whom Gran Maestro Antonio Ilustrisimo appointed as his successor, who should continue the line of Edgar Sulite, who is the real representative of Pekiti-Tersia? I can only shake my head in amused disbelief. To a traditional arnisador, such questions are non-questions. The controversies arise because some martial artists who know the Chinese or Japanese martial arts try to force the tradition of arnis to fit the molds of those styles. But the tradition of arnis is different. Arnis is a Military Art, not Civilian Legend asserts that monks and civilians developed Kung Fu and Karate. There are many variations to those legends. In one, monks hardened their hands so that they could chop wood for fire because they could not carry bladed instruments. They extended their discovery to develop external Kung Fu for self-defense. In Okinawa, civilians also hardened their hands and feet, and use agricultural implements to defend themselves against marauding Japanese soldiers. That is the origin of Karate, legend says, And Taoist monks developed internal Kung Fu to integrate mind and body. How about Arnis? Here, there are no records, there are legends. But we can make educated inferences. The first clue is the name of the art, Arnis de Mano. Arnis seems to be a corruption of the Spanish word "arnes", which means mail armor. Mail is flexible armor made of overlapping metal rings, loops of chain, or scales, such as those worn by European knights in the Middle Ages. Arnis de Mano thus literally means armor with the hands and alludes to the reputed ability of the arnisador to defend himself with his hands and alludes to the reputed ability of the arnisador to defend himself with his hands as though he had put on an armor of mail. Another clue to the military character of arnis is that arnisadores train with weapons before they train with bare hands. Why? No soldier goes to war with empty hands. He fights with weapons first, and uses his bare hands only as a last resort. In contrast, Kung Fu, Karate, Judo practitioners betray their civilian origins by starting with empty hands. Arnis Adapts to Civilian Weapons But when the Spaniards occupied the Philippines, they abolished the warrior class. They forbade the Filipinos from carrying their beloved spears, kampilans, and blowguns. They banned archery. But Filipinos could still carry the riding or whipping stick with which to drive their cows, carabaos and horses. They could walk around town with canes or walking sticks even if they were not elderly. Farmers could strap a utility bolo around their waists before stepping out of the house. Any farmer or townsman could conceal a dagger or a knife around his person. And of course, a man, or woman, always had his hands and feet. Arnisadores now concentrated their techniques around those five classes of weapons. They no longer practiced archery, used the blowgun, and they eventually forgot their techniques for those weapons. Of course, the arnisadores would also use other weapons if they were the only ones available, such as the hand scythe, the pestle, or the carrying pole. But they retained the military character of arnis. Arnisadores still began their training with weapons and the teaching remained impersonal. Arnis is Tribal, not Familial What do I mean by "impersonal?". The unit of ancient Filipino society is the barangay. A barangay is composed of several families which were not always related to one another. The number of dedicated warriors in a barangay was probably small. So every able-bodied man had to be able to defend the barangay. Thus arnis masters would teach any able-bodied man in the barangay regardless of the man's family. In contrast, ancient Chinese and Japanese masters considered their martial arts as family heirlooms, to be used to defend the family of to enhance its prestige. So they confined - or tried to confine - their instruction to members of their clan. For example: Formerly only members of the Ch'en family could learn Tai Chi Chuan until Yang Lu-ch'an broke the monopoly. Only the Takeda family and their retainers could learn Aiki-jutsu. At present, even the Kano family tries to keep control of judo even though instruction is not confined to the Kano family and is open to any one. In those styles, the titles of student, master, grandmaster, great grandmaster, and so on reflect those of the family, son, father, grandfather, great grandfather, etc. The master becomes the second father who can interfere in the most intimate details of the life of the student to an extent unknown to the arnisador. Each Arnis Master is Sui Generis Kung Fu students avidly seek geneological charts of their styles because that is how they establish their legitimacy. In figure 1, I have created a chart of the genesis of the Antonio Ilustrisimo style in imitation of the Chinese. (Notice that Gran Maestro Ilustrisimo has only his father as his teacher. In my conversations with him, he vehemently insisted that he learned only from his father, never from his famous uncle, Melecio Ilustrisimo, nor from Pedro Cortez, whose technique he considered inferior to his own.) But the classical arnisadores pay only scant attention to charts like this. For the classical arnis master stands in his own abilities. He is not a master because he has received a certificate from a school, or because he has been appointed successor by a grandmaster. He is sui generis. Arnisadores prefer teachers who shine by their own light, like the sun rather than planets that shine by the reflected light of their school or master. That is why arnisadores like Remy Presas and Edgar Sulite claim to have created their own styles, rather than to have inherited them. When a student first approaches a traditional master, the master may say, "Yes, I will teach you the little that I know." He would then demonstrate his abilities and if the student likes it, he would stay for more instruction. What the classical master will not say is, "Yes, I will teach you because I'm the 10th degree master of Rabid Dog Arnis" or "The grandmaster of Howling Devil Arnis appointed me as his successor." Such boasts are the product of a later, crasser, more commercial age. Incidentally, masters from the north are more apt to be self-depracating while masters from the south are more prone to boast. This is due to social convention and personal dynamics and has little to do with actual ability. But in a century of hard sell, this could be one reason why Arnis from the south is spreading throughout the world, while Arnis from the north remains in the shadows. A Student Becomes a Master But in that case, does an arnis student become a master? Does he promote himself? Strange as it may seem to a Chinese of to a Japanese stylist, the answer tin traditional Arnis is "yes". The traditional arnisador begins to teach when he feels he is ready to teach, not when his master tells him so. For the traditional master will never give him a teaching certificate, much less appoint him as his successor, no matter how able the student is. That for a simple reason. Once an arnisador starts to teach, he is open to life-and-death challenges. A master who gives a teaching certificate to a student, or appoints him as successor, effectively signs the death warrant for that student. No master likes that responsibility. (A Minor factor that may inhibit the master would be his loss of prestige should the student fail the challenge). Suppose the student wants to teach, but the master thinks he is not ready. The dynamics of Philippine society decides what the master would do. He is likely to remain silent, although in rare cases he might tell the student not to teach. He might also express his doubts to a few intimate friends, but those friends are not likely to pass these to his student. Thus the new master would go on teaching blissfully unaware of the misgivings of his teacher. There are arnisadores who have become famous masters without taking lessons. Pedro Walis of Iloilo was one; he claimed to have learned arnis simply by watching other masters practice and teach. Arnis Tradition is Open Certificates of proficiency, appointments of representatives of a style, selection of successors, are contemporary phenomena, products of masters who wish to commercialize their skills. Many of those masters have studied Japanese styles and they pattern their ranking after the Japanese; some even call their instructors "dans". For few contemporary students are willing to pay tuition, or put up money for a seminar without a visible token in return, be it a certificate of attendance, a grade diploma to be hung on a wall, or even just a membership card. Contemporary masters can provide those tokens with a free conscience because life-and-death challenges are illegal and are now rare. Is this the end of a classical tradition and the end of a new one? Perhaps. For unlike the Chinese or the Japanese, Arnis tradition is open. Arnis masters are not afraid. This is due to the military origin of Arnis. In war, one utilizes even alien techniques if they are effective. The first radical change in the nature of Arnis occurred when the Spanish abolished the warrior class and prohibited the use of their weapons. The Arnis masters reacted by concentrating their techniques on the weapons now legally available to civilians. These are the riding stick, the walking cane, the utility bolo, and the hand knife. At the same time, a branch of arnis that many aspire to learn but only a handful can master became Christianized. I refer to esoteric Arnis. The arnisadores now directed their attention to the Christian pantheon. Curiously, the arnisador sometimes found himself using the names of the old gods to address the gods of the Christians without losing the effectiveness of his oracion In many cases, the changes were not too traumatic. For example, the arnisadores simply moved the great days of initiation into the oraciones of the Moon Goddess to the days of lent and to All Souls Day. As for the celebrations of the Earth God - Christmas became one of them, leaving only the summer initiations without Christian equivalents. Incidentally, arnisadores prefer to offer themselves to the Goddess. A traditional practice, for example, is to drill during the nights of the moon to seek favor, protection and strength of the Great Mother. Next, the Spanish friars introduced the komedya and asked the arnisadores to choreograph the mock battles. Arnis masters responded by creating a new style, or branch of arnis, exhibition or theatrical arnis. Present day masters who coach cinematic actors are heirs to this branch. The third change occurred when promoters introduced sports tournaments. Sports Arnis was developed from competition without protection to one where the competitors protect themselves with armor. The rules for this new branch or arnis are still evolving, but already arnisadores have created techniques specially tuned to sports. The fourth change is the one we have been discussing: the awards of certificates of proficiency by commercial gymnasia. This is no longer classical arnis. Commercial Arnis? To some, that sounds derogatory, but need not be. Competition for students can improve quality, although it could propel arnis the wrong way among unscrupulous masters hungry for money. Some masters are caught in the transition to this "new tradition." Grandmaster Antonio Ilustrisimo believed that certificates were worthless, so that he did not rank his intimate disciples. Nevertheless, he cynically issued certificates when he needed money, or to silence disciples who pestered him for them And in the future? I would like to see arnis maestros with intelligence and guts enough to integrate modern gun fighting into arnis. Some arnisadores would like to re-introduce archery, spear throwing, and blowguns, but I consider that a backward step. People do not fight with bows and arrows, shields and spears, and blowguns anymore. They fight with guns. A Different Enlightenment If you were to challenge me to write in a few words the essence of Arnis, what would I say? Arnis is the search for one's unique self. Who am I? If you are an arnisador, you begin by imitating a teacher. Then you find that the only way you can master the techniques is to make them your own, adapting them to your own build, temperament, and reflexes. Now go back and forth between those two states, the conditioned and the unconditioned consciousness, until you realize that your self has always been and is always free. Then shout in exultant freedom. The martial artist who is Buddhist awakens the non-attached heart; the Taoist, the harmonious heart. The arnisador enjoys the free, creative unconditioned heart. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest