Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 13:33:04 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #425 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: training journal (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 2. Re: Dobok (Klaas Barends) 3. Re: (Beungood@aol.com) 4. Gathering list (J T) 5. RE:Teaching Approaches? (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 6. TKD MDK (Cliff.Vaught@pmusa.com) 7. Mr/Dr and all that (Cliff.Vaught@pmusa.com) 8. Hmmm... telekinesis? (Atchinson, Kerry M) 9. UK Martial Artists (Rich) 10. Mr. Moo Young Kang in San Diego (J.R. West) 11. Re: RE:Teaching Approaches? (JW) 12. Re: TKD MDK (JW) 13. Re: TKD MDK (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 00:09:28 -0400 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: training journal Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Thanks Melinda but I don't want to put you out unnecessarily. (...)Thanks again for your kindness, Will" honestly, will, its no trouble. as i've said in the past, i got into this business because i got tired of paying too much for my own gear. i'm now in a position where i can help out friends and associates. i'm not going to go broke or have to refrain from sending my daughter to college some day because of the training diary :). i'm glad to do it, although i do appreciate your consideration in your reply. i'd still be happy to send you one if you'd like. take care, melinda :) --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 12:24:47 +0200 From: Klaas Barends To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Dobok Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > All of my uniforms are from Moo Sool Sa. A lot of IHF practitioners I > know have their uniforms custom made with the very wide pants legs. I > really like their tailoring. To bad you can't get them that cheap any more. About 6 or 7 years ago I would buy my doboks in Korea for about 20 euro ($20). Now they cost me 36 euro's in Korea. Recently I imported 100 doboks from Korea, with shipping and tax they end up costing 50 euro and I don't even make profit :( Of course 50 euro for a handmade dobok is still a reasonable price. Anyone interested in a handmade dobok? I still got some :) -- Kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 07:12:20 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net 
A freind is moving to Missouri and wants to start training in Hapkido.Can  
Anyone reccommend a good  dojang or two he can visit?

--__--__--

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 06:42:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: J T 
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Subject: [The_Dojang] Gathering list
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

I just received a list of some of the instructors that
will be teaching at the Gathering this year:

Areia Kevin          Kosho Ryu
Babcock Dan          Kenpo
Basquez Jaime        Kajukenbo
Bonjoc Jr. Carlito   Escrima
Brown Michael        Kosho Ryu
Burnham Mark         Kosho Ryu
Burton Michael       Cerio Kenpo
Cabales Vincent      Escrima
Cook Bob             Goju Ryu
Cooley Toby          Liu Hap Ba Fa
Cyrus Ian            Choson Do
DeAlba Michael       Farang Mu Sul
DiSarro Tony         Kosho Ryu
Driscol Jeff         Kosho Ryu
Erlandson Ray        Kenpo
Felson Scott         Chi Ling Pai
Gavin Glenn          Taekwon Do
Gentile Rick         Bukti Negera
Hamilton John        Shorin Ryu
Hoe Robert           Kempo
Jordan Don           Kenpo
Juchnik Bruce        Kosho Ryu
Kelly Pat            Kosho Ryu
Krazberger Larry     Kosho Ryu
Langdon Bernie       Silat
Long Carl            Iaijutsu
LoPriore David       Kosho Ryu
Ludwig Jon           Kosho Ryu
Martin Todd          Kempo
Mazza Keith          Wing Chun
McCallum John        Kosho Ryu
Moy Michael          Kung Fu
Okazaki-Mullins Imi  Danzan Ryu
Petronelli Richard   Jujitsu
Rodriguez Jesus      Okinawan Kempo
Sanchez Frank        San Jitsu
Santana George       Escrima
Sheeley Mark         Cerio Kenpo
Simms Andre          Kenpo
Stigall Randy        Hapkido
Treche Tony          Shotokan
Wilmott Rick         Kosho Ryu
Yamaguchi Paul       Kosho Ryu
Yglesias Jason       Jujitsu
Young Mike           Gung Fu
Zayner Tony          Tai Chi



__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 5
From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 08:41:50 -0500 
Subject: [The_Dojang] RE:Teaching Approaches?
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Dear Joel: 

"...Which program would suit you best depends upon where you will be living 
in the county and where you will be working....." 

Thanks for the interesting run down on instructors in your area. I notice
that you mention that a couple of the instructors have "limited access" to
their classes. Is there a way you would characterize their material or
teaching approaches? By this I mean that most Hapkido teachers who teach in
a public forum are constantly adjusting their curriculum to garner the
largest number of students. Usually this seems to include watrering the
curriculum down and softening the techniques. I would be curious to know
what approach these teachers take with their material that keeps the
students coming back for more. Somehow I don't see it as just being
"exacting".  Any thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce 

--__--__--

Message: 6
From: Cliff.Vaught@pmusa.com
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 09:47:21 -0400 
Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD MDK
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

> From:	Vaught, Cliff 
> Sent:	Tuesday, September 03, 2002 9:16 AM
> To:	'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'
> Subject:	RE: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #421 - 8 msgs
> 
> Fred,
> I'll take a stab at this.  I am a member of the Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan
> and have read GM Hwang Kee's History of the Moo Duk Kwan.  In the late
> fifties, early sixties, there was a unification movement in Korea.  I
> believe General Choi led the movement and in his position in the military
> and due to the political climate of the time, a lot of pressure was
> exerted on the kwans to go along with it.  GM Hwang Kee resisted the
> unification, winning the right to maintain an autonomous organization from
> the Supreme Court of Korea.  However, many of his senior Dans left him
> under the pressure that was exerted on them by the government.  There are
> folks here in the states that teach TKD however they teach the MDK hyungs
> as opposed to ITF or WTF hyung.  
> 
> I believe I have remembered the text correctly  - it is my understanding
> of what happened.
> 
> Cliff Vaught
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net
> [SMTP:the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net]
> Sent:	Saturday, August 31, 2002 6:02 AM
> To:	the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
> Subject:	The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #421 - 8 msgs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  The original kwans were spread all over Korea, right?
> All the schools practiced something different, right?
> Does anyone know what the differences were or are.
> Have those differences been lost to extinction?
>  My instructor, Master Young Chul Chung, formerly of
> Kokomo, IN taught Palagae poomse, at the purple belt
> level, which was after brown belt, he required his
> students to learn Japanese kata such as Bassai,
> Nahanchi, and Pinan. These kata are also practiced in
> Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do. I later found out there is
> Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do also. Why is this?
> 
>                              Fred

--__--__--

Message: 7
From: Cliff.Vaught@pmusa.com
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 09:48:58 -0400 
Subject: [The_Dojang] Mr/Dr and all that
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

> I agree with Alain.  It is the arrogance of academia where the educated
> and educators insist on title.  Mr. and Dr. both happen to apply to Un
> Yong Kim - whereas General and Private are mutually exclusive - therefore
> it is NOTHING like Mr./Dr.  Of course it is always advisable to use the
> preferred title - if you happen to know it.  And can we now dismiss this
> topic?
> 
> Cliff Vaught
> 
> Russell MacLellan Wrote:
> "Mr. Chang Ung's claim in recent meetings with Mr. Un Yong Kim ..."
> ===
> Gordon wrote:
> Actually, its Dr. Un Yong Kim...This is like calling General Choi "Private
> Choi".
> ===
> Alain Burrese wrote:
> "Actually, no.  Calling someone Mister rather than Doctor is nothing like
> calling someone Private rather than General."
> ==
> 
> In this situation, (we are talking about Taekwondo right?) the level of
> disrepect being shown is the same.  You would never never refer to
> "general
> choi" as "private choi" because its disrepectful, (and its not his title)
> for the same reason Dr. Un Yong Kim is reffered to as Dr. not Mr.
> 
> gordon

--__--__--

Message: 8
From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" 
To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'"
  
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 11:10:40 -0500 
Subject: [The_Dojang] Hmmm... telekinesis?
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

From: "Jeremy" 
To: 
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 01:29:48 -0500
Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: master demosnstrations
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

What was the best demonstration your Master
instructor ever gave?

The one where Master Kim would slowly slide a paper cup across the table
without touching it was pretty wild. I've seen it, I still don't believe it.

Jeremy

That would be truly cool. Can you give a more detailed description for us
sceptical types?  Was it just precisely-controlled hand movements and air
pressure moving the cup?  Static electricity?  What's the physical
explanation?

Kerry
WTF TKD

--__--__--

Message: 9
From: "Rich" 
To: 
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 17:50:26 +0100
Subject: [The_Dojang] UK Martial Artists
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Hi all,

Just wondering how many of you are from the UK (like myself) and also, which
style do you study and where...

Regards.

Rich.

--__--__--

Message: 10
From: "J.R. West" 
To: "Dojang Digest" 
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 12:05:40 -0500
Subject: [The_Dojang] Mr. Moo Young Kang in San Diego
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

.  GM Mo Young Kang runs a program in Encinitas, CA

If this is the same Moo Young Kang that I am thinking of,  he is an
excellent HapKiDo practitioner.  I can remember being used as a partner by
Mr. Kang some 30 years ago and was lucky to survive, due to Mr. Kangs being
about 4 ft. 8 in. tall, and my being 6 ft. 4 in.........Things happened
really fast, as I remember...J. R. West    www.hapkido.com

--__--__--

Message: 11
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 12:21:45 -0700
From: JW 
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE:Teaching Approaches?
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Dear Bruce:

First some background - Here in San Diego TKD programs have generally 
been much more successful financially than HKD programs.  This may be 
the result of the best instructor's unwillingness soften their programs. 
 This may arise because the normal give and take of HKD training causes 
a certain level of physical discomfort for students to learn joint 
locks.  As a result, most instructors also run TKD schools - some 
integrate some HKD elements into their TKD classes, some have small 
separate classes for HKD, some teach HKD only as private lessons.  


Grandmaster Moo Young Kang, for example, teaches TKD classes for 
children and Hapkido classes for Adults.  His TKD classes are all at his 
Dojang.  His Hapkido classes are split between the Dojang and two 
government agency office buildings/training facilities (One in Carlsbad, 
one in Chula Vista).  He is probably the most accessible HKD instructor 
in town.  He loves Hapkido and is not willing to compromise his art in 
his instruction.  He truly teaches HKD because he loves it. However, his 
HKD revenue is not sufficient to support him - so he also operates a 
clothing sales business.  He also teaches private and semi-private 
lessons.  During some parts of the year, he travels under contract with 
the DEA to provide HKD training overseas.


Grandmaster Tiger Hong runs a TKD school for revenue, his HKD classes 
are primarily by invitation/on recommendation only.  

Grandmaster Bo Hwa Jeong's school is primarily TKD - HKD is taught 
primarily by private and semi-private lessons to individuals who are at 
least 1st Dan in TKD.

I know that this situation is very unlike that in Orange County or LA 
where there are numerous open programs.  I'm not certain why it is this 
way.  Perhaps it is a result of the raw number of martial arts schools 
in San Diego.  Or perhaps it is an echo of a bad occurrence at a Hapkido 
school here twenty plus years ago when two black belts came into the 
school intoxicated, practiced/sparred without supervision in a practice 
room and one of them died.  Although the school was found to be without 
fault - that school owner stopped teaching..

Back to the focus of your question - Run without a focus on revenue and 
class size, often as a reward for senior students - the instructors are 
able to teach their full curriculums.  Although this can result in some 
very good practitioners, I don't know whether it really serves HKD. 
 Although I enjoy teaching both HKD and TKD it is not, nor is it ever 
likely to be, my full time endeavor.  Truthfully I lack knowledge of how 
to teach HKD to larger group classes in a structured way because I've 
never seen it done.   GM Kangs group classes are small.  I don't think 
I've seen one of his Dojang HKD classes exceed eight students.  This is 
not true of his classes outside of the Dojang, but I have not had the 
opportunity to attend those.  What works for teaching eight is very 
difficult with twenty five or more - large classes of that size and 
larger are common in TKD schools.  That is why I was interested in your 
HKD training journals and have investigated Fariborz Azhakh's teaching 
system.  I would be very interested to hear from any Hapkido 
practitioner and instructors who practice in a large school setting. 
 How are classes run ?  What is the structure for the curriculum ?  Is 
rank advancement based on skill set evaluation or on hours of 
participation ?

I look forward to reading all of your replies.
Respectfully yours,
Joel S. Weissler




Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov wrote:

>Dear Joel: 
>
>"...Which program would suit you best depends upon where you will be living 
>in the county and where you will be working....." 
>
>Thanks for the interesting run down on instructors in your area. I notice
>that you mention that a couple of the instructors have "limited access" to
>their classes. Is there a way you would characterize their material or
>teaching approaches? By this I mean that most Hapkido teachers who teach in
>a public forum are constantly adjusting their curriculum to garner the
>largest number of students. Usually this seems to include watrering the
>curriculum down and softening the techniques. I would be curious to know
>what approach these teachers take with their material that keeps the
>students coming back for more. Somehow I don't see it as just being
>"exacting".  Any thoughts? 
>
>Best Wishes, 
>
>Bruce 
>_______________________________________________
>The_Dojang mailing list
>The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net
>http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang

--__--__--

Message: 12
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 13:07:16 -0700
From: JW 
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] TKD MDK
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Cliff's reply pretty well totes part of the official line.  What it 
leaves out is the amount of positive inducement Gen. Choi was able to 
utilize to get leading masters to relabel their arts.  My original 
instructor was one of GM Kee's first fifty black belts.  Throughout his 
lifetime he maintained good relations with GM Hwang Kee, including his 
affiliation with the Moo Duk Kwan.  For Black belt testing we were 
required to perform TSD, ITF and WTF BB forms.  He became affiliated 
with the General Choi's organization because of the advantages he was 
offered.  For my former instructor, primary amongst those incentives was 
sponsored immigration to the United States.  He was brought here to 
teach a then young 1st Dan, Charles Serreff who he later promoted to 2nd 
Dan.  

Gen. Choi was aided in his quest to unify the Korean martial arts a 
national treasure by the anti- Japanese sentiment then prevalent in 
Korea.  GM Kee's forms were the subject of derision on the basis that 
they were too Japanese.  Even those loyal to the MDK and GM Hwang Kee 
were not immune to the anti-Japanese sentiment.  For instance, although 
my original instructor had learned Nunchuka he would not teach them - 
repeating forcefully that he taught Korean arts and that the Nunchuka 
were Japanese weapons.  This was in spike of his acceptance of Hwang 
Kee's teachings, certain Japanese origin forms, Yudo training and 
willingness to integrate open hand techniques from many arts into his 
teaching

After Gen. Choi had his level of influence in the Korean government 
substantially reduced, there was amongst many instructors a backward 
drift toward either the now in favor WTF approach or the original MDK 
forms.  I was told that many of the Senior masters initially rejected 
the WTF forms because the designers of the forms were junior to 
themselves.  

Differences between kwans are still evident in their descendants who 
have moved to TKD.  Moo Duk Kan for example ordinarily starts each kick 
with the same chamber and often tends towards strong stable stances and 
power strikes, Ji Duk Kwan (sp?) tends to be more upright, focuses on 
being very mobile and fast.  Warm ups tend to be different and breath/ki 
exercises tend to differ between kwans.

I hope this has been helpful -- Joel S. Weissler



Cliff.Vaught@pmusa.com wrote:

>>From:	Vaught, Cliff 
>>Sent:	Tuesday, September 03, 2002 9:16 AM
>>To:	'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'
>>Subject:	RE: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #421 - 8 msgs
>>
>>Fred,
>>I'll take a stab at this.  I am a member of the Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan
>>and have read GM Hwang Kee's History of the Moo Duk Kwan.  In the late
>>fifties, early sixties, there was a unification movement in Korea.  I
>>believe General Choi led the movement and in his position in the military
>>and due to the political climate of the time, a lot of pressure was
>>exerted on the kwans to go along with it.  GM Hwang Kee resisted the
>>unification, winning the right to maintain an autonomous organization from
>>the Supreme Court of Korea.  However, many of his senior Dans left him
>>under the pressure that was exerted on them by the government.  There are
>>folks here in the states that teach TKD however they teach the MDK hyungs
>>as opposed to ITF or WTF hyung.  
>>
>>I believe I have remembered the text correctly  - it is my understanding
>>of what happened.
>>
>>Cliff Vaught
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From:	the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net
>>[SMTP:the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net]
>>Sent:	Saturday, August 31, 2002 6:02 AM
>>To:	the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
>>Subject:	The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #421 - 8 msgs
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The original kwans were spread all over Korea, right?
>>All the schools practiced something different, right?
>>Does anyone know what the differences were or are.
>>Have those differences been lost to extinction?
>> My instructor, Master Young Chul Chung, formerly of
>>Kokomo, IN taught Palagae poomse, at the purple belt
>>level, which was after brown belt, he required his
>>students to learn Japanese kata such as Bassai,
>>Nahanchi, and Pinan. These kata are also practiced in
>>Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do. I later found out there is
>>Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do also. Why is this?
>>
>>                             Fred
>>
>_______________________________________________
>The_Dojang mailing list
>The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net
>http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang

--__--__--

Message: 13
From: Ray Terry 
Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] TKD MDK
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 13:31:29 -0700 (PDT)
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

I mostly agree with Joel.  But would also add that Hwang Kee and Gen. Choi
had at least two things in common.  They both wanted to be in charge...
This, IMHO, was the real reason Gm Hwang didn't want TSD/SBD as part of
TKD.  And also the cause for Gen. Choi being removed from power of the KTA,
and TKD in general.

> Differences between kwans are still evident in their descendants who 
> have moved to TKD.  Moo Duk Kan for example ordinarily starts each kick 
> with the same chamber and often tends towards strong stable stances and 
> power strikes, Ji Duk Kwan (sp?) tends to be more upright, focuses on 
> being very mobile and fast.  Warm ups tend to be different and breath/ki 
> exercises tend to differ between kwans.

I disagree with at least the first part.  The same chamber kick is a feature
of "new TKD", not MDK.  As I MDKer I never saw this until shown this new
way of kicking by a Ji Do Kwan and Chung Do Kwan man.  Actually, it may have
been something from the Ji Do Kwan coach that instructed many of the up-n-
coming players in the late 60s or early 70s.  This was the timeframe of
the switch from the slower traditional power kicks to the faster kicks of 
"new Taekwondo".  Or so I am told...

Ray Terry
rterry@idiom.com


--__--__--

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End of The_Dojang Digest