Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 06:48:05 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #457 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Christian and martial arts (Mark Lynn) 2. Ki things (Mark Lynn) 3. Re: Mst. Peligrini (Scott F. Barnes) 4. RE: But Why? (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 5. Mst. Peligrini (Randall Sexton) 6. RE:Sparring Equiptment Thoughts (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 7. speed in Hapkido (michael tomlinson) 8. Re: RE:Sparring Equiptment Thoughts (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Mark Lynn" To: Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 22:51:55 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Christian and martial arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello everyone Just got caught up reading the digests and saw the posts on Ki and being a Christian in the martial arts. I figured I'm come out of lurk mode and introduce myself and comment on them. In the past when these subject matters come up I'm a couple of weeks behind so I just lurk. By way of introduction I'm a Christian and having been studying/training and teaching the martial arts for 21 years. I have basically trained in American TKD and Presas Arnis (the Filipino martial arts) receiving different black belt ranks in each. I have also studied at one time or another Wado ryu (Japanese karate), Kobudo, and American karate/kickboxing. My primary instructor in American TKD always leaned more toward the Japanese karate so even in learning the ITF forms I learned more Japanese terminology than Korean. I believe my lineage would be along the GM Jhoon Rhee (Texas style) but pretty far removed. I enjoy the martial arts and in fact next to my family and God it easily ranks 3rd in my life. While I still practice and help teach American TKD my main focus in the martial arts have been the FMA for the past 10 years. Since my main focus is on the FMA why am I posting on a Korean Martial art digest (like I said I generally just lurk) because I felt I might be able to contribute something on these threads. I believe that God has been directly involved in my studying the martial arts. My girlfriend (at the time) got me interested in TKD so I joined a program through the YMCA or something. When I joined a school (6 months later) I met my instructor (who I didn't know then was a believer as well) whom I followed to another school and finally over time to his dojo (sorry Bruce we have always called it that :) ) at his house. Where I worked out with other like minded martial artists over the next 20 years. Religion never was taught or really discussed but over time as relationships developed between us (students) I found out that several of us were Christians. Over the years these men have become closer than brothers to me even though now most of us have moved off, or jobs interfere with our training together as a group any more. And some of the people who trained with us God drew to himself as well who weren't believers when they first came there. Anyway I also met my wife when I taught a TKD class for the college I was attending (she was one of my students) and she is a Christian as well. Our instructor brought us all to black belt level and our experience at the dojo was a positive experience for us all. In fact the head of the TKD association that we are affiliated with is a believer. So with all of that, and much more I would answer yes you can be a believer and be in the martial arts. However studying the martial arts is not without it's pit falls in regards to being a Christian (or any follower/person for that matter). 1) (Here's one I (and I know some others have been too) have been struggling with over the past several years) When is enough enough? I mean I have been studying for 20 years, my body has changed over time so I no longer train as hard or as I use to. I no longer get into the jump kicks, kick boxing, body work etc. etc. which is part of the reason I gravitated to the FMAs. But if the goal was to learn self defense than I have achieved that goal many years ago. With a family now (we had kids late) I can no longer train as I use to, there are pressures from the job and family etc. etc. But I still feel the desire to train and teach. However taking the time away from my family, job, or my church shouldn't be the answer (although for me it sometimes is). Therefore I take away the time from training and I see my skills/conditioning slipping away over the years. 2) I believe the martial arts at its core is self centered. You are training to improve yourself and while this is not bad in a sense for a believer this can pose some problems. For instance how many (for lack of a better term) widowed karate spouses are out there (and I'm not referring to death). Due to one's commitment to the marital arts how many families have been disrupted, how many kids or spouses are neglected while we are out trying to perfect that kata, that kick, or how to clock the person in the head with that stick? How many martial artists do you know who are divorced and possibly the time spent away training, running the school, teaching, or attending seminars away from the family had some impact on the break up. If we are honest many of us here on the list probably know someone who fits in this category. So for the believer I ask what happened to taking up one's cross and following Him? Or dieing to one's self? Or putting others before yourself? etc. etc. 3) Exposure to the mysticism and idol worship. Generally I believe we all worship idols, be they people (GMs, Masters, Instructors etc. etc.), shrines in the dojo etc. etc. and it's easy to be caught up in it. And as believers we need to watch out for this since we need to realize these people are sinners just like the rest of us (even though some of them can do some pretty amazing stuff). And the mysticism comes in many forms, I even had a deacon at a protestant church (he was a guest instructor at a seminar that I attended) get me interested in the whole ki/chi thing in regards to pressure point techniques. However he recommended that I read some books which went totally against the Christian view point. Last point (alright I have two). As a Christian believer I believe we (myself included) will stand before God and give an account of our lives, therefore I will also give an account for all of the time I have spent training in the MAs and not learning about Him. All of the missed church services where I could be giving praise and honor to God and instead I'm at a seminar training, all of the missed time with the family etc. etc. Also I believe we will be held accountable if we lead people astray as well, as the example of the deacon who suggested me to read some books that went totally against the Christian view of man. So we must be careful. This turned out much longer than I meant and I'm sorry if I went on to long. I'll send another post on the ki issue. Mark --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Mark Lynn" To: Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 22:53:40 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ki things Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Craig Stovall wrote >From my previous post the whole Ki thing really goes against my religious views however I have witnessed some weird things that supposedly relate to Ki and I'll pass them on. Maybe someone could shed some light onto them. 1) At a Thai boxing seminar a friend of mine was "tight". So the instructor had him stand facing a wall (with the instructor standing behind him out of sight about 10 feet away) and the instructor then moved his hands downward from the top of his spine to about the middle of his back, then he brought his hands up from the feet towards the middle of his back. Now as he was doing this you could see my friend start to relax but then he would catch himself and straighten himself back up. Finally the instructor got some people to stand behind him and catch him as he did the same motions and then pulled his hands back intowards himself thus causing my friend to fall backwards as if he was pulled by a string. It freaked him out to say the least. Naturally when the instructor asked if anyone else was tight I being the skeptic as I am raised my hand high. All I know was that it felt like a stream of energy came from the top of my head/shoulders and streamed down my spine as it also rose up from my feet to my center and from there it felt as if it left the body and I was pulled back as if by a string. A visual picture would be like a whirlpool on a horizontal plane coming from the body and coming to a tip/point somewhere behind me. And I did feel relaxed afterwards. Later that night the owner of the school who had never seen the trick/technique before tried this on a student of his (who was a police woman) at the school when only he and I were there (the police woman came by to check up noticing the light was on and she had not attended the seminar). He tried the same thing with her only from across the room. After she removed her equipment belt (it didn't work with it due to maybe the metal) I saw him actually pull her shoulder back from 20ft away. Again she couldn't see what he was doing but I was right next to him. There was no one to catch her so he didn't pull her back rather he pulled on the shoulders. Freaked her out as well. And as for this being a trick for me, WHY? I didn't know the instructor, didn't live anywhere near him (he was in OK and me in TX), why do this for my benefit? I believe he was trying like I would, to see if he could do it. 2) At a seminar with Master Hogan (Ryukyu Kempo) I have watched him knock out my neighbor who was the sponsoring instructor from across the room. Granted he stood there in place for a minute or so as Master Hogan concentrated and then my neighbor went down passed out. 3) Same seminar but Leon Jay showed a counter to a wrist lock that involved robbing a guys energy by sliding his foot next to theirs. Prior to this seminar I had been shown a similar technique which I will describe; however because my wife and I figured out a counter to it that changed the structure of the technique, I figured it was the structure or alignment of the body and not energy. But Mr. Jay showed a different variation with the placement of the foot that made me swing back to the energy side of things. >From a cross hand grab as the person goes to apply a wrist lock (I call it a S lock due to the bend of the elbow and the shape of the arm/wrist) as the person goes to apply the lock place your free hand about groin level (as if you were blocking a kick with the palm of your free hand) in between the lock and the floor and it should (if done right) stop the lock from being applied. You can also do a similar technique above the lock as well, anyway the instructor who showed me this technique told me I was interrupting the other person's flow of energy to the floor and thereby preventing the lock from coming on. However my wife and I countered this by kicking out the person's front leg who was trying to counter the lock. As soon as the leg moved the lock came on. So is this energy, or body structure? Is it mental? As I said Leon Jay showed something that made me think or swing back to the energy side of things but I can't really explain what or where he placed the foot. On this same lock this other instructor lightly touched my hand with two fingers and I again couldn't apply the lock. I was told he was bleeding off the energy or something. In closing there are allot of things I don't understand within the realm of martial arts. Some things I can explain away and some I can't, some things are better left for me not to understand. And these things are found in all systems, I've seen stuff like this in Thai boxing, Aikijitsu, Ryukyu Kempo, Isshin ryu, small circle jujitsu, etc. etc. and from reading this board it's in the KMA as well. Oh well I thought with the amount of people who have experience in Ki development/practice/use etc. etc. that maybe someone could shed some insight on 1 and 3. Especially #3 if anyone has any insight please post or email off line. Take care Mark --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 07:36:44 -0400 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: "Scott F. Barnes" Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Mst. Peligrini Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net There was a huge write-up about Grandmaster John Pellegrini in Taekwondo Times Magazine within the last two months. Unfortunately, I lent my copy to a friend. I believe there may be information here though http://www.ichf.com/ Scott >Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 07:01:28 -0700 (PDT) >From: J T >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] Mst. Peligrini >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >I am looking for information on Mst. Peligrini and his >martial art background in HKD. Anyone out there know >of it? --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 07:12:18 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: But Why? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear JT: "......I am looking for information on Mst. Peligrini and his martial art background in HKD. Anyone out there know of it?...." The latest issue of TKD TIMES has a multi-page spread. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Randall Sexton" To: Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 07:18:35 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Mst. Peligrini Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>>>I am looking for information on Mst. Peligrini and his martial art background in HKD. Anyone out there know of it?>>>>> Did you look under "correspondence schools?" Randall Sexton www.laughinghara.com "I have never waited for anything the way I've waited for today, when nothing will happen." Marguerite Duras --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 07:22:56 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE:Sparring Equiptment Thoughts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Terry: ".....The "control" concept is more common in the arts closer to Karate, e.g. Tang Soo Do. In TKD the hogu is worn to allow one to deliver (actually receive) full power punches and kicks (to the trunk area)....." Thanks for the response. Looking at protective equiptment in this light then, I really have to wonder at some of the choices that are made when it comes to sparring. For instance, if the intent is actually to hit a partner full-force, wouldn't coaches and instructors want to be a little more judicious in selecting who spars with whom as far as ability, size and strength? Along these same lines I wonder if the use of foam material is really the appropriate choice for this activity. Having used the dipped-foam equiptment on occasion I can't say that it did a whole lot to mitigate a blow intented to actually do damage. Seems like folks who are intersted in this kind of activity would use something more along the lines of the headgear, gloves and groin protection one sees in training sessions with boxers. I know that many TKD people have bragging rights about how few accidents there are at tournaments relative to other contact sports, but I had always assumed this was because there was control/restraint at work along with the equiptment. Comments anybody? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 13:14:09 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] speed in Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You must practice slow at first but then pick up your pace as you progress thru the ranks,, the MAIN reason for picking up your speed and power in your techniques are twofold,, 1, you have to build muscle memory and body movement that is effective against real threats,, this can only be done at high levels by going fast,,, 2. when you are attacked for real your adversary will be moving FAST!!! an attacker will NOT stand still for you while you go slow and figure it out,, DON'T PRACTICE TO BE GOOD IN THE DOJANG WITH YOUR FRIENDS!! PRACTICE TO BE GOOD ON THE STREET AGAINST PEOPLE THAT REALLY WANT TO HURT YOU!!! My two cents,, Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE:Sparring Equiptment Thoughts To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 06:42:48 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > strength? Along these same lines I wonder if the use of foam material is > really the appropriate choice for this activity. Having used the dipped-foam > equiptment on occasion I can't say that it did a whole lot to mitigate a > blow intented to actually do damage. Seems like folks who are intersted in > this kind of activity would use something more along the lines of the > headgear, gloves and groin protection one sees in training sessions with > boxers. Headgear and cups are worn. Gloves are not needed. Hoju are sufficiently protective. If you walk into a full force kick you'll still get hurt, but then them's the breaks... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest