Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 07:41:05 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #447 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Christians, martial arts, and ki training (SSHapkido@aol.com) 2. Training and pregnancy (Neal Konecky) 3. RE: religion (Alastair Vance) 4. (no subject) (jens.schaefer@aikyu.de) 5. Christian on the List (Cliff.Vaught@pmusa.com) 6. moving a cup (michael tomlinson) 7. re: Pregnancy and Martial Arts (Lasich, Mark D.) 8. History Course Question (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 9. To Ki or not to Ki - and Christianity (Miguel) 10. Towards a more accurate wording..... (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 11. RE: To Ki or not to Ki - and Christianity (Woodard Brian (ChW/TEF8)) 12. Grandmasters' interpretation of Ki (Martin, Patrick Marvin) 13. RE: Christians in Martial A (Kirk Lawson) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: SSHapkido@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 00:12:27 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Christians, martial arts, and ki training Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Alastair, Yes, I'm a Christian and have been training for almost 8 years in a school that does teach ki breathing techniques. I have never really had a problem with the concept of ki breathing. At first I thought that what they were telling me about ki was a bunch of garbage, but it didn't bother me because I just tried to focus on learning the hapkido techniques. I didn't care what they believed about it. Later, as I understood the concept better, I came to believe that ki energy is a natural phenomenon that was created by God. But very few people are aware of it or know how to use it. It's not magic or voodoo or some crazy oriental belief that is contrary to Christianity. I had a much harder time sorting out all the bowing in the martial arts and had to remind myself that I was bowing out of respect for another's knowledge of the martial arts and willingness to teach and it was not any sort of worship. I hope these thoughts are helpful. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 22:02:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Neal Konecky To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Training and pregnancy Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi to all! I know this may sound like a dumb question, but I'd like to find out if anyone has information on how far into pregnancy I can or should keep on training. I just found out I'm pregnant, and I plan to ask my instructor to let me skip the sparring sessions, but I don't want to stop training altogether if I can manage it. Any suggestions or advice? Thank you for your help! Barbara Mendez Ms. Mendez, There are some ovious dos and do nots. Yes, you can safely train, and in fact, physical exercise and resulting muscle tone now can help you down the road. There are a few caveats. Aside from the obvious (no sparring), there a few things to be careful of. 1. Your baby can not sweat. You do not want to exercise to the point that you increase your core temperature (I am told that you can tell when this is happening when your skin gets flushed). If you increase your core temperature, you can harm your baby. 2. As you progress in the pregnancy, your hips will become more flexible. This would not be a good time to see if you can do a split. You can injure yourself. Congratulations and good luck with the future Black Belt. Neal Konecky ===== "A general Dissolution of Principles and Manners will more surely overthrow the Liberties of America than the whole force of the Common Enemy" Samuel Adams __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Alastair Vance Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 9:20:19 +0100 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] religion Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It seems to most people Martial Arts is more than just fighting. It's a way of thinking. It involves meditation, and the art is often originated or steeped in Eastern religion/mysticism etc. These are the areas I felt may be incompatible with my beliefs. I have only been to TKD for a week now (2 classes) but have yet to see anything I have a problem with. It's when I read the Ki topic on this mailing list that I started to think. Alastair. -----Original Message----- From: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net [mailto:the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net] Sent: 18 September 2002 01:29 To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] religion I find the question of "can you be a Christian and become a Black belt?" interesting. What in the world does religion have to do with the martial arts. Each individual accepts learning in their own way. Whether you call that religion, philosophy, feeling, intuition, Tibetan gofer throwing or Ki, it really does not matter. Is one religion better than the other, is one martial art better than another, only to the individual that is concerned. IMHO it is best to learn your religious beliefs from your family and your martial arts from a qualified individual that YOU respect and trust. RichGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:08:32 +0200 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: jens.schaefer@aikyu.de Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi all! First of all: This whole Ki-Issue has one main problem: Ki itself has no... As far as I can tell, there are basically three approches ... 1.) Ki is for real. It is the ultimate power and energy which flows through everything. By getting control over Ki by your mind, you can do incredible things that may seem unbelievable. 2.) There is no Ki. It's all a mystical explanation for body mechanics and psychology which should be obsolete in these modern days. 3.) Ki is a model. It's an idea that helps you to grap and simplify many, many factors of your daily life and put it to use. Not much more, not much less. Me, personally, I tend to 3. ;-) If I am in a stressful situation, I do my best to focus my ki: it helps me to stay calm and concentrated, it helps me to get a subtle and intuitious insight to body mechanics. I don't care whether it's for real because I have other things on my mind right then. ;-) If I am not in a stress, than I don't care too much about it. I feel pity for those who think that Ki is close to the Jedi's Force, I feel pity as well for those who agressively fight against the idea of ki. Besides that: Many westeners tend to be more asian than any asian. I know not one single asian who makes such a fuss about Ki - and I train under a korean. Actually, I know a few people who got trained by asians - and all of us tend to make fun of those who never got close to any authentic asian training or mindset - but somehow think that they got the full insight about it all. ;-) -- humbly yours Jens --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Cliff.Vaught@pmusa.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 07:17:13 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Christian on the List Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Alistair, Yes - there is no problem being a Christian martial artist. One of my pastors out here in Richmond, VA, is a second degree in Kung Fu. You have to know what it is you believe and where to draw the line with regard to the eastern philosophies. Feel free to contact me sometime off-list. Cliff Vaught --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:38:57 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] moving a cup Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net someone writes: >I had a teacher who could slowly move a paper cup across a table without >touching it. < Sorry but I saw this trick last week on a magician's show, it was one of those secrets revealed type shows, they actually used a paper cup,, the trick is that the person loops very fine monofilament string around his thumbs and then pulls the cup across the table,, the string was so fine that you couldn't even see it against the table! The only way you could see it is when the masked magician showed the loop of string against a black piece of poster board. Beware of this kind of stuff,, the martial arts are full of tricksters,, nothing wrong with tricks as long as the instructor tells you it's a trick and doesn't try to convince you it is some big Ki deal.... my two cents.. Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Lasich, Mark D." To: "Dojang (E-mail)" Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 07:57:45 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] re: Pregnancy and Martial Arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Barbara, If you are a member of the American Taekwondo Association, you or your instructor should be able to call headquarters and get a copy of an instructor's thesis on that very topic. I used to know the lady who wrote it, so I know it is on file there. The amount of time and research that goes into each thesis creates a great resource for the rest of us to draw on. Good luck, and congratulations. In the spirit, Mark mark.lasich@alcoa.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 07:00:19 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] History Course Question Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear JR: "...... To this day, I still use one of it's courses, AD-102 (History of Martial Arts), or the material from that course, as part of my required reading for black belts....". Until Dr. Kimm publishes that mammoth history project he has been working on, do you suppose it is possible to get more information on the history course that you mentioned? Just the prescribed reading list might be a real help one way or the other. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Miguel" To: Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 08:18:22 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] To Ki or not to Ki - and Christianity Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net If there is Ki, God created it. Miguel Garcia's Tae Kwon Do http://garciatkd.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 07:23:16 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Towards a more accurate wording..... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Rich: ".....What in the world does religion have to do with the martial arts. Each individual accepts learning in their own way...." Actually I think a better question would be what is the role of morality in martial arts. Certainly large numbers of people on this planet use religion as a venue for investigating their spirituality. But as the keeper of ones' Purpose, religion is only one of a number of possibilities. Perhaps what we are sniffing around at is the traditional relationship between religions and morality and so I am suggesting adjusting the question a bit. I admit that the romantic side of MA has often spoken to the relationship with temples, Buddhism, Taoism and so forth. However, it seems to me that the overwhelming numbers of actual practitioners in MA history have consistently had roles with such enforcement agencies of society as military, police, judiciary, and administration. Even those MA which have their roots in southern China can often be found to relate to secret organizations such as the Hong Societies who espoused goals were protection of the weak and vulnerable, community strength and action, resistance to Ching oppession and support of Confucian values. Turning the coin over, one of the greatest impediments to MA growth in Korea historically seems to have been the desire to revivify Korean traditions, perhaps using material from the Japanese culture, but without immediately accepting or adopting the Japanese morality model such as it was. I think the role of religion as it relates to MA is important, but I suspect that what we are talking about here is actually morality and MA, yes? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Woodard Brian (ChW/TEF8)" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] To Ki or not to Ki - and Christianity Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:38:12 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Amen brother!!! :o) Brian Woodard -----Original Message----- From: Miguel [mailto:miguel@garciatkd.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 8:18 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] To Ki or not to Ki - and Christianity If there is Ki, God created it. Miguel Garcia's Tae Kwon Do http://garciatkd.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Martin, Patrick Marvin" To: "Dojang Digest (E-mail)" Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:11:51 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Grandmasters' interpretation of Ki Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I just started Hapkido training one month ago, so I have no experience of these matters. But from interviews I've read with some of the Grandmasters, their interpretations of Ki can differ vastly from one another. One might say Ki is pure adrenaline, one might say it is the universal energy. It seems that Ki, like "God", can many faces depending on who's doing the looking. Even the Grandmasters cannot agree. In this, I detect the recurrent problem one encounters in the study of comparitive religion -- that of communicating a revelation, or felt internal experience, to others effectly. Very difficult, and the end result is inevitably subjective. On these matters, I retreat to Lao Tzu and his description of the Tao... Patrick Martin --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:19:00 -0500 From: Kirk Lawson Organization: Heapy Engineering To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ("THE$DOJA@SMTP {the_dojang@martialartsresource.net}") Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Christians in Martial A Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From: Alastair Vance > Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 16:35:38 +0100 > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] To Ki or not to Ki > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Talking about believing in God: is there any christian's on > this list? Yes. > Is > it possible to learn a martial art through to Black belt and > be a christian? Yes. > What are your opinions on Ki? Ki is the "explanation" developed by the Chinese to explain a number of effects and processes that they thought were somehow related. This "explanation" grew into a theory or predictive mechanism whereby they attempted to reliably predict and produce those observed results and other results thought to be related under the "theory" of Ki. You have already been directed to a web site, here is another that attempts to examin the question from both sides. http://www.pastornet.net.au/response/ Further, here is a response to a similar question that I penned before. Ah yes. A common question, and one that I've had to deal with in the past. Firstly, let's look at scripture. King David, for instance was said to be "a man after God's own heart" yet he was undoubtedly a warrior, revered by modern Jews as the greatest Warrior King of Israel. But that's OT, some say. Can't reconcile that with "Turn the other cheek" stuff, so the argument goes. OK then... Peter and the other 12 had been with Jesus for HOW MANY YEARS? Did Peter just suddenly take to carrying a sword the night that Jesus was betrayed? Unlikely. Peter doubtless nearly always carried his sword. Yet, why did he still have it to the end? If Christ was so strongly opposed to weapons why didn't he make Peter get rid of it in the 2-3 year period while he was teaching them? And what about the other disciple(s) who had swords? According to Luke 22:38, at least two of them had swords ON THEM, AT THE READY. Why did they still have them? And on that topic, why in v. 36 does "The Prince of Peace" enjoin his followers to actually PURCHASE a weapon at the expense of their garments? Why at Gethsemane does Christ tell Peter to simply put away his sword instead of "get rid of that violent abomination"? Why does Christ then say that "those who live by the sword will die by the sword" instead of something more strongly "anti-violence"? It is clear to me that the Bible in general, and both the NT and the OT in specific do not prohibit the posetion of weapons or the use of violence in some fashion. The question then becomes, "If not prohibited, what is acceptable?" Again, looking at the scriptures: In Luke 22, we see here Jesus is (most scholars agree) prophesying the destruction of Jerusalem by Rome in AD 70. I believe that he was also prophesying the scattering of the Believers and wanted them to be prepared for what was coming. Again at Gethsemane, we see Jesus chastising Peter for his use of the sword, "Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." Some believe that this is an injunction against violence. However, Jesus explains his reasoning in the VERY NEXT VERSE: "(53) Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? (54) But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?" In other words, Jesus was saying that Peter's use of force to defend him was wholly inappropriate, else how could Jesus be crucified and raised again and the Plan of Salvation come to fruition? Jesus is not condemning defense of yourself or of others. What did Jesus mean when he said, "all who live by the sword will die by the sword" then? When the verse is examined in the context of his teachings on morality, spirituality, and indeed within the context of the preceding and following verses, it's meaning is clear: If you live a life dedicated to violence, violence will consume your life. So, what *is* acceptable use of violence? Well, first we see an example of Jesus driving the money lenders out of the temple (Matt, Mark, & Jn. all record this event). Further, in John's account, Jesus (the Prince of Peace) actually uses a *weapon* to do so (a whip or "scourge"). So, it seems that Christ felt that some religious reasons were acceptable. Again in Luke 22, were we see Jesus telling his disciples to buy swords, it seems that the most likely reasons were either figurative or for purposes of self defense, to ward off robbers and protect your family during the dispersion. There are many places in the NT where a parent is enjoined to care for his family. How can a man "care for" his family and protect them from harm if he refuses to intervene in a violent situation? Does the Bible mean to say "Care for your family and protect them from harm unless it's a *person* trying to harm them?" Does it really mean "The person violently attacking your children is more valuable to God then your children themselves?" That would, of course, be in contradiction with many other verses. No, in my estimation, the Bible does not preclude the use of violence in certain situations, though it does seem to speak clearly about when it's appropriate and what's an acceptable frame of mind concerning the use of it. To be honest, the conundrum that I see more often expressed from Christian Martial Artists is "what about all this eastern mystisism and meditation?" Peace favor your sword --- "In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or knowledge of their use." -Achille Marozzo, 1536 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest