Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 09:27:06 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #472 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Korean Terminology (John Johnson) 2. Greetings from Tulsa (Ken McDonough) 3. Kuk Ki Sool (Sun Mu Kwan-USA) 4. Re: RE: [The_Dojang] Starting Over (Lee Fisk) 5. Charles And Bruce Kata Stuff (Charles Veuleman) 6. Re: JP, Mike Rowe, Mr. Miyagi, etc. (ABurrese@aol.com) 7. silat(s) versus taekkyon(s) (A. Boyd) 8. Sticky Hands and Kuk Sool (Rich) 9. Re: RE: [The_Dojang] Starting Over (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "John Johnson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Korean Terminology Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 08:37:34 +0000 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Linda, I'm not sure what others have told you, so I might as well through in my two-cents. There are actually many ways to say 'thank you' in Korea. This is because the Korean language is based on a honorary system where depending who you are speaking to you use a certain level of formality. "Ko mop sim nee dah" should only be said when thanking someone whom you greatly respect (is higher than you in social status; somelike like a grandfather) or if they do something VERY VERY VERY nice for you. The other, "Kam sa ham nee dah" is used for everyday purposes. The students at my high school and Hapkido school in Seoul use the latter when speaking to their teachers. I only use "Ko mop sim nee dah" when someone does something unheard of or completely out of their way. Many Korean language text books try and teach you that it should be used all the time. This is false. The authors of these texts come from a way of thinking that all foreigners should pay respect to their Korean hosts by using the most formal aspects of the language. Some people may be angry with that, but after four years of living and working in Korea, all my Korean friends and co-workers agree this is true. However, while this information is nice to know, you would not tell a sixteen-year old, pipple faced kid at McDonalds "Ko mop sim nee dah" under no circumstances. To fully understand the Korean social status system you'd have to understand Confusionism and the way it determines a person's worth in society. To make it easy, the older you are, the more children you have, the longer you've been married, the type of job you have, etc all affect your value. So, to make it simple, just say "Kam sa ham nee dah." Hope this helps. John A. Johnson III, Taekwondo Independent III, Korea Hapkido Federation _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 11:00:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Ken McDonough To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Greetings from Tulsa Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings from Tulsa. Almost stayed in Baltimore for another job, but the guy was too neurotic for me. Tulsa not bad, but family not here. "I am so lonely I could cry" (who sang that song ?). Ray, Karol is staying at my inlaws in Cebu, PI and will be training under Cacoy. Same offer to you when and if u go. Anyone here of Gibsons Martial Arts ? Also, need an update on martial arts schools in Tulsa area=now that I am here. Please drop me a note here or privately. Anyone here of this guy Adams who teaches Muay Thai, Silat ? Too many massage parlors here--not that I visit such places. Had a nice Thai dinner last night. Big Ken Director, Administration You guess what place __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 11:15:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Sun Mu Kwan-USA To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Kuk Ki Sool Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Has anyone ever heard of this martial art style? Thanks! Ali M. Alnasser Sun Mu Kwan-USA www.ushankido.org --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Lee Fisk" To: "Dojang Digest" Subject: Re: RE: [The_Dojang] Starting Over Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 12:01:43 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This is a topic which affects me personally. When I joined my current school, Jae Kims Martial Arts School, two years ago I had documentation from WTF regarding my status as 1 Gup. At my old school, Shim's Martial Arts Academy in Elizabeth, NJ, HKD was practiced along with TKD. I was transferring to a HKD only class. I discussed the situation with the chief instructor; Our discussion covered that I didn't care about what rank I was because regardless H had knowledge which couldn't be taken away. He decided he wanted me to start as 7 gup (two belts in). Now as I am preparing for 3 gup testing I see little problem with having joined at other then white belt. I learned the first 3 testing worth of material for my first testing. I had knowledge which was useful to the school and which distinguished me from the lower belts and even some at the same belt. When I first started TKD in '80, at Melbourne Karate and Fitness in Melbourne, FL, I was told that I could have any belt but that I would have to spar with those who had the same belt. I believe that this was said in jest, but, I would have gotten my head used as a target had I started training with the Black Belts. I realized that belts are about skill and knowledge; not status. In the next year or two I hope that I will reach 1 Dan for the first time. By then I should be approaching or passed my 52nd birthday. Frankly I don't have enough time to start again at white belt. Fortunately I have something in common with my instructor, when we work out together we have over 103 years between us. I believe he too knows about time moving on. Best regards, Lee Fisk (Tucson, AZ) Message: 14 From: "Richard Zaruba" To: Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Starting Over Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 15:21:31 -0500 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello, This is a matter I have had to deal with both myself and with students that have come into my dojang. I personally started over as a white belt after obtaining a 2nd degree previously. To be honest it was the best thing that could happen. I did not know the KSW forms, the self defence techniques, the principles and how they were applied, but I learned them and now have a better grasp of my previous training as well. I have prospective students that choose not to join my school because they have to start at white belt, to be honest the ones who begrudgingly started at white belt usually don't last either. An open mind is required to learn new material and approaches to material you already know, and being able to accept a white belt again is a good sign. The students that do are usually some of my best students because rank is viewed as what it actually is artificial. Knowledge is the true gauge of any martial artist not a belt, uniform, fancy title, or any other exterior trappings. Respectfully, --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 17:13:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Veuleman To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Charles And Bruce Kata Stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello again... I just thought since you two were talking about TKD styles doing japanese kata, I would share what we do and don't do. Kuk Mu 1 - 6 Pyong An 1 Pyong An 2 Pyong An 3 Pyong An 4 Pyong An 5 Chul Gi 1 Pal Sek Hangetsu Yun Be Iron Claw Ja On Chul Gi 2 Ship Su Bo 1 Bo 2 Sai 1 Sai 2 These katas are all I have seen done for testing and all I have heard of. The Kuk Mu are done by our guys only I am pretty sure, used to teach the idea of walking a pattern. From Pyong An down though, all have roots in japanese/okinawan karate somehow. (Iron Claw Is just Go Pai Sho, not a shotokan kata, and Bo 2 I have heard is Shorei Bo, but I am not positive on that one). I know Ja On and Ship Su are part of a three kata set, but our group only does the first two. I have been tempted to reach out farther though and learn the third. Rho Hai is done by many of our upper rank guys during the annual Fumio Demura seminar at our nationals. He always does that kata... There is also a Tekki/Naihanchi 3, but I have not seen a Chul Gi 3. I am not too worried about it though, it would be basically the same thing, but with a few tweekings here and there. As far doing japanese/okinawan kata's and calling them by korean names, and should we feel bad about it, etc, I am not too worried about that stuff. Nobody can deny the forms are good, and teach good karate to those who study them. Other TKD styles forms have alot of the sequences taken from Jap/Oki kata, example, ITA-USTF/ITF-USTA green belt level form, and if you run Heian/Pinan/Pyong An 2 next to it, its almost the same thing. I also saw on tape a WTF form that had alot of Ship Su in it. So I know its all borrowed from here and there, but ya'll don't worry about it so much. Just think, we could always do every single freakin form known to man. WTF-ITF/ITA-CDK-Shotokan-etc....That would be bad....It would take like 15 years to get to black belt...Oh, that is hwarang do. Nevermind.... To the Digest Regulars, don't bite my head off too bad on this one, I am having a good weekend. Also, I just did a demo out in who knows where on the outskirts of Natchitoches, and I have found a few things to be true. #1. concrete is really hard, no matter if you are standing on it or punching it. #2. Kicks should be used on concrete when you forget to put the spacers in between (Nathan) #3. Don't forget to put spacers in between concrete slabs. #4. There are really big bugs in the country, but they don't bite. #5. Everybody knows you in Louisiana. It doesn't really matter where you go. YITMA, Charlie Veuleman ===== ------------------------------------- L. Charles Veuleman Natchitoches Karate Institute 204 Rapides Drive Natchitoches, LA 71457 318-356-7727 http://www.bluewavekarate.com ------------------------------------- --__--__-- Message: 6 From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 19:23:26 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: JP, Mike Rowe, Mr. Miyagi, etc. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear list: I know that Ray asked for a cease fire regarding the JP thread, but this is a bit different and I hope you feel it is okay Ray. (Promise it will be - lol) First, I understand the asking "what's Combat HKD" all about. It is in the magazines a lot, etc. Heck, JP even got it in the WSJ, how many other martial arts have been in that publication. I too, about 5 years ago was asking the same. After reading the hype, seeing the videos, visiting a Combat HKD school, talking with many that knew or met JP, and actually going and participating in a Combat HKD seminar, I have formed my own opinions. If someone asks, I tell them what I feel and what it is based on. Period. But it is not something that needs to be argued and argued on open forums. But it is also good to hear from those with experience on the forums, since open forums are about sharing information and that's how those who don't know anything other that what they see in the magazines and ads can learn from those that have been there, etc. However, none of this is what prompted me to finally write something. I've been pretty swamped lately trying to buy a house and doing some other projects, but I have read every issue. Now it's time to say something. The thing that disturbs me most about the entire exchange is that Michael Rowe received attacking personal e-mails. That is totally uncalled for. Everyone wants to spout off how a martial artist should be honorable, etc. And I for one believe we should be. With the ability to hurt or kill others, comes the responsibility to be a decent person. Or at least that's what I believe in teaching. I have known Michael R. for about 5 years. Since the first time I asked those questions about Combat Hapkido. He has always been very decent to me, and others. Even though I do not share his views on Combat HKD (After taking his advice and checking it out for myself, including that seminar) I respect Michael and his opinions, and think it is despicable that he was attacked for giving his opinions. I know what it's like to get those kinds of e-mail. Not long ago I got a nasty note calling me names because of a disagreement regarding a Korean word being translated. Seems my wife, who is a native Korean, only been in America for 2+ years, doesn't know Korean as well as this American. Regardless, this "GM" gets nasty in an e-mail and calls me names because of a difference in translation. Now someone is getting nasty with Michael because he is honorable in being loyal to a system and person that has been good to and for him. No one deserves to be attacked for that. I'm glad Steve posted what he did about Michael, since that is what he deserves. Boy is a lot of time spent bad mouthing others, other styles, etc. I think everyone should go rent the "Karate Kid" movies. Yes, all 4. Sit there, and fast forward through everything except when Mr. Miyagi is speaking. A lot can be learned there. I've been doing a lot of research lately, working on a couple books and videos. If we would all work on ourselves, and strive to be the best we can for ourselves, and not worry about others as much, we would be much better off. This list is not near as bad as other places on the net. (Some I won't go to any more because of all the bickering and nasty e-mails that are sent) I'm not saying don't give opinions about something, even if others don't agree with that opinion. But to start calling names, sending nasty messages and the like, what a waste. Well, I better get back to work. Just had to get up on a soap box for a bit. I'll get down now. BTW: If you don't want to watch all the Karate Kid movies, read my book if I decide to write this one. (Working on an outline for a book on the teachings of Mr. Miyagi - aimed more for younger audience, but everyone could benefit from the teachings) If you like this idea, let me know. Still just working with rough idea to see if I want to make it fly. Yours in Training, Alain Burrese www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 22:07:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "A. Boyd" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] silat(s) versus taekkyon(s) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sorry to have left you dangling! I am not certain exactly what expressions of silat were presented in this bout. The announcers were a bit difficult to hear and what was broadcast was generally only the most basic information. I only heard the countries that the competitors came from, Brunei and Indonesia. In addition to the non-contact sparring match on the day I was there, demonstrations of Silat (Malaysia), Pencak Silat (Brunei, Indonesia), Silat Seni Gayoung (Singapore) were presented. I didn't see the Malaysian demonstration. The T'aekkyeon (now Taek Gyeon) competitors came from the Hanguk Jan Tong Taek Gyeon Hae and the Daehan Taekkyon Hyup Hae. Incidentally, did you know that the Kukmin Bank is now offering a T'aekkyon Visa card? Funny, huh? (http://www.taekkyonkorea.com/event/i-win/) I wonder what will happen if you miss a payment... The techniques performed by the first silat practitioner appeared to be primarily defensive and reactive to the aggressive and powerful approach of the taekkyon practitioner. This was my first time to see silat in a sparring situation so I am not really in any position to comment on what I was seeing. The other barrier to understanding was of course that it was a non-contact bout and the competitors were frequently out of range. Basically, both men fought near each other and dodged a lot. In both cases, the silat guys reacted quickly to taekkyon and held to very low stances. It took the first man (Brunei) a bit longer to get a grip on the unusual angles of attacks which taekkyon employs but by the end of the 2 minutes he was doing pretty well: dodge and "land" a blow. Without contact it was pretty hard to guage the effectiveness of either person's attacks. My impression from the first match was that the taekkyon (hanguk) practitioner would have ended the fight in the first engagement - but, that was just an impression. The second bout was more cautious, probably because the men had the benefit of watching the results of the first. The silat stylist was more aggressive and the taekkyon stylist never relied on single attacks. The silat fighter opted for sweeps and hand attacks. Sorry I don't have more detail for you - I wasn't even able to get a clip of it due to the dramatic stage lighting and flame pots around the stage. Maybe next year... ===== Anthony Boyd: Swordsman and English Teacher www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Rich" To: Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 14:33:07 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] Sticky Hands and Kuk Sool Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi all, Just wondering if Kuk Sool Won does Sticky Hands training or anything similar? Regards. Rich. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: RE: [The_Dojang] Starting Over To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 07:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > This is a topic which affects me personally. When I joined my current school, > Jae Kims Martial Arts School, two years ago I had documentation from WTF > regarding my status as 1 Gup. Actually, neither the WTF nor the Kukkiwon provide any such documentation for gup levels. The only documentation available is for Dan levels. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest