Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 13:07:30 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #473 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. capoeira in Seoul (Ray Terry) 2. Headgear---for Dakin (TNTcombatives@aol.com) 3. RE: Training-Instructors- Students (Farral, Kim) 4. time in rank vs. ability; and miscellaneous comments on KMA (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 5. RE: Hanmudo Activities (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 6. RE: Monday Musings (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 7. RE:the Lone Wolf you mentioned. (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 8. Farmer Burns School of Wrestling (Ray Terry) 9. Re: Sticky Hands and Kuk Sool (Richard Zaruba) 10. Starting over - rank documentation (Sheree Goldstein) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 17:27:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] capoeira in Seoul Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net A martial art sambas into Seoul by Daniela SantaMaria Korea has martial arts. Brazil has soccer. At least that's the the way the world worked before the 2002 World Cup. Now, however, Korea, with its fourth-place finish, is among the world's soccer elite. And Brazil, still the king of soccer, of course, is going head-to-head with taekwondo, exporting its unique martial art, capoeira angola. Take for instance the story of Choi Hyun Hwa, the co-owner and capoeira master at Han Yang Gym in Nowon-dong, northeast Seoul. He learned of capoeira through a man who studied the art from a Brazilian group, Filhos de Bahia, practicing capoeira in Australia. "Most martial arts are very straight and hard," he explains. "Capoeira really attracted me because it was really unique, so fluid, and you can make your own moves." And so he trained, eventually sojourning to the land down under to study with Filhos de Bahia. "There was no sightseeing," Mr. Choi says, "only capoeira." In time he became a master, but these days he must rely on videotapes from his friends in Australia to maintain and upgrade his skills because there are not any higher-level instructors in Korea. After becoming a certified master, Mr. Choi next set out to teach capoeira. But he ran into a bit of a problem -- only one man joined. That didn't deter Mr. Choi though. For a month and a half, he and his one student practiced together for three hours a week, sweating and moving to the Brazilian beats. "I don't really care how many people join," he says with a smile, "just whether they enjoy it or not." Luckily for Mr. Choi, however, more people did join. A year and a half later, he is now up to about 50 students ranging from age 16 to 38. Mr. Choi has been teaching various martial arts for 10 years, but he hasn't lost the fire. His newfound fascination with capoeira has led him to hold demonstrations by the subway station to attract more fans. He's even trying to book a job on a cruise line, hoping to plug capoeira at sea. After all, just four Korean gyms teach the Brazilian martial art, according to Mr. Choi. "It's a combination of dance, martial arts, music and freedom, and all kinds of fun," he says with a laugh. "I think that this will spread more." Capoeira angola originated more than 400 years ago in what is now Brazil, as a way for African slaves to maintain their fighting skills -- skills that their Portuguese captors had banned. At first glance, it looks like a dance, with smooth and deliberate movements, accompanied by stringed instruments and drums. But when two people shake hands and enter the capoeira circle, their cartwheels, swinging arms and kicks are not simply graceful prances. Each move stops just millimeters from impact, representing a hit or a block, cloaked in the sounds and elegance of dance. With more than 18,000 kilometers separating Brazil's capital city, Sao Paolo, and Seoul, capoeira angola's spread to the home of taekwondo and hapkido has been long and circuitous. But now that it's here, fun is the key word. At a recent Monday night lesson, 16 students, including a martial arts novice, a traditional Korean dancer and a late-night dance clubber, learned how to do headstands and take falls like characters out of the Mortal Kombat video games. For two hours the class practiced its techniques, sparring and sweating, occasionally pausing to laugh at themselves and their jokester teacher. At approximately 10 p.m., the students finally said good-bye and rested up to do it again the next day, keeping the Brazilian tradition alive in a fourth floor gym in Seoul. "I like dancing and I love music, which are the components of capoeira," said Kwak Hye-Jin, a student of Mr. Choi's for the last four months. "I got attracted to the motion of the capoeira moves." Han Yang gym offers capoeira classes at 6-7 p.m. and 8-9 p.m. Monday through Friday for 100,000 won ($83) a week. Two-hour classes are also available for 50,000 won on Saturdays beginning at 3 p.m. For more information, call 02-3392-4382. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 00:31:37 -0400 From: TNTcombatives@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Headgear---for Dakin Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I regularly do heavy contact training. I use 2 different headgears. The first is a 'warrior' extra padded foam dip. I went to a hockey resale shop and found a clear lexan face shield mask. It has a chin guard, and straps. The top of the face shield I attached to the headgear by using those elastic thingys that many of the regular foam dip foot gear use to hook to the toes (is there actually a name for those?), and I put velcro on the straps and headgear. The faceshield wraps around the headgear, fits well, and keeps your eyes from getting poked. (and at $7, was way cheaper than the $65 cage that century is selling) The second one is an MVP, full chin foam dip head gear with similar face shield permanently attached. Mark Gajdostik TNT-Police Combatives --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Farral, Kim" To: 'Dojang' Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 09:21:58 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Training-Instructors- Students Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net All this talk about which training method is better and who progresses faster is nothing more than talk...there are bad instructors and there are good instructors and there are excellent instructors...same with students... Some instructors prefer older traditional methods...some prefer "new modern" methods...some students learn faster than others...none of it matters as we are ALL students...regardless of rank... Martial Arts is only what YOU want to get out of it...and what YOU want to put into it...the art or the sport...or a combination of both...it's whatever you are seeking...the instruction, the training, the competition is all within yourself and against yourself...not other styles...not other instructors...not other students... Understand and learn that...and you have learned more than most... not my opinion...fact! Pil Seung! The One and Only "Tink" Kim G. Farral 5th Dan TKD ************************************ If this email is not intended for you, or you are not responsible for the delivery of this message to the addressee, please note that this message may contain ITT Privileged/Proprietary Information. In such a case, you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. You should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Information contained in this message that does not relate to the business of ITT is neither endorsed by nor attributable to ITT. ************************************ --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 08:39:50 -0500 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] time in rank vs. ability; and miscellaneous comments on KMA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Two recent views about time in rank and ability: Jere Hilland wrote: > Time in rank is significant and can often be judged > when a technique is taught, performed or even discussed. Mark Gajdostik wrote: > There are and have always been those that can learn MA extremely > fast, and have an inate understanding of them....man, I hate those people..lol. I agree with Mark here -- I hate those people too! :) But seriously folks, rank itself is a recent innovation. Either you have it or you don't, and that was what the menkyo kaiden system was about. Time in rank seems to me to mostly be about testing someone's loyalty (are they going to stab me in the back if I show them too much?). The argument that time in rank creates better people, or at least that time in rank culls out the buttheads, is pretty specious. Take a look at Don Cunningham's recent presentation at the Guelph Sword Seminar: http://ejmas.com/proceedings/FraudsandFlakes.pdf Despite popular opinion to the contrary, learning a martial art means learning how to fight (that's the "martial" part). Learning to fight does not make you a better person. If you are selling philosophy under the guise of martial arts, well, more power to you. A little bit of honey (or violence in this case) makes the medicine (philosophy) go down easier. But I like my philosophy and my fighting straight. I try not to mix the two up. I know that Ray likes to keep the forum open and not yak about how much rank or time one has in the arts, but I'll volunteer to put together a list of starting dates and current rank if people want. Just email me. Then we'll know who the experts are, right? I say this of course rather tongue in cheek, but seriously, I will put together such a list as a starting point for this conversation. Charles Richards wrote (I think! There were some confusing attributions in this one!): > Traditionally the Koreans were always closer to the Chinese culture > anyhow, how come there is not a great emphasis on Chinese forms? Because China is a communist nation, and the Koreans we tend to play with are the South Koreans. Also because Japan reshaped Korea in its own image during the two generations it occupied the country. > I'm no expert, but the KSW and Han Mu Do patterns have a very Chinese > feel to them....... Han Mu Do is derived from KSW, and KSW drew upon the Praying Mantis gongfu tradition, so that makes sense. Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick dakinburdick@yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 07:43:16 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Hanmudo Activities Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Steve: "....There will be a seminar at his headquarters' school in Baton Rouge on November 1, 2, and 3rd....." Thanks for the up-date. As we get closer to the date could you give more information on this seminars' particulars? Is there a resource you can name that would keep people up to date on whats happening with this organization? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 07:39:46 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Monday Musings Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Dakin: ".....Can we please give it a rest folks? The last few digests have been filled with various flames and counterflames on the level of "My teacher better than your teacher." ......" I can't say for sure, but perhaps you might be over-simplifying a condition which all of us know to exist but are hard-pressed to address. Its even hard just to characterize, but we all know the symptoms and you mentioned one (the one I cited above) in your post. May I add some others? How about "who gets taught what, and when?" How about which is more worthy of our investment of time and money-- "art" or "full contact?" How about "what constitutes REAL validation (ie. Rank, certification, licensure etc.) of a practitioners' standing in the community, and WHO should do it?" I could go on and on listing these various conundrums, but WHY? We all know these positions are there and resolving such issues would require a lot more effort than most folks are willing to invest. Most of these problems are driven by which way the money, recognition and standings will flow. It probably started back in the 1960-s when the Korean leadership of various factions couldn't decide who were going to be the chiefs and who were going to be the little indians. Somebody found out he wasn't going to get what he thought he deserved in THIS sandbox and went off to build a sandbox of his own. People have been thumbing their noses at each others sandboxes ever since. The disease gets passed to the next generation as up&comers attempt to prove their loyalty to their selected leader by becoming increasingly vocal in discounting other peoples' sandboxes--- just like the previous generation did. And it doesn't help that money, recognition and influence are as much a driving factor in the modern US as they are in the older Korean culture. There are some truely great personalities in the MA such as Joe Svinth, Stanley Pranin, Mike DiMarco, Stanley Hennings and Pat McCarthy and the list goes on. Hell, I'd even throw YOUR name in there, Dakin! But what difference does this make to people who think that Bong Soo Han or Marc Tedeschi wrote definitive books on HKD, or that the HwaRang warriors trained in TKD? Most people will never learn to speak Korean, Japanese, or Chinese let alone have the time and money to take even an orchestrated visit to these countries. Even fewer will learn to read resources in the original language of those resources. Most will not take time to research their arts beyond TKD Times magazine or Black Belt magazine or one of those pulpy pop magazines that Pacific Rim puts out or will be able to do more than spew MA myth and legend rather than fact. Nor does it help that most people who ought to be in a position to know and share information are either too uninformed, or to embarrassed by past behaviors, to admit to their mistakes. All-in-all, Dakin, I wouldn't expect a whole lot from 75% of the KMA population. Maybe the best they can do IS the occasional pissing contest over bragging rights. KMA is an incredible constellation of traditions and beliefs passed to us from previous generations. We just can't expect too much from any one generation. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 08:48:58 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE:the Lone Wolf you mentioned. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Mark: "..... I'm not advocating one way or another...but some people can be at a high level without a lot of formal training. IMHO...." Absolutely right, Mark. Anybody can learn to fight. And for those people for whom fighting is all that MA is, what can I say? History, especially modern history is replete with cases where people took it upon themselves to learn from tapes and books and magazines. In fact, there was a time when student notebooks were highly prized acquisitions for what little tidbits they could disclose about various fighting systems. Moreover, I understand that a Chinese gentleman recently profiled in a MA magazine has started a very lucrative business scouting out and re-publishing some of these old manuals for circulation here in the States. Go figure. My kudos to the individual you mention. I am not sure what he has attained a "high level" in. By your report he seems to be good at punching and kicking. He wouldn't be the first self-taught person to make a contribution to his culture. I'm just not sure what the implications for this are except that he seems to have a lot of dedication and doesn't seem to have much need for giving his time and money to someone else in return for validation. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 10:39:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Farmer Burns School of Wrestling Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Interesting... http://sandow.crosswinds.net/Competition/Burns/lessons/lesson01.htm Historical. Lessons from perhaps one of the best grapplers of the last 100+ years. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 13:28:07 -0500 From: Richard Zaruba To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Sticky Hands and Kuk Sool Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I cannot speak for other Dojangs but my instructor began teaching several variations of sticky hand, sensitivity, interception, flow, and timing drills by or at about blue belt while we were learning Mahk Chi Ki (pressure point strikes), Mahk Cha Ki (pressure point kicks), and Joo Muhk Maga Ki Bohn Soo (basic techniques in response to a kick then punch). All of these sets require the basic skills learned in the drills to be applied correctly and effectively. I still teach them at about the same point in our curriculum since I inherited the dojang. Sincerely, Rich > Message: 8 > From: "Rich" > To: > Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 14:33:07 +0100 > Subject: [The_Dojang] Sticky Hands and Kuk Sool > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Hi all, > > Just wondering if Kuk Sool Won does Sticky Hands training or anything > similar? > > Regards. > > Rich. ____________________________________________________________________________ Richard Zaruba, Head Instructor Academy of Korean Martial Arts Kuk Sool Won of Grand Forks Baseview Shopping Center 201 Veitch Avenue Emerado, ND 58228 Http://www.ksw-nd.com/ richard@ksw-nd.com Sch: (701) 594-6290 Cell:(218) 791-2282 Hm: (701) 777-9557 --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Sheree Goldstein" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 14:35:30 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Starting over - rank documentation Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray wrote: "Actually, neither the WTF nor the Kukkiwon provide any such documentation for gup levels. The only documentation available is for Dan levels." My school is affiliated with the WTF and USTU, and we gups receive rank certificates from the USTU after every test. I assume that most schools would honor such a certificate. Wouldn't this be sufficient documentation, even if it doesn't come from the WTF? --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest