Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 22:13:35 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #469 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Demonstration in Lincoln, NE... (J Thomas Howard) 2. RE: Honorary Belts (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 3. RE: Sorry 'bout that. (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 4. Bruce's sword questions (holy crap!) (A. Boyd) 5. RE: Where to start (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 6. Info Request (Chris Holmes) 7. JP, no more (Ray Terry) 8. another grits festival survived (Ray Terry) 9. Moja Kwan Moo Do Camp (Charles Richards) 10. 5 Elements (bredfield) 11. Korean Trip with GM Ji (G. Booth) 12. RE: Morgan's Post/Starting Over (Morgan James) 13. RE: Still troubled by kata (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 14. TSD Transfer (Charles Richards) 15. Joining with rannk (J T) --__--__-- Message: 1 To: "the_dojang" Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 08:20:21 -0500 (CDT) From: thomcat@binary.net (J Thomas Howard) Subject: [The_Dojang] Demonstration in Lincoln, NE... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just letting everyone know that I and some of my students in association with Lincoln City Libraries will be giving a demonstration/talk at Walt Branch Library in Lincoln, NE on October 5th at 2:30PM. The advertised topics are Hapkido and Self-Defense, with an emphasis on Women's Self-Defense. We'll give a general (VERY!) overview of martial arts, talk about Hapkido in specific for awhile, then talk about self-defense. We'll specify to women's self-defense after a bit, talking about ways and means, and spending some time making sure people understand that self-defense is a mindset, and that awareness is key, and that physical self-defense really is just a minor part of the whole thing. Then we'll say that Hapkido is excellent for self-defense anyway, even though physical self-defense is only about 5% of the self-defense scheme, and we'll talk about why that is, and what learning a martial art can do for you. It should be an interesting time---we are looking forward to it. If you are free that Saturday, and want something to do, please stop by. :) If you do stop by, please come up and introduce yourself afterwards---I always enjoy meeting dojang members. Thomas Howard Nebraska Hapkido Association ------------------------------------ thomcat@binary.net hapkido.4t.com "If you aren't modeling what you are teaching then you are teaching something else." --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 07:43:31 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Honorary Belts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Dakin: "....When are we going to start talking about honorary black belts for movie stars and politicians?...." As you mentioned, this gesture seems to be another case of shrewed business practice. When a celebrity comes to town he is often presented a key to the city --- which rarely unlocks anything practical. Its a symbolic gesture of trust and acceptance going back to the days when cities actually HAD gates and locks. If I had MY way there would be no such thing as "honorary" or "administrative" ranks or belts. But then, if I had MY way there would be no such thing as commercial schools or competitive tournaments. Problem is, nobody expects that when a person is given a symbolic BB that they will actually turn around to the public and represent what they were given as an actual guage of their skill level. And nobody would actually consider that some folks will award ranks to themselves so as to suggest that they have garnered greater positive regard from the community than they have. However, when a person begins to sell himself for money and prestige I see a slippery slope upon which it becomes easier and easier to exaggerate, embellish and misrepresent. It takes character not to go down this path. Some people have it and some don't. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 07:24:29 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Sorry 'bout that. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Vic: ".....Whatever we decide or don't about John Pellegrini, please respect the fact that there is an organization that uses "Modern Hapkido" in its title and we have no affiliation with Johh Pellegrini......" Oooppps. Sorry, Vic. I hope you know that my queries regarding the use of the term "Modern Hapkido" weren't meant to include your use of the same words as a title. What I was addressing was the use of the term "modern Hapkido" as a way of characterizing a particular approach which seems to be used to differentiate these practices from "traditional Hapkido". Sorry for any confusion. I still think that we HKD practitioners would be well-served by making a clearer distinction between what is meant when stating that one practices a "traditional" or a "modern form of the art. Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 09:56:54 -0400 (EDT) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Bruce's sword questions (holy crap!) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce wanted to know: 1) Who is Seung-San Dae Sun-Sa? I don't think I know. I will check some stuff I have sitting on my hard drive and get back to you on that. I have a suspicion that I have heard this name before. 1a) Jang Paek San is the name given to to the instructor of GM Kim Jeong Ho. This is pretty much a metaphorical character. This was brought to light and to the intentional embarrassment of both Founders of HDGD a few years ago. The Gicheon people and others like to circulate it and obviously the HDGD people do not. Strangely, I find that it reinforces my confidence in the curriculum of HDGD. As I understand it (and I could very easily - very easily - be wrong) Jang Paek San represents in the Federation advertising the mentorship in Gicheon which GM Kim Jeong Ho undertook and the instruction in Shimgumdo which Na Han-il undertook. The two men had a deep passion for sword work and sought it out where they could find it. They collected what they could from wherever they could and eventually developed a progressive curriculum which could take a student through all these various influences and into swordsmanship. The intent was two-fold and led to the initial split in the federation. They wanted to teach students the use of real swords and to develop their spirituality through meditation. The two men were in the strange position of being each others master and student as they shared what they knew. Na Han-il became famous and the kind and actions of the supporters of each man led to the actual split in the federation. In the public trial exposing the history of HDGD, the Gicheon and Shimgumdo people admitted to training the two men, and also state despite the tangible evidence that the curriculum in HDGD is not what they teach. 1e)I'm not sure what else to say about Kim Jeong Sung. He left the organization to teach the same curriculum with the difference that they introduce two sword techniques earlier. His organization's dojangs can be seen in and around Busan. 1f) When arts split in Korea one gets the Daehan moniker and the other gets the Hanguk one. That way they can keep the same English name (Korean) but all the locals who care can learn there is a difference. Haidong Gumdo split into Daehan Haidong Gumdo and Hanguk Haedong Kumdo. Kim Jeong Sung split from Daehan Haidong Gumdo. This latter split seems to have encouraged others to do the same - all of whom I must add have chosen to use the title World Haidong Gumdo Federation. *sigh* 1g) Kang Yeong-Wook is the author of the only decent text on HDGD. (The White Book, Korean only) I mean decent in the sense of "least bad". It's not a teaching aid and it has an agenda but it's nice collection of material for someone who knows it already and is fluent in Korean. 2) Gicheon or Gicheon Mu was brought out for the public after HDGD but truly seems to have existed before. Everything I have read about it is biased one way or the other and I haven't tried it myself so I will just say that you can see the connections to HDGD. 3) There is lots of information about Kim Chang Sik, founder of Shimgumdo out there in English. There's an easily accessible one from Amazon called Spiritual Dimensions in Martial Arts which profiles MA personalities. The author is Maliszewski. Basically,untrained monk, fasting on the mountain, visions of hundreds of forms, sword art based on meditation. 4) I know nothing about Kim Jae Il or anything beyond what you can see on the internet about this art. I do know that no martial artists I know talked about it last year and now people are. 5) I will ask my sabum about the movers and shakers in Kumdo and get back to you. That's all for now. I hope it's clear! Take care ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 07:52:49 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Where to start Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Richard: "......This is a matter I have had to deal with both myself and with students that have come into my dojang. I personally started over as a white belt after obtaining a 2nd degree previously. To be honest it was the best thing that could happen. I did not know the KSW forms, the self defence techniques, the principles and how they were applied, but I learned them and now have a better grasp of my previous training as well. ...." I think you may be mixing two different situations. If a person comes into my classes with a background in Hapkido there is much less reason to ask them to start over at a White Belt. If there background is in TKD/TSD there is probably more reason. Most people will come into a Hapkido class with various holes in their knowledge that need to be filled-in before they can move ahead. The greater the number of holes, the greater the reason to have them start at the bottom. I know there are plenty of TKD folks who can out-kick me. I also know that a great many of those same folks can't do a breakfall to save their butt! Knowing where to place these people in a new hierarchy is what makes being a teacher challenging sometimes. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Chris Holmes" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 10:44:37 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Info Request Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Sims, What are you wanting to know with regards to Han Mu Do? Dr. Kimm is still busy trying to finish his latest book(s). Ssirem may be an added event to the annual World Han Mu Do tournament. If you can be more specific I'll try to answer or get an answer to your questions. Han, Chris Holmes _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 10:48:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] JP, no more Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ok folks. We've talked enough about Mr. JP. Time to move on. We can beat up on him again in November... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang), eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 10:51:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] another grits festival survived Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Well, survived another one... The 2nd Annual Mojo Kwan Moo Do Seminar and Grits Festival was a success. The funnest thing tho, Georgia grits taste very similar to Mississippi grits. Wonder why? Seemed like all had fun. I know I did. Thanks to Master Richards for putting it on and to Mr. Clarke for putting me up. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 13:50:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] Moja Kwan Moo Do Camp Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear list, I'll be crawling out of deep lurk mode as we complete the second annual TSD/TKD training camp. A deep and humble bow goes out to Master Rich Hodder, Master Ray Terry, and Master Instructor Luc Ngyuen (sp?) for their sharing of knowledge, and Korean Martial arts brotherhood. Plans are already being made for the third annual on September 27, 2003 with an alternate date of September 20. Special thanks also to Chief Instructors Joe and Peg Clarke for hosting Master Terry. Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TangSooDo __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 16:57:43 -0400 From: bredfield Subject: [The_Dojang] 5 Elements Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I was going over the 5 elements / phases and was wondering if anyone knows the names of the elements in Romanised Korean or Hangul or a site that you could recommend where I could search ? Bernard --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 13:41:40 +1000 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: "G. Booth" Subject: [The_Dojang] Korean Trip with GM Ji Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just a quick note to the list about the up and coming Korea get together with Grandmaster Ji. I will be arriving into Seoul on the Morning of October 4th and departing on Monday the 7th. I look forward to catching up with Rick and Hal, as well as any other members of the list that are maybe making the trip or are currently in Korea while I am there. I will be staying at the Seoul Olympic Parktel which is the Hotel where Grandmaster Ji will be staying and holding the meetings, feel free to drop by and say hello. Regards Geoff Booth --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Morgan James To: 'Dojang Digest' Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 07:59:43 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Morgan's Post/Starting Over Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Charlie and Richard: Thanks to you two gentlemen who were so kind as to reply to my situation. I humbly respect both of your opinions and have decided to start them both as white belts IF they decide to join my school after all. It may step on their toes a little but as Charlie states, they came to MY doorstep. I pretty much made up my mind a little while back on starting them as white belts but wanted to see what advice I could get generated on this list. Charlie, I am located in Lewisburg, West Virginia. This is in Southeastern WV about 10 miles from the Virginia border on Interstate 64. From here I am 4 hours from Charlotte, NC; 5 hours from Washington, D.C. and 4 hours from Pittsburgh, PA. So, maybe this will give you a better idea of where I am located. Gotta get back to work... James Morgan GTKDA www.gtkda.com --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 08:01:12 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Still troubled by kata Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear James and Charles: "......They practice, IMHO, an unorthodox version of Tang Soo Do with a mix of Japanese Karate thrown in. They practice the Pyong Ahn forms along with Basai and a few other Japanese forms that I do not recognize. They also practice Ninjitsu techniques from time to time. Both gentlemen are very good at what they do and are very respectful of me for allowing them the opportunity to come and train in my dojang. Both gentlemen periodically communicate with their old instructor to keep up on technques and requirements for their next ranks. ......" I know that I have raised this issue once before but I don't remember if anyone actually responded. I am having a hard time understanding how KMA practitioners are reconciling the intermixing of Japanese and Korean tradition yet continuing to identify the result as Korean MA. Maybe this wouldn't be such a mystery to me except that so much seems to have been made of the terrible injustices visited on the Korean people by the occupying Japanese that I would think that the last thing anyone would want to have anything to do with would be the Japanese traditions. For instance, if a person absolutely HAD to practice "kata" I would think that they would go back to the Okinawan renditions of these exercises rather than blatantly borrow from the Japanese interpretations. Even more, how is it that noone goes back and revivifies the White Crane and other Southern Chinese precursors to these Forms? Traditionally the Koreans were always closer to the Chinese culture anyhow, how come there is not a great emphasis on Chinese forms? Taken a step farther, how is it that most KMA practitioners who DO use the Japanese Kata never seem to get past the more basic kata? If one were to shamelessly borrow from the Japanese traditions wouldn't you think that they would want to study the complete syllabus? Why not just find a Japanese style school and stick with THAT albeit with higher frequency of kicking usages. Maybe its just me but it would almost seem that this is a case where the Pelligrini approach to MA has won out in the long run, yes? FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 06:39:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] TSD Transfer Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Charlie, I fall somewhere between your GM and GM West. My transfers wear their existing belts, and are listed on my roles as 10th Gup (White Belt). At each test they are evaluated and issued the appropriate certificate for the material they know IN OUR SCHOOL. When they advance beyond the rank they are wearing a new belt and certificate are issued. I have found it's very discouraging to a true beginner to have the "new guy" to their left doing basics like an advanced student, and capable of attempting most of the advanced techniques. However, if they are say Green belt (transfer) they line up as the most junior green belt. This is just what works for me. Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TangSooDO __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 06:02:32 -0700 (PDT) From: J T To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Joining with rannk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jeff, I can see both yours and GM West's point on this. I personally start at a new school with a white belt and if the instructor tells me otherwise, I stay that way. Now this has an advantadge and disadvantadge. The advantadge part is that I don't step on any toes of the people who have worked their butts off to achieve their rank in that art, plus as a white belt, I can make white belt mistakes and still get away with it. :) However, when doing this, other white belts may be comparing themselves to me. This may lead to discouragement. "Geez, this guy is a white belt and his kicks a so much more cleaner than mine. I must really suck!" (This is not to say I have perfect kicks, I am just trying to make a point.). Now your way has an advantadge and disadvantadge as well. Coming in as a color belt or black belt, I would be able to jump right into the program. However, lower belts would expect me to know something that I have no idea about. This could discorage them as to thinking, this is my senior and he doesn't know how to fall correctly? Plus a person could remain stagnat in their ranking for a long time trying to catch up and this could discourage a person as well. Now if a Goju-ryu stylist balck belt came in to a TKD school. I can see keeping is rank. The techniques are similar and the philosophy is close. However, if that same person signed up in a HKD school, I'm sorry, but they would not be able to retain their blakc belt rank. Just my opinion. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest