Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 16:15:04 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #445 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: To Ki or not to Ki (Alastair Vance) 2. Re:Ki revisited...to ki or not to ki (earthlink) 3. Re: TKD while pregnant (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 4. Andrew Jackson College (J.R. West) 5. RE: TKD and pregnancy... (Wallace, John) 6. RE: TKD & Pregnancy (Anne Skjold) 7. To Ki, or Not to Ki...Part Deux (Stovall, Craig) 8. Pregnancy and Martial Arts (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 9. Re: TKD and Pregnancy (Mary Braud) 10. RE: To Ki or not to Ki (Woodard Brian (ChW/TEF8)) 11. Re: 2 Key or Not 2 Key (Lee Fisk) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Alastair Vance Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 16:35:38 +0100 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] To Ki or not to Ki Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Talking about believing in God: is there any christian's on this list? Is it possible to learn a martial art through to Black belt and be a christian? What are your opinions on Ki? Is it instructor specific whether these breathing exercises are used in class or not? Alastair. TKD Beginner. -----Original Message----- From: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net [mailto:the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net] Sent: 17 September 2002 16:31 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] To Ki or not to Ki I have to agree with Craig Stovall on a lot of his ki approach. I personally think too many people look into ki,, when they should JUST be doing breathing exercises. If you focus on Ki I think you are looking at it in the wrong manner. Don't worry about ki or chi or prana, just practice your breathing exercises and everything else takes care of itself... One question for Craig. Craig do you believe in God? And if so can you tell me when and where or by what means you have seen, talked to, or met him or her or it? If you tell me you are a devout atheist then your arguement about ki is legitimate, but if you tell me you believe in God then it is not. Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "earthlink" To: Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:39:28 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:Ki revisited...to ki or not to ki Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I got hand it to you....you are a good skeptic. I'm not part of the medical community, and I'm no master martial artist, however, whether it's air, breath, bio-electric currents, wishful thinking or whatever, ki control has helped me gain power in my technique, control over emotional responses, and helped me get though major orthapedic surgery this year (lortab helped too). I don't know what it is, I'm not interested in measuring it, and if someone else doesn't believe it is real, my feelings aren't hurt. I'm not like the monkeys in Jungle Book, just because we say it makes it so...but I kind find it a shame in a small way that westerners believe less and less in the "mystical" or "magical" parts of the world, and have come to rely only on scientist and "proof". Scientists are sort of magicians in their own right. You have to take on faith alot of what they have told us over the years. And alot of it is and has been proven wrong. You raise some good points...and I'm sorry I can't answer them. Maybe someone else out there can. Eric --__--__-- Message: 3 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:40:07 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: TKD while pregnant Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Hi to all! I know this may sound like a dumb question, but I'd like to find out if anyone has information on how far into pregnancy I can or should keep on training. I just found out I'm pregnant, and I plan to ask my instructor to let me skip the sparring sessions, but I don't want to stop training altogether if I can manage it. Any suggestions or advice? Thank you for your help! Barbara Mendez" hi barbara! congratulations! :). my understanding is that you can do any kind of physical activity (within reason) that you were doing prior to your pregnancy. if you are a runner...keep running, bicyclist....keep cycling, martial artist...keep kicking. not sparring is a good idea and falls, rolls are out. enjoy :) melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy http://www.cjmaa.com Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.cjmas.com Toll Free: 1-877-847-4072 Proud Sponsor of the 2003 Annual Show Me State Open Martial Arts Tournament --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "J.R. West" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:52:13 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Andrew Jackson College Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think that Dr. Kimm's "Andrew Jackson College" has been put on hiatus since the good Dr.'s energies have been focused in the direction of his HanMuDo system. Dr. Kimm founded the largely "study by correspondence" college in the late 1970's, and I was proud to have been asked to join the faculty. The school received a full four year accreditation from the State of Louisiana, but I'm not sure if it still functions at all. To this day, I still use one of it's courses, AD-102 (History of Martial Arts), or the material from that course, as part of my required reading for black belts. J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Wallace, John" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] TKD and pregnancy... Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 08:58:43 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Barbara: Congratulations on your pregnancy. We had our first baby about 6 months ago. Unfortunately my wife developed pregnancy-related hypertension and the doctor wouldn't let her participate in TKD (or even vigorous exercise!) for much of her pregnancy. Her TKD background still paid dividends however: when we were in the labor room, a nurse came in to check her spine for suitability for an epidural. Stacey was on her back at the time, with the covers piled up over her big preggo belly. The nurse told her she needed to sit her up to look at her back and came to assist. Too late - to the nurse's astonishment Stacey crunched up without a problem, thanks to TKD abs :) The other moment came in the delivery room - our baby was breech so we had to have a C-section. While the surgeon was carving his way in, he murmured, "Damn, look at that ab development - suturing will be easy." This after months of medically advised inactivity. (She'd taken TKD for 2 years at this point) -John W. I Dan, TKD Fremont, CA -----Original Message----- From: Barbara Campos [mailto:bcamposc@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 9:16 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD and pregnancy... Hi to all! I know this may sound like a dumb question, but I'd like to find out if anyone has information on how far into pregnancy I can or should keep on training. I just found out I'm pregnant, and I plan to ask my instructor to let me skip the sparring sessions, but I don't want to stop training altogether if I can manage it. Any suggestions or advice? Thank you for your help! Barbara Mendez __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release Date: 9/9/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release Date: 9/9/2002 --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Anne Skjold" To: Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:15:04 -0500 Organization: Sodexho-MSUM Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: TKD & Pregnancy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Barbara, I went all the way up to my due date with no problems. You know what your body can do and what it can as you become more pregnant. And depending how advanced you are anything that you have done before pregnancy you can do while pregnant. In all honesty I took my 1st Degree test 8.5 months into my pregnancy. And now I have a very happy and healthy 8 month old son. Backing off of sparring and contact to your body is a necessity of course. You can do it. & Good Luck Anne Skjold Hi to all! I know this may sound like a dumb question, but I'd like to find out if anyone has information on how far into pregnancy I can or should keep on training. I just found out I'm pregnant, and I plan to ask my instructor to let me skip the sparring sessions, but I don't want to stop training altogether if I can manage it. Any suggestions or advice? Thank you for your help! Barbara Mendez --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:33:46 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] To Ki, or Not to Ki...Part Deux Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net First of all, good insights from Paul, Bruce, and Jeremy. I am totally in agreement that if you are perceiving benefits from your breathing exercises (or kata, or meditations, or whatever) then you should continue irregardless if the activity is actually enhancing "ki" or not. The bottom line is that if what you are doing is enhancing your life experience...more power to you. My only question is whether or not these activities are increasing ki/chi/prana, or some other physiological process (read: one that can ultimately be quantified under the umbrella of physics, biology, anatomy, etc.) I guess I am trying to say that I am not knocking "ki development", but rather trying to say that I want to better understand what drives the "benefits". Michael wrote, <<>> Yes, I see the point you are trying to make (I think). In other words, if I believe in God (or Allah, or Jehovah, or Shiva, or the Easter Bunny) then it is somewhat hypocritical of me to bring into question the existence of ki due to lack of hard evidence, since there is no hard observable evidence that would lead one to believe in God. Correct? Hmmmmm, I'm not sure I agree with that premise. There seems to be a logical fallacy there, but I can't quite express it in words. Maybe one of the resident philosophy majors can help me out. For what it's worth, I have run the spectrum in my life in regards to religious belief...there was a time when I was a devout Christian, and yet another time when I was a die hard atheist. Suffice it to say, that I'm currently stuck in the middle (I think some would call me agnostic, but I soooooo detest labels). I'm certainly not ready to proclaim, "There is no God", and I don't feel comfortable counting myself among the throng of believers who are somehow "in the know" when it comes to the workings of the universe, but can't figure out how to file their own taxes and still manage to lose their car keys from time to time. I'm just walking the road, and looking for answers...anybody got any, please pass them along. For those of you who have arrived at conclusions that bring you a sense of peace and comfort...congratulations. Maybe I'll get there. But back to the premise of your argument. Is there objective and verifiable evidence for God? You would seem to be saying "No", and I would tend to agree. But let's not get hasty...just because I haven't seen the smoking gun doesn't mean it's not there. Maybe God's got himself a townhouse down in Tampa, and I just don't have the address. All I need to do is jump in the car and go see him. All of sudden BOOM...come next Sunday morning there's Craig in the front row singing hymns and shouting Amen. Therefore, my question about evidence for ki. Please understand, I'm not looking down my nose, and proclaiming, "Well, you dummies can't prove it, so you're all stuck in the Dark Ages and I'm Mr. Rational". Quite the contrary. If there's objective evidence out there then I'm the first one to be interested. Remember my question about the Sony study. I think it would be fascinating to know what a multi-billion dollar company was able to find out. At the same time, I echo Bruce's comments in the sense that there is a limit to the "objectivity" of scientific observation (isn't that what Neils Bohr got hung up on?). The frontiers of science are ever widening, and much of that we take for granted is beyond the scope of scientific explanation. Heck, look at gravity. Look at the fact that nobody knows how the grass in my lawn uses sunlight to string together simple molecules into complex combinations for the creation of usable energy (personally, I see more evidence for God in a blade of grass than I ever got from a religious text). So if "ki" is outside the scope, so be it. We can lump it in with gravity. However, I don't want to accept it as a metaphysical constant (like God), and continue down the merry path of blissful ignorance. Does that make sense? I'm rambling...I know. Anyway, if anybody has more insight please share it. And I agree with Michael...do the breathing because it's good for your health, not because it increases your ki. Craig "I wanna throw a fireball like Ryu" Stovall P.S. - If I can't throw a fireball, would the folks at PETA get mad if I just lit up a Tibetan Gopher instead? --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 12:23:12 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Pregnancy and Martial Arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Barbara, Your question is very important, and not dumb at all. I know you will probably get a number of comments. I also remember that there was lengthy discussion on this digest some time ago with lots of people, myself included writing about their or their wives' experiences. I think that discussion laid out the things you need to be concerned about and the precautions you need to take. So do a search in the archives and I believe you'll get a lot of good info. Good Luck. Danny Dunn <<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _ --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:01:10 -0500 From: Mary Braud To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: TKD and Pregnancy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Barbara, I am currently pregnant too, and ironically, my instructor seems to be more concerned about my pregnancy than my doctor! :) The doctor says not to let my heartrate get above 110 and no sparring. I can continue this as long as I'd like. My instructor limits my jumping as well. I still stretch, do forms, punch, kick, and all that good stuff, I am just careful about any contact. Even in class when others are sparring, I sit and coach from the side. This means that I'll have to postpone beginning my test for 2nd Dan, but I'll do my best to stay active and not lose any memory! Best wishes, and just enjoy the changes your body is going through. Keep up some exercise, though. It will help you physically, as well as making it easier to get back into it full blast after the baby is born. I'll be happy to communicate with you one-on-one throughout this time if you'd like. Sometimes, it's nice knowing someone else who is going through the same thing as you! Best Regards, Mary Braud mbraud@fedex.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Barbara Campos [mailto:bcamposc@yahoo.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 12:16 AM > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD and pregnancy... > > > Hi to all! > > I know this may sound like a dumb question, but I'd > like to find out if anyone has information on how far > into pregnancy I can or should keep on training. > > I just found out I'm pregnant, and I plan to ask my > instructor to let me skip the sparring sessions, but I > don't want to stop training altogether if I can manage > it. > > Any suggestions or advice? > > Thank you for your help! > > Barbara Mendez --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Woodard Brian (ChW/TEF8)" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] To Ki or not to Ki Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 16:14:32 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Alastair; I am a Christian and do not find any issues that would prevent me from attaining my black belt. (possibly next year) As far as Ki I am beginning my journey in to Ki. I have always found that meditation always strengthens my spirituality. I often meditate on scriptures in the Bible to find deeper meanings in them. My faith that God/Jesus is the creator should not prevent me from progressing in Ki development. There is nothing that I have seen so far that would convince me that the energy flow, healing techniques, and higher consciousness/enlightenment (excuse me if I am using the wrong terms) that Ki promotes are not part of the awesome design that God created in the beginning. Thanks, Brian Woodard -----Original Message----- From: Alastair Vance [mailto:avance@cts-eur.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 11:36 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] To Ki or not to Ki Talking about believing in God: is there any christian's on this list? Is it possible to learn a martial art through to Black belt and be a christian? What are your opinions on Ki? Is it instructor specific whether these breathing exercises are used in class or not? Alastair. TKD Beginner. -----Original Message----- From: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net [mailto:the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net] Sent: 17 September 2002 16:31 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] To Ki or not to Ki I have to agree with Craig Stovall on a lot of his ki approach. I personally think too many people look into ki,, when they should JUST be doing breathing exercises. If you focus on Ki I think you are looking at it in the wrong manner. Don't worry about ki or chi or prana, just practice your breathing exercises and everything else takes care of itself... One question for Craig. Craig do you believe in God? And if so can you tell me when and where or by what means you have seen, talked to, or met him or her or it? If you tell me you are a devout atheist then your arguement about ki is legitimate, but if you tell me you believe in God then it is not. Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Lee Fisk" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 20:44:38 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: 2 Key or Not 2 Key Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I appologize for following the train but I couldn't help myself. Crain Stovall wrote: >Can you touch it, see it, smell it, taste it, or hear it? If not, then >aren't you just abandoning your own experience for what you've read in a >book...or just playing that same old game of "Sensei Sez"? Well, there are plenty of things in physics which are deduced from their impact although they aren't absolutely seen. None of them would fit in your categories. > >Any men and women of science here? Particularly in the realm of medicine >and biology? Perhaps you can offer your opinion on this elusive >phenomenon. I'm not sure that I quallify. Really my background was in English; it was only a bit later I added the Biology and Chemical Engineering degrees. I'm sure your aware of some of the old experiments with monkeys; given placebo mothers they died for lack of something. I've seen people in recovery change from screaming drunks back to real live upstanding humans beings based upon faith. Seems like a real affect to me. Nothing else worked. Pretty well documented; look at the big book of AA for some interesting workings of the spirit. >In what year do they cover chi? Is that a second year subject, or do they >wait and teach it along with bleeding, evil humors, and stomach-dwelling >toads? Ok...now I'm being a smarty-pants. Sorry. Exactly how much have you read on Ki? The book that I mentioned has experiments to look at the impact of Ki. Ever try any of the experiments? >Direct, objective, verifiable evidence...that's all I'm asking for. For >something that is so "real" (at least in the sense that a ton of people >talk >about it) there must be a lot of objective evidence. And no...a $15 >paperback published by Shambala press and written by someone with a foreign >sounding name doesn't count. It's kind of like religion; no accounting for the effect but some have survived for over 8000 years. Who am I to discount them; I'll be lucky to survive 100 years. >Craig "The Amazing Randi is gullible compared to me" Stovall- My recommendation is to ki-eep an open mind. Best regards, Lee Fisk (Tucson, AZ) _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest