Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 12:05:26 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #470 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. moaning and groaning (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 2. Korean Terminology (Linda Principato) 3. Hanmudo (Steve Kincade) 4. Demonstration... (J Thomas Howard) 5. Hapkido (Hapkido Self Defense Center) 6. Yahoo spam (Ray Terry) 7. Worthless Skills & training time (TNTcombatives@aol.com) 8. Chicago Gathering (Rudy Timmerman) 9. RCE (Bill Bleakley's Taekwondo) 10. Day One Results From Junior Worlds (fwd) (Ray Terry) 11. RE: Master Kim Jeong Sung "HDGD" (Sun Mu Kwan-USA) 12. Bruce and Charles Kross Kata (Charles Richards) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 09:13:34 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] moaning and groaning Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Can we please give it a rest folks? The last few digests have been filled with various flames and counterflames on the level of "My teacher better than your teacher." What a waste of time! One reason I'm not terribly worried about what the latest TKD Times article says is that most of them are worthless anyways. Occasionally they have an interview with an older master (ex. Choi Hong-Hi) that are really worthwhile, but that is not the norm. Martial arts these days seems to be a lot more about marketing (ie. "Martial Arts Professional") than about training. Anthony Boyd actually posted something of worth (Chungju International MA Festival) and I found his comments very enlightening.... " the sword stuff... was the same old crap" "I saw a young man bend a sword with his eye socket." "two horribly tragic Hapkido demonstrations" "two totally awesome elder practioners.... are still men of iron with decent mobility and speed." "they demonstrated introductory sword vs stick drills for gup ranks" "a mix of Dutch dancing, TKD and basic hosinsool" with "some really misapplied shield, axe and sword techniques" but "the demonstrators were in awesome shape." In other words, all of these demonstrators looked good, but weren't showing any fighting techniques of worth. That about sums up martial arts today, don't you think? A lot of big frogs in one very small pond. Now that I've completed my own "it's all bad" tirade, can we move on to sharing what is GOOD out there? For example, Anthony also left us hanging with his comment: > There were two interesting, non-contact bouts between two styles of Taekyon versus two > nationalities of Pencak Silat. As well as better same vs same bouts between the > practioners of the two styles of each. Anthony, I hope you're going to tell us more! What were the styles of silat? What techniques were they using? I would have loved to see harimau vs. t'aekkyeon! What organizations did the t'aekkyeon players come from? Last, does anyone have a good suggestion for head protection in free sparring? I'm fortunate enough to be training with two talented young guys. One is a slippery hapkido 1st dan and the other is 300 lb. Baguazhang guy. We like what I would call "controlled full-contact" but since I'm an old man (40 this year! I know Ray, Rudy, etc. -- I'm still a young pup to most of you!), I'm tired of broken noses. I'm looking at hockey helmets, Blue Max helmets, and police riot helmets. Have you guys trained with any of those? What are the plusses and minuses of each? Yours in the arts , Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Linda Principato" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 15:03:45 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Korean Terminology Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Regarding my question on the correct way to say "Thank You" in Korean, my instructor has us say it, "Ko mop sim nee dah" as opposed what seems to be the more common "Kam sa ham nee dah." The replies I received from many of you definitely helped to clear up my confusion. The obvious answer, of course, is to do as my instructor teaches us. :) I'm learning! My very best wishes to you all... Ko mop sim nee dah. Thank you! respectfully, linda ***** "Blessed are the flexible, for they shall not be bent out of shape!" _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Steve Kincade" To: Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:01:52 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hanmudo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce Sims asked about Han Mu Do people on the list, and the answer is we're here, but busy! Some of us went with Dr. Kimm to Korea and Japan last month, and I for one am still trying to catch up. By the way...I have a great picture of me sitting between GM Ji and GM Kimm having breakfast in Korea. Can I get that in a magazine? I learned eating techniques from them... Dojunim is still working on his book, and is still doing research. The good news is that his research always means we get to do new and different stuff. The bad news is that he doesn't have the time to do all the promotion necessary to generate the publicity and PR that's needed these days. So many systems, so little time. There will be a seminar at his headquarters' school in Baton Rouge on November 1, 2, and 3rd. This one will probably have a weapons flavor, and I will post some of the details when I find out more about them. Between now and then, he will be in Mexico and Holland for seminars. O a more personal note, much of this net has recently been devoted to a certain person who has enraged the Hapkido community, and I have nothing to add there, except to tell Mike Rowe that I admire his loyalty to his instructor and his respect to other board members. IMHO, you're a class act, Mike. Steve Kincade --__--__-- Message: 4 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 16:00:16 -0500 (CDT) From: thomcat@binary.net (J Thomas Howard) Subject: [The_Dojang] Demonstration... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sent this one awhile ago, but didn't see it---apologies to those who are having to read this again: ----------------- Just letting everyone know that I and some of my students in association with Lincoln City Libraries will be giving a demonstration/talk at Walt Branch Library in Lincoln, NE on October 5th at 2:30PM. The advertised topics are Hapkido and Self-Defense, with an emphasis on Women's Self-Defense. We'll give a general (VERY!) overview of martial arts, talk about Hapkido in specific for awhile, then talk about self-defense. We'll specify to women's self-defense after a bit, talking about ways and means, and spending some time making sure people understand that self-defense is a mindset, and that awareness is key, and that physical self-defense really is just a minor part of the whole thing. Then we'll say that Hapkido is excellent for self-defense anyway, even though physical self-defense is only about 5% of the self-defense scheme, and we'll talk about why that is, and what learning a martial art can do for you. It should be an interesting time---we are looking forward to it. If you are free that Saturday, and want something to do, please stop by. :) If you do stop by, please come up and introduce yourself afterwards---I always enjoy meeting dojang members. Thomas Howard Nebraska Hapkido Association ------------------------------------ thomcat@binary.net hapkido.4t.com "If you aren't modeling what you are teaching then you are teaching something else." --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" To: Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 17:14:43 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net For those who are perplexed about the current hapkido debate.... There are certain principles of basic motion that all hapkidoin (hapkido practitioners) should know. As with any martial art, people often confuse rank with training and have a tendency to be inpatient when it comes to their next promotion. Time in rank is significant and can often be judged when a technique is taught, performed or even discussed. Unfortunately, in our society (and others), there are individuals who will jump from one organization to another in order to bypass fundamental time requirements. They are few and far between, but they get the most attention for doing things many of us would not do, as it would be inappropriate. Every hapkido 8th or 9th dan I personally know or have trained with, can tell you about their training in the 60' and even earlier. They are not young, but they have forgotten more than most of know, and their vocabulary of technique is still amazing. To see someone of this rank who was a white belt when I was a 3rd or 4th dan and then does not have a grasp of the most basic motion in hapkido is perplexing and irritating. It is bothersome when I see what they are passing around as hapkido as it is an art I take pride in and have trained in for several decades. Often they will create a 'new style' because they really did not take the time to learn the technique properly; so therefore, it is no good and it is not in 'our system'. I am often asked what type or style of hapkido I teach and I just simply reply hapkido. As far as combat is concerned there are actually combat techniques known as military techniques (not to be confused the techniques of the style called combat hapkido). There are hapkido teachers on this group that used these techniques in actual military combat. When I teach the military techniques I let my students know that I did not learn these in combat, as I never served in the military (although I was born in the military), and that my teacher learned these techniques in actual combat. This is just my opinion...Jere R. Hilland (hapkido 5th dan) www.geocities.com/hapkiyukwonsul --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Yahoo spam Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Looks like some folks, such as me, may be getting spammed by some TournamentTKd group. Sorry about that. I'll try to get to the bottom of it ASAP!!! Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 20:54:10 -0400 From: TNTcombatives@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Worthless Skills & training time Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings All, I have read with interest all the back and forth on whose skills are better than whose, and this GM has been doing things longer than that GM etc. I share with you a thought and a story. Many of this worlds foremost masters started their own systems when they were just pups in the parent system. There are and have always been those that can learn MA extremely fast, and have an inate understanding of them....man, I hate those people..lol. They found an improved way (at least in their minds) of the way. Jeez, about 12 years ago(i'm starting to feel like a MA geezer), I had a guy come in and request & pay for 2 weeks of private instruction...about 2 hours a day. He told me that he had been practicing MA and TKD for about 3 years. He told me that he had never taken a lesson from anyone, but had learned from books, pracice w/friends and observation. His skills were a bit raw, but the essence of them was very good. I worked with him for the 2 weeks. He asked for me to place him in a local TKD tournament, and wanted to know at what level he could compete. He did not want to claim any rank, but wanted to compete with those of his skill level. When the tournament date came, I entered him in the brown/red belt division. In hindsight, I should have put him in the low black belt division, because he fought 7 or 8 matches and won them all very decisively. Feeling curious, I asked around to area instructors to see if he had been trained by any of them. Nope. He was just out of high school, and lived in the area. I found his parents and talked with them. They said he had been buying books for a few years and pracicing in the back yard and garage. They said he had never taken a lesson from anyone. A couple years ago, I saw the guy again at a local MA demo. He had decided to take up SulSa-do(sp) with a local master. He was a 5th dan. I'm not advocating one way or another...but some people can be at a high level without a lot of formal training. IMHO. Take Care, Mark Gajdostik --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 20:50:20 -0400 From: "Rudy Timmerman" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Chicago Gathering Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jeremy writes: > This weekend was one of the most excellent displays of > martial art brotherhood and sisterhood around. Hello Jeremy: Thanks for the cudos. I truly enjoyed the gathering, and I must mention that Masters Gavin and Stigall did a tremendous job in making this thing work as well as it did. Hangin around afterwards is a great way to learn! Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 10:02:18 -0400 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: "Bill Bleakley's Taekwondo" Subject: [The_Dojang] RCE Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Does anyone have a schedule of RCE's (regional center excellence) or have heard of any upcoming seminars. Thank you Bill Bill Bleakley Westport Academy Of Taekwondo 275-50 Post Road East Playhouse Square Westport, CT 06880 Tel # (203) 341-0311 Fax # (203) 834-0300 Web Site: http://www.geocities.com/bbtkd --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 08:13:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Day One Results From Junior Worlds (fwd) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarding... Day One Results From Junior Worlds in Greece Female Heavy - Lauren Cahoon First Round – Lost to Germany (1-2) Male Fin - Christopher Kae – BRONZE MEDAL First Round – Beat India (No Show) Second Round – Beat France (2-2 Decision) Quarter Finals – Beat Kuwait (4-1) Semi Finals – Lost to Jordan (4-5) Male Fly - James Howe II First Round – Beat Belgium (7-2) Second Round – Beat Germany (7-4) Quarter Finals – Lost to Chinese Taipei (1-2) United State Taekwondo Union 1 Olympic Plaza Colorado Springs, CO 80909 --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:37:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Sun Mu Kwan-USA To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Master Kim Jeong Sung "HDGD" Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I met him last November while I was training in Busan. He's very close with my friend who's an IHF Sun Mu Kwan master. He gave me his twin sword book and I have no idea about HDGD nor the twin sword hyung's. Nice guy but very business minded as well. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:56:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Bruce and Charles Kross Kata Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dragged out of lurk mode kicking and screaming into a dialogue with Bruce :-)... ----------------------------------------------------------------- I am having a hard time understanding how KMA practitioners are reconciling the intermixing of Japanese and Korean tradition yet continuing to identify the result as Korean MA. Maybe this wouldn't be such a mystery to me except that so much seems to have been made of the terrible injustices visited on the Korean people by the occupying Japanese that I would think that the last thing anyone would want to have anything to do with would be the Japanese traditions. ---------------------------------------------------------------- GM Hwang Kee tried to be very Korean with his Chinese influenced Hwa Soo Do. Result no interest....switched to Tang Soo Do and the result was very popular. Like you Bruce I am surprised, but it just goes to show you how beginners will stick with what's more recognizable rather than what might be better functionally.....I think each system has adsorbed what is usefull and added a little of their heritage...sport TKD with it's higher stances and kicks above the waist (still Karate based), Hapkido with it's relationship to Aikido and Chin Na, and Tang Soo Do with it's Deep stances and hip rotation (added to Karate)... I suspect regardless of the political climate, each system's founder wanted to preserve some of their instructor's root art, while enhancing it in their own way. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For instance, if a person absolutely HAD to practice "kata" I would think that they would go back to the Okinawan renditions of these exercises rather than blatantly borrow from the Japanese interpretations. ------------------------------------------------------------------ OK here you and I are close as my Hyung look more like Kata and Master Mac will often remind me I'm embellishing a Hyung with an Oki/Jap flavour.... ----------------------------------------------------------------- Even more, how is it that noone goes back and revivifies the White Crane and other Southern Chinese precursors to these Forms? ---------------------------------------------------------- Don't rush to say none as folks like Master Mac and others are researching the Dam Tui patterns for possible re-introduction into their program... --------------------------------------------------------------- Traditionally the Koreans were always closer to the Chinese culture anyhow, how come there is not a great emphasis on Chinese forms? --------------------------------------------------------------- I'm no expert, but the KSW and Han Mu Do patterns have a very Chinese feel to them....... -------------------------------------------------------------- Taken a step farther, how is it that most KMA practitioners who DO use the Japanese Kata never seem to get past the more basic kata? If one were to shamelessly borrow from the Japanese traditions wouldn't you think that they would want to study the complete syllabus? ------------------------------------------------------------------- Lost me on that one, I and many other TSD players study the complete 19 Hyungs Funakoshi taught plus Rho Hai. You are correct that we do not perform Sanchin. I think you may be eluding to some TKD schools that have deep roots and thus may still perform the Pyung Ahn sets, and even Bassai, Chulgi I (Naifanji) and others. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Why not just find a Japanese style school and stick with THAT albeit with higher frequency of kicking usages. Maybe its just me but it would almost seem that this is a case where the Pelligrini approach to MA has won out in the long run, yes? FWIW. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Again Bruce I would say that some of us have found a way to preserve what we love about our instructor's roots (instructor preference) and enhance it with what we feel are missing pieces, or even just adding enhancements (adsorb what is usefull). Yours in Jung Do, Charles R. Moja Kwan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest