Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 07:15:06 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #430 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. 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Today's Topics: 1. 2nd Annual Moja Kwan Moo Do Camp (Moja Kwan Tang Soo Do) 2. Hapkido In Philadelphia (JSJohnJr@aol.com) 3. Jeb and Janet (michael tomlinson) 4. Re: Hapkido In Philadelphia (Ray Terry) 5. Re:HKD in Canada (Tracy Rhonda Bodnarchuk) 6. Re: down with Jeb? (Beungood@aol.com) 7. Wraps (Rudy Timmerman) 8. Ki Training (Randall Sexton) 9. Re: FYI: National MA Day - politics (Tom Kennelly) 10. Hwarangdo, Kuksul, Kongshinbeop, Hapkido, etc. (Burdick, Dakin Robert) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Moja Kwan Tang Soo Do" To: Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 21:40:57 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] 2nd Annual Moja Kwan Moo Do Camp Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear All, Updated the online registration page for our annual seminar to reflect Master Terry as a special guest instructor. Go to www.geocities.com/mojakwan/MKMD02.htm for all the details or email me at mojakwan@yahoo.com with your address for a paper flyer. My goal is to pull off a mini version of what GM West does in Jackson, but focoused for TSD/TKD (you know kick punch guys) with some weapons thrown in to make it interesting. Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards www.geocities.com/mojakwan --__--__-- Message: 2 From: JSJohnJr@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 22:16:14 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido In Philadelphia Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Quick question folks: Anyone know of a good Hapkido school in/around the city of Philadelphia....closer to the Defense Supply Center on Robbins Avenue side of town? Thanks. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 02:26:13 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Jeb and Janet Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Actually I am banking on Janet being defeated in the primary by a democrat named Bill McBride,, this guy has some good idea's,, he is very user friendly to teachers and law enforcement and speaks down to earth about the issues,, he is also a Marine Corp. Captain from Vietnam and graduated from the MacV Recondo school in country with one of the highest marks ever given, he is from the Tampa area, I saw him give a talk to some of us teachers in person and I liked what I heard and observed,, hope he beats Reno in the primary and then runs Jeb out of Tallahasse later,, my two cents,, hey I have no problem with Jeb's brothers work so far or his dads but Jeb is not the same kind of leader, he is killing our state IMHO. Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Hapkido In Philadelphia To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 19:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Quick question folks: Anyone know of a good Hapkido school in/around the > city of Philadelphia....closer to the Defense Supply Center on Robbins Avenue > side of town? Thanks. Gm JI Han-jae used to have a dojang in Elkins Park, but he closed it down a short while ago to be able to travel more. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Tracy Rhonda Bodnarchuk" To: Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 20:36:49 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:HKD in Canada Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mark, I don't know Master Yun's Full title All I know is this Master Yun commuted to Edmonton and graded taekwondo out of Derrick Sadlers Club "Precision Martial Arts" . He also taught Hapkido to a Select few students on weekends. As for "FFWWAAPPPing" his students" this Master Yun never hurt his students. The only reason I could give for this is he was tring to get you to focus your "ki" on the area that he was "FFWWAAPPPing" teaching you how to move your "ki" from one area to another. Tracy Edmonton Ab --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 22:43:32 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: down with Jeb? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 9/5/02 10:12:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > I love Martial Arts and I can't stand Jeb as our Gov. of the state of > Florida! I will vote yes for MA's this year and a big no for Jeb come > election day, he has hurt this state more than helped it since he has been > in charge, the problem is that he thinks he is the potentate instead of an > elected official, time to give a big flush in Tallahasee. > Mike, what did he do? Why/how is he against Martial Arts? --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 17:54:07 -0400 From: "Rudy Timmerman" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Wraps Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce writes: > I really wish someone would go on record about this whole inter-relationship > among these folks and the influences that caused them to organize things as > they did as well as some of the sources that they drew on during the > process. I don't understand why its so important to keep things under wraps. Hello Bruce: As you are aware, I am not an authority on historical data, but your take on things seem pretty much the way they were passed on to me. From personal talks with GM Suh, GM Pak, and others, there was a genuine attempt by a number of Masters to organize authentic Korean martial arts into a system. This was during a time where national pride was a highly important issue. Apparently this group split due to a power struggle, and various Masters went their own way. I fear however, that we will never know the truth you seek, as everyone involved in this has their own agenda. To air dirty laundry is in no one's interest, no matter how much WE would like to know. For me, it is not difficult to accept the fact that a fighting art absorbs useful techniques seen in other countries. IMHO, it is foolish to think that an art that is meant to save your butt would be kept pure just for the sake of nationalistic pride. The Chinese influence in Kuk Sool, Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do, and Kong Shin Bup is said to be due to the fact that the Chinese and Korean population near the Chinese/Korean border used similar thechniques. In fact, some say that these borders may have shifted from time to time, and that the population in the region is a mixture of Chinese and Korean people and culture. On another note: While I was in Korea a few months ago to attend a tournament, I saw quite a few vehicles bearing the Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do name. I found this to be very interesting, because I was told that this name had been abandoned back in the 70's. My Dahn certificates changed name about that same time, and the Hap Ki Do portion of the name was dropped. At any rate, I hope to see you at the gathering in Chicago in a few weeks. We can compare a few more notes if you like, because I am not sure what you refer to with the Gum Hyung. Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Randall Sexton" To: Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 00:15:22 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ki Training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I wouldn't bother with Scott Shaw's work unless you just like to buy books. His videos are even worse. Here's some good books for you: 1. Power of Internal Arts by B.K. Frantiz (I've seen him in action) 2. Relaxing Into Your Being by B.K. Frantiz 3. The Great Stillness by B.K. Frantiz 4. The Way of Energy by Lam Kam Chuen 5. A Brief History of Qi by Zhang Yu Huan and Ken Rose 6. Ki in Daily Life by Koichi Tohei 7. A Road That Anyone Can Walk by William Reed 8. Ki: A Practical Guide for Westerners 9. Ki in Daily Life by Koichi Tohei 10. Book of Ki: Co-ordinating Mind and Body in Daily Life 11. Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body by B.K. Frantiz 12. The Healer Within by Roger Jahnke 13. The Healing Promise of Qi by Roger Jahnke 14. The Wooden Bowl by Clark Strand (best book on meditation) 15. Knocking at the Gate of Life Translated by Edward Chang (good book of Qigong exercises) This will get you started. You can see my entire martial art library and order at http://www.laughinghara.com/martial_art_books.htm That way I can order more books without my wife complaining! Randall Sexton www.laughinghara.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Tom Kennelly" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] FYI: National MA Day - politics Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 09:17:29 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net How can a Florida governor create a NATIONAL holiday? Did the governors from the other 49 states also agree? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 4:13 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] FYI: National MA Day Florida Governor Jeb Bush has joined with the National Association of Professional Martial Artists (NAPMA) to proclaim October 19, 2002 as National Martial Arts Day. --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 09:05:52 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Hwarangdo, Kuksul, Kongshinbeop, Hapkido, etc. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In an effort to stir up some more hornets, Bruce wrote: > So far, from what I have been able to figure we have GM Seo, In Sun and his > brother Suh, In Hyuk along with GM Pak and GM Yang all working together to > organize a more nationalist (Korean) art form compared to the more > Japanese-influenced Hapkido arts. About the same time we have GM Lee, Joo > Bang doing the same thing from a slightly different angle and producing > HWARANGDO. There's a bunch of this at my history at: http://php.indiana.edu/~burdickd/hkd_hist_1.html Here is the relevant stuff about Joo Bang Lee: "The Lee brothers founded the Hanguk Musul Hoe (Korean Martial Arts Association) in 1962, later shortening the name to Kuksul Hwe (National Arts Association). The members of this organization included Woo-Tack Kim, Han-Chul Lee, Il-Woong Huh, In-Hyeok Seo, and Moo-Jin Kim, with Han-Chul Lee and In-Hyeok Seo founding the Pusan branch of the association in October of 1963. In 1966, the Kuksul Hwe disbanded due to leadership conflicts. The last attempt to keep hwarangdo, Kuksulweon and hapkido unified was the Unified Korean Martial Arts Exposition on May 27, 1968. The arts represented at the exposition included hwarangdo, Kuksulkwan, Sangmukwan hapkido, Shinmukwan hapkido, bisul, kihapdo, kido, yusul, and yukweonsul. At that time, Yong-Sul Choi awarded Joo-Bang Lee an 8th dan in hapkido. Lee also held a 4th dan in kuksulweon. Lee's set of three volumes on hwarangdo (recently reprinted) remain among the best comprehensive works on the Korean yusul family of arts." About In Hyuk Suh: "In-Hyeok Seo (1939-) and his brother In-Seon Seo (aka. In-Sun Seo) are said to have founded Kuksulweon (national arts association) around 1961. In-Hyeok Seo (aka. In-Hyuk Suh) was taught first at the age of six by his grandfather, "Myung-deuk Suh," who had been a master instructor of the Korean Royal Court Army but who, according to Hallander, was fatally wounded in the Korean War by North Korean soldiers. In-Hyeok Seo studied breathing, meditation, and ki techniques from Hae Dong Seu Nim (Great Monk on the Eastern Sunrise), a Buddhist monk. Seo went on to learn Southern Praying Mantis kung-fu under Tae-Eui Wang and then studied hapkido under Yong-Sul Choi beginning in 1958." About the Chinese influence: "Many Chinese immigrated to Korea after the Chinese Revolution of 1949, including at least four teachers of k'ung hu (gongfu in Chinese): Poom-Chang Lim (1910-1982), Kyung-Ban Kang (1912-), Sue-Chon No, and Master Koo. Lim taught orthodox praying mantis style in the Seoul area. Kang taught praying mantis as well and was still teaching in Pusan and Taiwan in 1989. Chon taught the p'algwae (eight trigrams; bagua in Chinese) or "palm strike" method in Inchon. In China, he was called "the gate guard of the rich." Koo taught six harmony Seorim k'ung hu (Shaolin gongfu), which was also known as changkweon (long fist; changquan in Chinese). " About the hapkido connection: "In-Hyeok Seo visited Mu-Hyun' Kim's hapkido school in Seoul in 1962. Kim had been drafted into the army, and after Seo demonstrated some of his palm-striking techniques, four of Kim's students -- Han-Chul Lee, Woo-Tak Kim, Il-Woong Huh, and Joo-Bang Lee -- went to Pusan to train further under Seo. Seo's other students included Han-Chul Lee, Moo-Jin Kim, Jong-Oh Lee, Myung-Ho Jang, In-Seok Seo (In-Suk Suh), In-Seon Seo (In Sun Seo), Jong-Won Byun, Jae-Choon Park, Sung-Sam Cho, and Heui-Yeong Kim." About the connection between Kuksul and Hwarangdo (based on Bob Duggan's experiences in the 1960s and 1970s): "In 1977, Duggan received a copy of the 1975 Kuk Sool Training Manual from Joe Twiggs, one of his students in Arkansas. Duggan showed the manual to Joo-Bang Lee. Lee was 'stunned and disquieted' and a week later handed a handwritten training syllabus to John Huppuck. Like the Kuksul manual, the syllabus listed every technique from white belt to 5th dan, and Duggan thought there was "a remarkable similarity between the two manuals." The stories that Ji In Pak told about the early history of hapkido are that he founded Kuksul with Mr. Kim, and that they brought in In-Hyeok Seo because of his experience in praying mantis and because they wanted to add forms. When they went to Germany (perhaps for military service), they returned to find GM Seo saying he had founded it. As I recall, GM Seo's side of the story was that GM Pak was one of his instructors who broke away. There certainly was no love lost between the two. I wasn't there, so I don't know, but I do know that GM Pak insisted on his story until his dying day and his students have a a full-length portrait of himself dressed in the golden Kuksul master's uniform. > Frankly I think it took a lotta B***s for the late General Choi > to let himself be interviewed and published about the actual history of > Taekwondo and admit that it was essentially something he whip-stitched > together Let's give credit where credit is due; GM Ki Hwang did it first in his little history of tangsudo. But it was very conscientious of GM Choi to publish that article before he died. For me it cemented his role in the development of the art. > I don't understand why it is unreasonable to expect the same > from these players in the Hapkido arts. I must be getting cynical in my dotage, but frankly I am surprised when someone tells a story about their past that rings true. Memory changes over the years and since our egos are tied to our stories, they tend to get better over the years. Nothing new there. Marketing in the martial arts is the same way. People sell the story, not the technique, because the technique is not very different from art to art when you get right down to it. That means that most stories have a bit of fairy dust in them. So Gen. Choi's article was very surprising to me, because it was counter to his best interests in terms of marketing, which made it ring true. Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest