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<<------------------   The_Dojang mailing list   ------------------>>

Serving the Internet since June 1994.
Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource

The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts.

See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine
for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com

Pil Seung!

Today's Topics:

   1. Exercises (Brian Beach)
   2. To ki or not to ki? (Randall Sexton)
   3. Qigong Institute (Randall Sexton)
   4. Ki stuff (Randall Sexton)
   5. RE:Bible Stuff (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov)
   6. ki (michael tomlinson)
   7. Let's try this again-TKD & Pregnancy (Mary Braud)
   8. exercise (Garrett, Bobbea)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 00:21:31 -0400
From: Brian Beach <brian.beach@verizon.net>
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Subject: [The_Dojang] Exercises
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Craig, I don't know if the bridging exercises are good for you or not 
but I did them all through high school for wrestling and football. They 
didn't seem to have any ill effect but at 14-18 does anything?

Brian

--__--__--

Message: 2
From: "Randall Sexton" <txhapkido@thegateway.net>
To: <the_dojang@martialartsresource.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 23:29:33 -0500
Subject: [The_Dojang] To ki or not to ki?
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

<<<This is good stuff.

Randall...I think if you and I were locked in a room somewhere we'd either
eventually become best of friends, or try to strangle each other to death.>>>

My ki is stronger than your ki!

<<<I appreciate the wealth of knowledge you seem to have on this subject...my
only problem is that your answers have only left me with more questions.>>>

Allright you are getting there...Houston, we have progress! "The more I tried
to discover what might be important about the phenomen of qi, the less I am
persuaded that qi is the point." Anne Harrington


<<<They got a web address?  How can one obtain some of the more definitive
abstracts?>>>

http://www.qigonginstitute.org/QigongInstitute.html

<<<We use energy based sciences all the time, ie, TV, cell phones, internet
so what's so amazing about ki?>>>

<<< If ki is so commonplace, and fits so well into the "brave new quantum
world" then it
must be easy to explain.  So far I haven't seen an adequate explanation.>>>


Here's some books:

Inner Bridges: A Guide to Energy Movement and Body Structure by Fritz
Frederick Smith, M.D.
Virtual Medicine Dr. Keith Scott-Mumby
The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and
Eastern Mysticism


<<<Give me a simple ki exercise to perform, and I ensure you that will try
it.>>>

Get a hammer and hit yourself in the head 3 times...just kidding!

Here's some we did Wed. in class. My left knee was hurting and I had 15
students run their hands over my knees without touching and then tell me which
one was hurting. About 90% got it correct. One student had bruises after a car
wreak and most students could feel the difference between healthy and damaged
tissue. I had them stand facing a white wall with the backs of their hands
touching the wall, or almost touching with finger tips slightly apart. Then
they will "pull and push" finger tips close and apart and try to see the
energy between. Some could see nothing, others did not want to come off the
wall! Ki flows where awareness goes. Slap your hands together (just a quick
way to get your awareness there) and hold your hands near someone else and see
if they can feel you.  Or hold your hands slightly apart and feel the qi-ball.
don't try, just experience. In other words don't strain yourself trying to
shoot energy into anyone. Let me know if you ned more.



<<<So...does that mean I can skip reading the 1,600 abstracts?>>>

No, cause you still have questions. However, in one study (don't know if it is
in the Institute's database or not, human brain cells (used to eliminate any
"living people" bias) show increased growth in petri dishes when qigong
masters "treated" the dishes with external qi treatments. this reasersch was
done by Garret Yount, Ph.D. a molecular neuroscientist.



<<<  How do you KNOW there is a correlation between "mind activity" and "ki
movement" if we can't measure EITHER ONE OF THESE THINGS?>>>


Ki movement is easily measured (and experienced); the "mind" however is still
baffling people!


<<<Then if ki is just kinetic energy...I agree and we can stop this
discussion.
If not, where's the smoking gun? >>>

Hawaii (Big Island) has the highest concentration of ki in the world due to
the volvcanoes. Don't know how they measured it. Will try to find out.


<<<Why didn't just say so to begin with?  Ki is a metaphor.>>>

Cause it is and it isn't.


<<<No, actually I think I'm the one that doesn't follow.>

Don't try too hard. Want a story?  Martial art student ask how long it takes
to master his art. Master says, "10 years." Student asks, "What if I double up
on my training time?" Master replies, "20 years."


<<<Well, now we've moved over to brain wave function haven't we?>>>

Easy since ki is in the brain also!


<<<So here, we have quantifiable and observable data of a PHYSICAL phenomenon
(there I go with that whole "mind and body are one" jive).  I'm fine with
that.  We don't fully understand it yet, and we may never understand it.
But at the same time we at least have a foundation upon which to build.  We
have brain wave patterns that can be measured and categorized (alpha waves
versus whatever other kind of waves), and correlated with a specific
physical performance which can in turn be measured and categorized (he
either hit the target, or he didn't).>>>


Are you suggesting hitting the target was a goal? So crude an activity!


<<<What's the foundation for ki?  The fact that you feel better when you
breathe a certain way, and move your body in a certain fashion? >>>

You can move your body all kinds of ways and since you are "opening" up the
meridians, you are allowing for the free flow of ki and becoming a healthy
dude. Alberto Villoldo, Ph.D who studied shamans in Peru and became one, tells
the story of how he watched a shaman press "points" on a women's back who was
suffering from back pain. When Dr. Villoldo ask him how he knew where to
press, he said that he could see the "rivers of energy" and where the blocks
were. Dr. Villoldo had him draw the "rivers of energy" on his body with
lipstick and then took photos. Back in the states, he compared the drawings
with meridian charts and they were exact. The shaman had never heard of
traditional Chinese medicine or meridians.


Can we admit that we are just a WEE bit emotionally (and perhaps
financially) invested in this whole "ki thing" holding water?  Let me be
perfectly clear...I am VERY open to the fact that ki exists.  My mind is not
closed to the possibility...not in the least.  If there is something out
there (or in here) that I can tap into that will increase the quality (oops,
can't measure it) of my life...brother, count me in.  What I am not open to
is perpetuating belief systems around metaphysical constants (or
immeasurable physical constants) for which there is absolutely no proof
other than "Well, just trust me".


I get more emotional about other things; just helping out on this board.
(However, there are "ki tricks" where you can make money fooling people
willing to give up their dollars.) 30 years in Western healthcare and 12 or so
in Eastern arts allows me to walk both worlds. One is more boring than the
other. You gotta experience it then you won't be so keen on measuring it
(unless you are a scientist and into those activities). You may not believe in
ghosts till you see one! I guess you don't want to hear about the "experience"
me and 2 other relatively sane people had in a hospital one night. The fact
that you are open means a lot. I guess I still question some things when the
rational part of my brain kicks in even though I know "I felt that!'

These 2 books I found hard to believe.

Nei Kung: The Secret Teaching of the Warrior Sages and The Magus of
Java:Teachings of an Authentic Taoist Immortal both by Kosta Danos. I had a
qigong maste at school, Dr. Wu read the books and give me his opinion. He said
that many of the old teachings have been lost because young folks don't want
to put in the effort to train.


<<<As Cuba Gooding Jr. said, "JEEERRRRYYYYY...SHOW ME DA MONEY!!!!!">>>

No! I don't make enough!

Craig "Smart Monkey" Stovall

Some questions not answered cause you'll find the answers in some of the
books. Here are some more definitions of the Japanese character for ki:

spirit, mind, soul, heart, intention, bent, interest, mood, feeling, temper,
disposition, nature, care, attention, air, atmosphere, flavor, odor, energy,
essence, indications, symptoms, touch, dash, shade, trace, spark, flash,
suspicion.

My ki is waning...got to go to bed.

Randall Sexton
www.laughinghara.com

"I have never waited for anything the way I've waited for today, when nothing
will happen." Marguerite Duras

--__--__--

Message: 3
From: "Randall Sexton" <txhapkido@thegateway.net>
To: <the_dojang@martialartsresource.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 23:34:11 -0500
Subject: [The_Dojang] Qigong Institute
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Here's the home page of the qigong institute http://www.qigonginstitute.org/



Randall Sexton
www.laughinghara.com

"I have never waited for anything the way I've waited for today, when nothing
will happen." Marguerite Duras

--__--__--

Message: 4
From: "Randall Sexton" <txhapkido@thegateway.net>
To: <the_dojang@martialartsresource.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 23:44:51 -0500
Subject: [The_Dojang] Ki stuff
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Danny Dunn wrote...


<<<As for ki, simply because it is not something most people are used to
dealing
with or even familiar with doesn't mean it has unchristian tones or meanings.
I
personally believe that there are still things that we haven't developed the
science to understand.  Yes, I am trained as a scientist.  There are many
things
that are intuitively understood to happen by people before science can be
used
to understand and explain it.  Ki is one of them.  From my own training, I
know
that it exists and that its use can be cultivated with appropriate
training.>>.

There are also many drugs that are given to patients with the knowledge that
they have certain results, but the actions are unknown. So why not ki?


<<<Its been my experience that those are folks that fill in a lack of
knowledge and
abilities with stories.>>>

Keep in mind that many martial artists of yesteryear were illerate (mispelled
on purpose!) and story telling was a means of communicating. It's still a good
way to remember things. I tell a story about some friends of mine who used to
get drunk and slowly slide off the side (I know there are no sides to a dome
home, just give me a break) of a dome home. If you relax you won't hurt
yourself. Stiffen up and you'll roll off. Now will you remember this story
more than if I just told you to relax!


Randall Sexton
www.laughinghara.com

"I have never waited for anything the way I've waited for today, when nothing
will happen." Marguerite Duras

--__--__--

Message: 5
From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 07:10:21 -0500
Subject: [The_Dojang] RE:Bible Stuff
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Dear Michelle: 

".....I am a Christian martial artist....." 

I am a little confused. This is a Korean Martial Art Net, and superficially
your post seems to address an overview of Christian acculturation utilizing
a learning paradigm often seen in martial art education (ie. the belt rank
system). Thats clever enough, but I am wondering about the actual purpose of
your post. Is this yet one more opportunity for Christian evangelism to be
propagated among a select population whether we want to listen to it or not?
I am wondering if you would care to sit through an extended post of mine
regarding how parallels that can be drawn between learning paradigms in MA
and the Sutras? Its not that I fault you for expressing yourself. I just
wonder if you gave any thought to the fact that this is an International Net
and that its readers include more than one nation, more than one faith, and
perhaps more than a few people find the introduction of evangelism into this
Net offensive and insensitive to their belief systems. In my own case I work
hard not to "preach" Buddhism and restrict my comments regarding my faith to
either direct questions or issues immediately germane to the discussion. By
way of suggestion, perhaps you could drop citing the Bible verses, return to
the Ki discussion, or take up my speculation on morality in the KMA rather
than organized religion. Just some thoughts. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce  

--__--__--

Message: 6
From: "michael tomlinson" <tomlinson_michael@hotmail.com>
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 12:16:24 +0000
Subject: [The_Dojang] ki
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Jeremy writes:
Assuming this were a trick he
could pull off, he would still have to be severely psychologically and
socially dysfunctional to want to trick us in the first place, especially
given the passion with which he explains the phenomena.""

I don't think he has to be a psychotic to want to do a trick on you.  In a 
lot of ways, Hapkido is a trick, you do things to people that others that 
aren't involved in it sometimes call a trick, and think it is strange and 
powerful, you say he demonstrated this "ki phenomena at the end of a bar in 
a drinking establishment?  IMHO this tells you something about how "he" 
might view this phenomenon, showing it off in a bar?  Wow, that is pretty 
out there for someone to demonstrate a ki exstension.  IMHO it is a trick, 
just like all the others in martial arts, laying on a bed of nails, 
unbendable arm, cutting the watermelon off the neck with a sword,,etc.. 
etc.. we have seen them over and over, no offense but just because you don't 
know the answer to it doesn't mean it isn't a trick, no disrespect intended 
with this post, I'm just saying to be critical of what you see, especially 
in instances like these when someone seems to be doing something seen as 
"superhuman".  Again I am not saying it isn't possible, but demonstrating 
this in a bar?
               Michael Tomlinson

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

--__--__--

Message: 7
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 08:20:53 -0500
From: Mary Braud <mbraud@fedex.com>
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Organization: Federal Express
Subject: [The_Dojang] Let's try this again-TKD & Pregnancy
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

I sent this last week, but I never did see it make the list... Most
likely a problem on my end.  I'll send this again and just hope that no
one is having to see it for the second time! :)

Thanks,
Mary
----------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Barbara,

I am currently pregnant too, and ironically, my instructor seems to be 
more concerned about my pregnancy than my doctor! :)

The doctor says not to let my heartrate get above 110 and no sparring.  
I can continue this as long as I'd like.  My instructor limits my 
jumping as well.  I still stretch, do forms, punch, kick, and all that 
good stuff, I am just careful about any contact.  Even in class when 
others are sparring, I sit and coach from the side.  

This means that I'll have to postpone beginning my test for 2nd Dan, but 
I'll do my best to stay active and not lose any memory!

Best wishes, and just enjoy the changes your body is going through.  
Keep up some exercise, though.  It will help you physically, as well as 
making it easier to get back into it full blast after the baby is born.

I'll be happy to communicate with you one-on-one throughout this time if 
you'd like.  Sometimes, it's nice knowing someone else who is going 
through the same thing as you!

Best Regards,
Mary Braud
mbraud@fedex.com

[demime 0.98e removed an attachment of type text/x-vcard which had a name of mbraud.vcf]

--__--__--

Message: 8
From: "Garrett, Bobbea" <bgarrett@bc.pitt.edu>
To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'"
  <the_dojang@martialartsresource.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 09:23:55 -0400
Subject: [The_Dojang] exercise
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Mr. Stovall,

I think the header of this web page states what it is! Incorrect Fitness &
Fighting Instruction   :)
I have had knee problems and was instructed to never go below a 90 degree
angle in a squat.

Bobbea

http://www.mattfurey.com/exercises.html
<http://www.mattfurey.com/exercises.html> 


--__--__--

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