Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 03:05:05 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #448 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Are there any Christians on the list? (Ates, Michelle (ATESML)) 2. TKD tournaments (Joe Gorges) 3. To Ki, or Not to Ki...Part Trois (Stovall, Craig) 4. Re: TKD tournaments (Ray Terry) 5. Christianity and Martial arts (Chris Holmes) 6. Re: Christians and ki, what's the problem (Klaas Barends) 7. RE: Kirk's Discussion (Dunn, Danny J GARRISON) 8. Exercises (Stovall, Craig) 9. RE: religion (Wallace, John) 10. Re: TKD training while pregnant (TKDgalSamm@aol.com) 11. KIM Un-yong, In-out-in again (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Ates, Michelle (ATESML)" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:51:04 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Are there any Christians on the list? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I am a Christian martial artist. I feel Christian's with the right mind set can learn from martial arts about ones journey as a Christian. Meaning the basic concept of when you accept Christ your are in essence like a white belt and through furthering your relationship with Jesus and learning more about him and his desires for us that you will mature and graduate from one belt to the next with the ultimate being to become a black belt in Christ living with him eternally! Another example would be some of the verses I use in my Tang Soo Do classes White Belts - Fix your eyes on the Lord Hebrews 12:2 (The most a baby Christian can do at this level is fix their eyes on Jesus and let him guide them) Orange Belts - I have come such that you might have life and that you might have life more abundantly. John 10:10 (Now that they know who to fix their eyes upon they can truly begin to understand that their life is much richer if they don't loose site of Christ) Green - If you refuse to take up your cross and follow me you are not worthy of being mine. If you cling to your life you will loose it but if you give it up for me you will find it. Matthew 10:38-39 (With basic stepping stones beginning to take root now a Christian must be like a teenager and make the decision to follow Christ even in the face of adversity. Realizing that the only way to have eternal life with Christ is to follow him always with a burning desire, which will result in true growth and maturity) Black - The fruit of the spirit is love joy peace long suffering gentleness goodness faith meekness temperance against such there is no law. From the book of Galatians (A mature Christian that has been walking the walk for some time and encompasses all those qualities required by Christ for they realize that there is no law any man can make that will stop them from worshiping God and sharing the love of his son with Jesus Christ! Every step this person takes without speaking is different than that of the world an extremely powerful yet controlled...controlled by Christ.) Rev. Michelle L. Ates Livin 4HIM Ministries - Martial Arts Program Rulivin4him@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Joe Gorges" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:50:52 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD tournaments Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Does anyone know of any olympic style Tae Kwon Do tournaments in or around the Wisconsin area? I find it hard to find any around this area. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Respectfully, Joe _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:11:33 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] To Ki, or Not to Ki...Part Trois Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This is good stuff. Randall...I think if you and I were locked in a room somewhere we'd either eventually become best of friends, or try to strangle each other to death. I appreciate the wealth of knowledge you seem to have on this subject...my only problem is that your answers have only left me with more questions. <<>> They got a web address? How can one obtain some of the more definitive abstracts? <<>> Well, the only thing amazing about ki (in my opinion) is that a lot of people seem to know everything and nothing about it at the same time. Yes, our modern society uses a lot of energy based systems. What's that got to do with ki? Are you saying that ki is energy? Fine. What type of energy is it? Chemical, electrical, nuclear, potential, kinetic, or vanilla? All of these and none...all at the same time...a riddle wrapped inside a quantum enigma? There are reams of technical and scientific literature that one could use to educate oneself on how a TV or cell phone works. If ki is so commonplace, and fits so well into the "brave new quantum world" then it must be easy to explain. So far I haven't seen an adequate explanation. The fact that I can watch 'Friends' every Tuesday night, and talk to people all over the globe with Instant Messenger doesn't automatically lead one to the existence of ki. <<>> Now, you must admit that's a bit of a reach. Electricity can certainly be seen and felt, and its properties are well documented by scientists and engineers in every corner of the globe. The wind...why does everybody always use that one? I can feel the wind, and I know that it is the result of molecular movement. God? If he/she is "real"...then yes, I should certainly be able to experience God with any of my five senses. So, you tell me to go "experience" ki. Give me a simple ki exercise to perform, and I ensure you that will try it. <<>> So...does that mean I can skip reading the 1,600 abstracts? <<>> How do you know this? The term "follows" would imply movement. How do you quantify movement without being able to establish position? How do you establish position without being able to MEASURE? What's the difference between the mind, and the conscious mind? It's not fair for you to challenge me to "measure an experience" in one breath, and then throw around concepts like "mind" and "conscious mind" as if we were all in agreement as to what that means. How do you KNOW there is a correlation between "mind activity" and "ki movement" if we can't measure EITHER ONE OF THESE THINGS? <<>> Ohhhhhhh, let's not go and create barriers where none exists. This is not the old "the body is manifest while the mind is transcendent" party line, is it? Thought and emotion reside in the brain, the brain is a PHYSICAL construct, therefore all experience is "physical". I don't believe we have a "physical part", and a "mental part". What we experience as "the mind" is actually a physical process. A complex and amazing physical process that we haven't even begun to understand, but a physical process, nonetheless. So, if ki/chi/prana really exists then the stuff is manifest in a physical sense...it doesn't reside in the little invisible cloud hovering over my noggin where all my thoughts, beliefs, and emotions reside. Brings me back to that whole measurement thing. <<>> Not sure what you are referring to as "vital energy". More info? <<>> Bold statement. Proof? <<>> Then if ki is just kinetic energy...I agree and we can stop this discussion. If not, where's the smoking gun? I'm sorry but "more" implies that ki can be quantified. If so, then how do you do this? If not, then your statement is without merit. Does the seashore have a million volts of ki per cubic inch of matter, versus a small pond that only has a thousand volts? How do you know? Oh that's right...you just feeeellll it. I'm sorry, but this sounds like metaphysical mumbo-jumbo (at least to my monkey brain). <<>> Again, measurement is implied. How do you do it? How is it quantified? How is correlation established? Blood flow can also be restricted by the same things...yes? Can I measure blood flow? Yep. Can you measure ki flow? I dunno. If you can, then how? If not, then how do you know that bending one's wrist restricts ki? Because its written in an ancient Chinese taxt? <<>> Why didn't just say so to begin with? Ki is a metaphor. So, let me see if I get this straight? If I bend my wrist or strain my muscles, then the METAPHOR that is ki will be restricted. The binding force at the point where energy creates matter is a metaphor. There's more metaphor at the seashore than there is at the point that water flows out of my garden hose. The conscious mind cannot direct the metaphor, but the metaphor follows the mind. No, actually I think I'm the one that doesn't follow. <<>> Well, now we've moved over to brain wave function haven't we? I'm no expert, but I know that sports doctors and psychologists have now begun extensive research on the relation between brain wave function and sports performance. In a nutshell, the brain functions differently at moments that require intense concentration. Watched a documentary one time (love that Discovery channel) where doctors measured the brain wave patterns of target shooters. Their brains would begin to emit alpha waves in the moments just before pulling the trigger. This resulting in a remarkable steadying effect of the shooter's hand as they zeroed in on the target. Interestingly enough, they did similar measurements on a karateka breaking bricks. The same alpha wave patterns were emitted moments before the strike. So here, we have quantifiable and observable data of a PHYSICAL phenomenon (there I go with that whole "mind and body are one" jive). I'm fine with that. We don't fully understand it yet, and we may never understand it. But at the same time we at least have a foundation upon which to build. We have brain wave patterns that can be measured and categorized (alpha waves versus whatever other kind of waves), and correlated with a specific physical performance which can in turn be measured and categorized (he either hit the target, or he didn't). What's the foundation for ki? The fact that you feel better when you breathe a certain way, and move your body in a certain fashion? The fact that Chinese people have been sticking needles in each other for 8 million years, and claiming that it is manipulating chi? Can we admit that we are just a WEE bit emotionally (and perhaps financially) invested in this whole "ki thing" holding water? Let me be perfectly clear...I am VERY open to the fact that ki exists. My mind is not closed to the possibility...not in the least. If there is something out there (or in here) that I can tap into that will increase the quality (oops, can't measure it) of my life...brother, count me in. What I am not open to is perpetuating belief systems around metaphysical constants (or immeasurable physical constants) for which there is absolutely no proof other than "Well, just trust me". As Cuba Gooding Jr. said, "JEEERRRRYYYYY...SHOW ME DA MONEY!!!!!" Craig "Smart Monkey" Stovall --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] TKD tournaments To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 08:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Does anyone know of any olympic style Tae Kwon Do tournaments in or around > the Wisconsin area? I find it hard to find any around this area. Any help > would be greatly appreciated! Check http://ohiotkd.net/DDEvents.html to see if any appear. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Chris Holmes" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:42:21 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Christianity and Martial arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Vance, There is a good article discussing Christianity and Martial arts by a Mr. Orlando. I think Mr. Terry has it posted somewhere on the resource site. I don't remember how much it discussed Ki but I do remember it was very well written. Good Luck, Chris Holmes Christian-Martial Artist _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 18:40:40 +0200 From: Klaas Barends To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Christians and ki, what's the problem Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi, I'm a bit suprised about this 'Christians and MA discussion'. What is the problem?????? And especially, what is the problem with the concept of ki??? I'm a-religious, can some of the christians on this list please enlighten me? -- Kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Dunn, Danny J GARRISON" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:37:55 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Kirk's Discussion Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Kirk, Well done!! Thank you!!! Danny Dunn --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Stovall, Craig" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 13:27:23 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Exercises Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I think we've had some brief discussion about Matt Furey and his Combat Conditioning exercises here before. Can some of you exercise gurus take a look at the pics at the link provided. I'm especially interested in the opinions of anyone with experience or education in the fields of exercise physiology, orthopedics, or chiropractic. But hey...I don't require letters behind your name to value your opinion, so please chime in one and all. http://www.mattfurey.com/exercises.html I'm particularly interested in opinions related to the first and last exercise. On the squat, please notice that the knees are well in front of the feet. Conventional wisdom says that this is a no-no, correct? Opinions, facts, suspicions? Will these types of squats eventually lead to knee damage if done in sufficient numbers? If not, okay. If so, then why? How about the bridge? Keep in mind that he advocates working up until the point that you can hold this position for 3 minutes. I can actually touch my nose to the mat with this type of bridging, but ONLY with hand support. I feel like my neck would break if I tried it without the hands. Any Chiropractors out there? Is it insane to do this kind of movement? What's the potential for injury here...even assuming that you worked at it very slowly, and didn't try to do a 3-minute no hands bridge on the first night? Craig "Maybe I should try Pilates, instead" Stovall --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Wallace, John" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] religion Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 12:40:52 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Sir: While its true that some esoteric branches of the Arts are steeped in mysticism, its far from the reality of Martial Arts as practiced in America. If anything, the opposite is true - people are stripping the physical techniques out of the various arts, combining them and calling them "Professor Blow's Tactical System" and teaching them in an environment that takes no moral stance, other than legal ramifications. As always, the middle path makes the most sense to me, a California Catholic (and apparently latent buddhist, given my fondness for the middle Way :) This topic is actually pretty hoary, it gets trotted out every six months or so. Go to Ray's archives at http://www.martialartsresource.com/korean/search/search.cgi There has been some very profound and entertaining writing on this in the past. -John W. I Dan TKD Fremont, CA -----Original Message----- From: Alastair Vance [mailto:avance@cts-eur.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 1:20 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] religion It seems to most people Martial Arts is more than just fighting. It's a way of thinking. It involves meditation, and the art is often originated or steeped in Eastern religion/mysticism etc. These are the areas I felt may be incompatible with my beliefs. I have only been to TKD for a week now (2 classes) but have yet to see anything I have a problem with. It's when I read the Ki topic on this mailing list that I started to think. Alastair. -----Original Message----- From: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net [mailto:the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net] Sent: 18 September 2002 01:29 To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] religion I find the question of "can you be a Christian and become a Black belt?" interesting. What in the world does religion have to do with the martial arts. Each individual accepts learning in their own way. Whether you call that religion, philosophy, feeling, intuition, Tibetan gofer throwing or Ki, it really does not matter. Is one religion better than the other, is one martial art better than another, only to the individual that is concerned. IMHO it is best to learn your religious beliefs from your family and your martial arts from a qualified individual that YOU respect and trust. RichGet more from the Web. 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Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release Date: 9/9/2002 --__--__-- Message: 10 From: TKDgalSamm@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 17:30:21 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: TKD training while pregnant Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 9/17/2002 6:18:44 PM Central Daylight Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > "Hi to all! > I know this may sound like a dumb question, but I'd > like to find out if anyone has information on how far > into pregnancy I can or should keep on training. > > I just found out I'm pregnant, and I plan to ask my > instructor to let me skip the sparring sessions, but I > don't want to stop training altogether if I can manage > it. > When I was pregnant, my doctor said NO TRAINING period. He said the back is more likely to sustain to injury because the body is preparing for carrying the baby. It broke my heart to stop training ... but even WORSE I couldn't go back for SIX weeks after the baby was born because I had a c-section! You'd better check with a OB/GYN first! Congratulations! Respectfully, Loretta --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 18:34:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] KIM Un-yong, In-out-in again Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In the recent issue of WTF Taekwondo, WTF Offical Quarterly Magazine, Summer 2002, No. 83, the profiles of the Executive Council Members for 2002-2005 are given. Dr. Kim, Un-yong is again listed as the President. You may recall that Dr. Kim appeared to be out of office as reported in one or more Korean newspapers and via other sources. I continued to see his name mentioned in earlier issues of the WTF magazine, but I just figured it was due to the backend schedule typically seen in the print industry. It appears that Dr. Kim was never really out, or has been pulled back in... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest