Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 03:02:07 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #446 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Ki Stuff (Randall Sexton) 2. Ittsy bittsy Ki (Patrick L) 3. Unified Rominization (Ray Terry) 4. Re: To Ki or not to Ki (Lee Fisk) 5. Korean Aikido sites (Andrew Pratt) 6. Re: Re: To Ki or not to Ki (Daniel Paik) 7. two keys are better than one (michael tomlinson) 8. religion (rich hodder) 9. Christians in the Martial Arts (Shara Blagrave) 10. RE: to Ki or not to Ki/ Christian Martial Artist (Don Moore) 11. Re: is there any christian's on this list? (ISA CONSULTATION GROUP) 12. Re:Ki or no Ki?? (MartialArtist05@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Randall Sexton" To: Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:47:51 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ki Stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Alright, now I'll be nice. Honestly, has there ever been one verified instance in which scientists have proved the existence of a biological process or phenomenon that would be analogous to the eastern philosophy of "ki"?< There are many empirical studies, most in other countries (and remember that many other countries have superior educational systems than ours). The Qigong Institute in Menlo Park, CA has more than 1,600 abstracts of studies. We use energy based sciences all the time, ie, TV, cell phones, internet so what's so amazing about ki? Physiology and "modern" medicine continues to use pre-Einstein science in a post-Einstein era of quantum physics. Also, empirical studies, in my opinion, are not to be relied on too much. Two identical studies can get different results. Drug companies put out drugs which research shows to be safe, then have to withdraw them because they kill people. And you know why; because of the consciousness of the researchers (ki extends beyond the body). Point is to get away from the brain thing and go with experience. A couple books for you: a.. Inner Bridges: A Guide to Energy Movement and Body Structure by Fritz F. Smith, M.D. b.. The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism by Fritjof Capra c.. Virtual Medicine: A New Dimension in Energy Healing by Dr. Keith Scott-Mumby d.. The Living Energy Universe by Drs. Gary Schwartz and Linda Russek Can you touch it, see it, smell it, taste it, or hear it? Can you see electricity, the wind, or God? Go experience it. I'm a skeptic, folks...humor me. When we talk about "ki development"...how do you develop something that is so difficult to DEFINE, much less measure? Let's see, how do you "measure" an experience? Define and measure the last time you made love. Was it a "wow!" or did you go into your scientific, monkey mind and try to define, measure, and analyze? You can get your face slapped if you give the wrong answer! Any men and women of science here? Particularly in the realm of medicine and biology? Direct, objective, verifiable evidence...that's all I'm asking for. Again studies are not much in my opinion. Let me give you an example. Our acupuncture students (Academy of Oriental Medicine at Austin) study a modality based on qi. However, they rarely feel it until they get into a bodywork class and I slap them around till they get out of their heads and start experiencing ki. Then it's "oh, ya, now I feel it!" In Zen Shiatsu, there are diagnostic zones in the abdomen where you can tell which meridians are out of balance. You can also pick up a lot of what is going on with a person there. Recently, I was touching a student's abdomen and asked her if she and her husband was fighting. She said "no," but then a few minutes later admitted that she was mad at her husband because he had given her a cold. Pauline Susaki, who does Quantum Shiatsu, can touch your abdomen and tell you what illnesses your grandparents had! This is ki or energy work and you won't find it in many modern medical schools. It's kind of a standing joke with some of us that we only actually touch the human body so that we will get paid by the client, because the most effective healing work is off the body. So exactly what is ki? Is it the "force" in the Star Wars movie? Is it our imagination, our spirit, an adrenaline burst, intention, the energy within our cells? In defining ki, consider the following: a.. ki follows the mind but the conscious mind does not direct the ki. b.. we have to develop an awareness or create the proper "field" for ki. If you stubbornly deny its existence, your chances of experiencing it are slim. A healthy lifestyle will also influence ki awareness. c.. ki relates not only to the physical part of our lives but also the mental and emotional aspects. You might experience it as the "atmosphere" when you walk into a room, be it a prison or a Zen garden. d.. according to modern physics the entire universe is composed of energy and information. e.. the concept of vital energy is still around in physics. f.. ki is the cohesive, binding force at the point where energy creates matter. g.. some areas in nature have more ki than others, the seashore for example or a waterfall versus a small stream. h.. ki is restricted by tension, i.e.., a bent wrist or straining muscles. i.. in general, things Eastern are romanticized by Westerners. In the realm of Asian medicine, ki is a metaphor for organizing what's going on with a patient. The beauty of this metaphor is that it can sometimes explain and treat conditions that confound Western medicine. My explanation for the "amazing" power of ki in the martial arts is: Ki is the result of a trained relaxed body and empty mind that allow for the free flow of energy for optimal results. This is akin to any athlete being "in the zone." That works for me! Randall Sexton www.laughinghara.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Patrick L" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:36:15 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ittsy bittsy Ki Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net All, I can't let this pass twice . . . >I had a teacher who could slowly move a paper cup across a table without >touching it. < Let's not be impressed by half-assed suspensions of physics. Have your teacher bring the moon to Mr. Stovall's fingertips so he can touch it and be sure it exists. Getting in the Way, Patrick _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 16:23:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Unified Rominization Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarded message: Editorial: Unified Rominization http://www.koreaherald.com/SITE/data/html_dir/2002/09/16/200209160037.asp North Korean delegates to the U.N. Conference on the Standardization of Geographical Names in Berlin recently suggested that the two Koreas discuss ways to unify their systems for Romanizing Korean words. The proposal is more than welcome. Very properly, the North Koreans pointed out that they faced many difficulties in Romanizing the names of South Korean people and places because the South has too frequently changed its system for transliterating Korean words into the Roman alphabet. It is good that the concerned authorities in Seoul are positively responding to the proposal. Foreign Ministry officials have acknowledged that they informed other relevant government agencies of the North's proposal for joint consultation to seek a "unified standard system." All concerned government offices are urged to coordinate swiftly and efficiently to prepare for inter-Korean negotiations on this vital issue. The sooner the two Koreas begin to talk, the better it definitely would be. It is a pity that the South Korean government has been wasting huge amounts of taxpayers' money since it adopted a new Romanization system two years ago. Not only many billions of won from the coffers of central and local governments have been squandered, but tremendous confusion has occurred as well. Road and traffic signs across the country were hurriedly replaced before the World Cup soccer finals, leading foreign residents and visitors to suffer unnecessary inconvenience amid the mishmash of Romanized names following both old and new systems. An even greater pity is that few knowledgeable people support the new system based on conversion between letters but not sounds. The government adopted the system devised by a group of nationalistic Korean linguists, turning a deaf ear to strong opposition from concerned specialists and long-time foreign residents. It is unthinkable that this absurd system will acquire international endorsement in Korean studies, publication, cartography or private commercial transactions anytime soon. As a daily user of Romanized Korean names and words, we earnestly recommended in this page that the government shelve the new system and speak with North Korea to establish a unified system for both sides. The intransigent policymakers at the Ministry of Culture and Tourism should take full blame for the fabulous chaos around the country brought on by different versions of Romanized names - such as Busan and Pusan, Daejeon and Taejon, Joseon and Choson, and even the North Korean mountain Geumgang and Kumgang. Romanization of all languages is fundamentally an international task that is intended to serve foreigners who do not speak or read the local tongue. The two Koreas would do well to discuss necessary modifications to the system that the North has consistently used over the years and that the South Korean government has replaced with an inferior substitute. While not without drawbacks, McCune-Reischauer has seen the widest use among the international community for over a century. By unifying their Romanization systems, the divided Koreas would be able to make a significant stride toward cultural unity. (If they are going to implement McCune Reischauer again the new system would have been the shortest living one) Henny (Lee Hae Kang) --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Lee Fisk" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 23:31:26 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: To Ki or not to Ki Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Alastair, I am as is my instructor who is a GM from Korea. Strange, but an old friend of mine who was in my wedding party near 20 years ago was the son of one of the first Korean Christian ministers. His father spent eight years in jail for being a Christian in Korea. There, conversion used to be a really big issue. Best regards, Lee Fisk (Tucson, AZ) >Message: 1 >From: Alastair Vance >Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 16:35:38 +0100 >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] To Ki or not to Ki >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >Talking about believing in God: is there any christian's on this list? Is >it possible to learn a martial art through to Black belt and be a >christian? >What are your opinions on Ki? Is it instructor specific whether these >breathing exercises are used in class or not? > >Alastair. >TKD Beginner. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Andrew Pratt" To: "dojang" Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:01:07 +0900 Subject: [The_Dojang] Korean Aikido sites Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray and Ali asked: > >> > Oops, I forgot to include the website address: http://www.aikibudokai.net Andrew, Is this related to your Aikido school? << First a reality check to make sure we are looking at the same page. The page has a couple of lines of text (in Korean) with two links. Correct? Using my amazing ability to read Korean, I deduce that the site appears to be merely a speculative site registration by a company called Impunity who offer a web hosting service. Nothing to do with Aikido I'm afraid. Regards, Andrew --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 17:00:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Daniel Paik Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: To Ki or not to Ki To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am also Christian and study martial arts. I have no problem with studying ki. I don't think ki is against my beliefs as I look at ki as an inner strength and an energy that comes from within. Dan. --- Lee Fisk wrote: > Hello Alastair, > > I am as is my instructor who is a GM from Korea. Strange, but an old friend > > of mine who was in my wedding party near 20 years ago was the son of one of > > the first Korean Christian ministers. His father spent eight years in jail > for being a Christian in Korea. There, conversion used to be a really big > issue. > > Best regards, > > Lee Fisk > (Tucson, AZ) > > >Message: 1 > >From: Alastair Vance > >Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 16:35:38 +0100 > >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] To Ki or not to Ki > >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > > >Talking about believing in God: is there any christian's on this list? Is > >it possible to learn a martial art through to Black belt and be a > >christian? > >What are your opinions on Ki? Is it instructor specific whether these > >breathing exercises are used in class or not? > > > >Alastair. > >TKD Beginner. > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 00:19:30 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] two keys are better than one Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think Craig and I see the world very closely.. I too have often wondered about all the ki followers, and their claims, and when I have students ask me about it my response is not to concern yourself about ki,, JUST PRACTICE your breathing!! Now I don't say this to avoid the issue, I just believe that since you can't really explain it, or touch it or taste it just like Craig says then explaining it to students to give them a "logical definition to something that is based on intuition and feel" can't really be done. Do I believe in KI? Yes,, can I explain it and validate it? No... Do I believe in a supreme creator? Yes,, have I seen him in a condo in Tampa? NO, but I still "feel" that there is one somewhere,, I think that is the answer to the riddle, and that is how I try to teach it,, IF you practice dilligently then you begin to FEEL it,, meaning Ki,, and IF you can FEEL it enough then it changes your health, disposition, and willpower.. and even then you can't explain IT but you know it is there. Does this make sense? Probably not but that is why it is so hard,, you are trying to use logic to explain something that is basically illogical and based on the sense of feeling not hard data,, Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "rich hodder" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 18:20:38 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] religion Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I find the question of "can you be a Christian and become a Black belt?" interesting. What in the world does religion have to do with the martial arts. Each individual accepts learning in their own way. Whether you call that religion, philosophy, feeling, intuition, Tibetan gofer throwing or Ki, it really does not matter. Is one religion better than the other, is one martial art better than another, only to the individual that is concerned. IMHO it is best to learn your religious beliefs from your family and your martial arts from a qualified individual that YOU respect and trust. RichGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 17:48:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Shara Blagrave To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Christians in the Martial Arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It is absolutely possible to learn a martial art and attain black belt level and be a christian. This site answers some of the christianity in the martial arts issues - http://www.glondon.com/tkd.html It also has links to some organizations specifically for christian martial artists such as The Fellowship of Christian Martial Artists and The International Network of Christian Martial Artists. I don't really know much about these organizations personally, but thought I would pass the info along. ~Shara ----------------------------------------------------- From: Alastair Vance Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 16:35:38 +0100 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] To Ki or not to Ki Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Talking about believing in God: is there any christian's on this list? Is it possible to learn a martial art through to Black belt and be a christian? What are your opinions on Ki? Is it instructor specific whether these breathing exercises are used in class or not? Alastair. TKD Beginner. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 21:09:40 -0500 From: Don Moore To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: to Ki or not to Ki/ Christian Martial Artist Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Alastair, I believe you can be a Christian and practice Martial Arts. The school I belong to, Christ First Taekwondo www.christfirsttkd.com , is geared specifically to Christians. I feel that traditional martial arts and Christianity make a good combination. There is a link on our web site to an in depth study of Christianity and the Martial Arts and if you do a web search you will find several organizations promoting Chritianity in the Martial Arts. Don From: Alastair Vance Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 16:35:38 +0100 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] To Ki or not to Ki Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Talking about believing in God: is there any christian's on this list? Is it possible to learn a martial art through to Black belt and be a christian? What are your opinions on Ki? Is it instructor specific whether these breathing exercises are used in class or not? Alastair. TKD Beginner. --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "ISA CONSULTATION GROUP" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 22:24:45 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: is there any christian's on this list? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am a Christian and a martial artist. The two are compatible. Ki breathing is a part of what I teach for good health, not to explore the Cosmos or Astral Plane. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/7895/salv.html George Petrotta ISA Director http://hapkido.4dw.com/ http://leftbehind2001.tripod.com/index.html _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: MartialArtist05@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 22:35:06 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:Ki or no Ki?? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 9/17/02 11:32:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: << the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >> Hello. I am a believer in Ki. I feel that if you focus and concentrate hard enough, you can shoot Ki blasts like in Dragon Ball Z, or Ryu in Street Fighter the video game. I havnt been in the Martial Arts too long, I'm a light blue belt in TKD, and a white belt in Yudo, but i can already tell, that if you focus and try really hard, you can accomplish a lot. I've been reading the Dojang Digest for a bit, and I think you Black Belts and others who have been in Martial Arts for a while, could externalize Ki. Maybe not like Vegeta, in Dragonball Z, but I believe it to be possible. -John Helderman --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. 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