Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 16:48:06 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #474 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Thoughts on Hyung Practice (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 2. Re: Starting over - rank documentation (Ray Terry) 3. Re: Joining with rank (Laurie S.) 4. Re: Re: Sticky Hands and Kuk Sool (Brian Woodard) 5. High-handed question (was Re: Joining with rank) (Wallace, John) 6. Mike Rowe (J.R. West) 7. Re: High-handed question (was Re: Joining with rank) (Brian Woodard) 8. please trim your posts (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 13:31:14 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Thoughts on Hyung Practice Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Charles and - well --- Charles: I didn't cite either of your posts as you both made some very important observations. I just thought I would jump into the deep end of the pool and make a couple of suggestions based on what you both shared. I hope neither one of you thought that I was suggesting a clear divorce from training in the various kata transmitted to Korea from Okinawa through Japan. As Charles R pointed out there is much to support the efficacy of using these kata/hyung to teach sound principles of body motion both concussive and manipulative. What I was wondering is whether it would be better to go back to the way the kata/hyung were originally performed in Okinawa--- or even China-rather than use the renditions organized first by OS Funakoshi, then re-structured by his son and OS Nakayama. What this would look like would be rather dramatic but I think in the long-run more meaningful. Charles (V.) I am going to use your list as an example. "...... Kuk Mu 1 - 6 Pyong An 1 Pyong An 2 Pyong An 3 Pyong An 4 Pyong An 5 Chul Gi 1 Pal Sek Hangetsu Yun Be Iron Claw Ja On Chul Gi 2 Ship Su Bo 1 Bo 2 Sai 1 Sai 2...." First off, the hyung would begin with the traditional basic kata, Naifanchi. These katas (and I use plural because most of us know them as a set of three attributed to Itosu rather than the single kata sometimes known as Naifanchi Ich) are traditionally identified as the place where most Okinawan practitioners started. The next in line was what the JKA calls Bassai Dai and most Okinawans identified as the Matsumora Passai (Passai after the tradition of OS Matsumura). The next hyung would be KuShanku, from which most people believe that Itosu developed the five Pinan kata. You will still find people who argue that the Pinan kata could also have come from the legendary Channon kata, but since nobody knows what this kata looked like its sorta a mute point, ne? I will tell you that the hyung we practice in Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido are most definitely influenced by and borrow heavily from the techniques found in the Pinan (Pyong Ahn) kata and so by extension use much of the Kushanku material. Kushanku is not an easy kata to learn and I think it is because it essentially teaches you the five Pinan Kata in one hyung without the benefit of spoon-feeding techniques a few at a time over 5 separate hyung. After KuShanku then there are a whole range of free-form kata. Originally Funakoshi espoused 22 kata, but the JKA has trimmed that down to about 15. Ro-Hai, Wanshu, Jion, Jitte, Chinto and the rest are all still practiced but are done as the Japanese version. Hangetsu, for instance is actually Seisan and is most accurately reflected (IMHO) by the Uechi-ryu version than anything else. Same goes for Sanchin. Charles R mentioned Tam Tui 10 and 12 and I love these hyung as the introductory material to Chinese Long Fist. Think of them as being to Chuan Fa what the Pinan kata are to Karate and the Pyong Ahn hyung are to TKD. Again they are tricky to learn but nothing that solid repetition and adding a new move once a week won't overcome. I have both a Long Fist book and a wall chart to guide me and a couple of Boxing personalities who are very supportive in making suggestions as I further my research. If I was going to insert Tam Tui 12 into my training routine (teaching curriculum) I would do it AFTER the Naifanchi kata. As a counterpoint to the lateral movement of Naifanchi, the linear forward and backward of Tam Tui are a sound change-up. Now Charles (V.), you notice I didn't say anything about Bo or sai and I think you have read enough of my material to know that my thoughts on these are pretty predictable. No offense, intended. I just think that if one is going to practice cudgeol or staff the hyung to be followed are the three or four that are found in the Mu Yei To Bo Tong Gi rather than importing comparable hyung from somewhere else. Same goes for the weapons. There was a great article on the origins of the sai in JAMA this quarter, and there is nothing to suggest in that article that Northern China or Korea had anything to do with it. The closest is probably the Japanese jutte which reputedly no small among of the Korean Dan Bong techniques are supposed to be based on. I stick with the 6 traditional Korean weapons, though just between you and I, I'm not above stealing the occasional odd technique. You won't catch me teaching nunchukas or balisong as Korean weapons, though. To close out for now, let me say that I agree with Charles R on the popularity of a particular kata and its incorporation into an art as a function of how familiar and wide-spread it is. I will go out on a limb and risk peoples ire by saying that I believe it our responsibility to involve ourselves in such things as Mac' investigation of Tam Tui 12 to keep such hyung alive, vibrant and a vital part of our training. It means you will need to take some risks, make some assumptions and do something more than just regurgitate what the people in the generation before have handed us on a platter. Charles, I would give you a second spin on what Mac has suggested about "embellishing a hyung" and ask that you give yourself permission to experiment. I have found that unless I can prove a particular movement has purpose, our body will naturally eliminate that effort in favor of economy of energy. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Starting over - rank documentation To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 13:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > "Actually, neither the WTF nor the Kukkiwon provide any such documentation > for gup levels. The only documentation available is for Dan levels." > > My school is affiliated with the WTF and USTU, and we gups receive rank > certificates from the USTU after every test. I assume that most schools > would honor such a certificate. Wouldn't this be sufficient documentation, > even if it doesn't come from the WTF? The USTU makes blank gup promotion forms available for sale to instructors. The WTF, the USTU, and the Kukkiwon does not track the gup levels of students. Sorry, but they just don't care. Nor would it be feasible to track something that changes every couple of months for many students. Once you get to Kukkiwon Il Dan (1st Dan), then they'll assign a Dan number, register, and track your rank progress. But I believe your real question has to do with should your new dojang honor your gup rank from the old dojang... Well, no, not necessarily. That would entirely be up to the instructor at the new dojang. Something to talk about with him/her prior to joining. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Laurie S." To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 17:50:26 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Joining with rank Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hiya all. I'm another who changed dojangs (because I moved). I was a 5th gup blue belt in TSD when I moved. I joined the local TKD dojang. They reconized my rank (I showed proof of certs and skills). However, I started at white belt. But I progressed quickly to green belt. Now I'm getting ready to test for blue (beginning of Dec). I'm back where I was. I hated starting at white belt at first. Only because if someone didn't know I wasn't really a beginner, would treat me like one. I just show them by doing such and such technique that I wasn't a beginner, then grin LOL. I realized that wasn't a very smart attitude. Because TSD and TKD (WTF) hyungs are very different. They do have similar techniques, but the patterns are very different. Sparring is very different. I had to get used to not using hand techniques to the head (OMG .... That was so hard ... Still is). I had to get used to saying "turning" kick instead of roundhouse kick (I had to learn different terms). I still do TSD stuff in TKD, but I don't realize it till someone else tells me ..... oops. It's not easy going from one style to another, eventhough they are both similar. Laurie High Green belt TKD (5th gup blue belt TSD) _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Brian Woodard" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Sticky Hands and Kuk Sool Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 18:33:43 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Pardon my ignorance but the only sticky hands I know of belong to my 4-year-old!! :o) For those of us who don't know what is sticky hands? TIA, Brian 'Sticky Keyboard" Woodard P.S. One of my favorite place to eat is a restaurant call Sticky Fingers - great dry ribs yum yum yum.Sticky-keyboard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Zaruba" To: Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 2:28 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Sticky Hands and Kuk Sool > I cannot speak for other Dojangs but my instructor began teaching several > variations of sticky hand, sensitivity, interception, flow, and timing > drills by or at about blue belt while we were learning Mahk Chi Ki (pressure > point strikes), Mahk Cha Ki (pressure point kicks), and Joo Muhk Maga Ki > Bohn Soo (basic techniques in response to a kick then punch). All of these > sets require the basic skills learned in the drills to be applied correctly > and effectively. I still teach them at about the same point in our > curriculum since I inherited the dojang. > > Sincerely, > Rich > > > > Message: 8 > > From: "Rich" > > To: > > Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 14:33:07 +0100 > > Subject: [The_Dojang] Sticky Hands and Kuk Sool > > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > > > Hi all, > > > > Just wondering if Kuk Sool Won does Sticky Hands training or anything > > similar? > > > > Regards. > > > > Rich. > > ____________________________________________________________________________ > > Richard Zaruba, Head Instructor > Academy of Korean Martial Arts > Kuk Sool Won of Grand Forks > Baseview Shopping Center > 201 Veitch Avenue > Emerado, ND 58228 > Http://www.ksw-nd.com/ > richard@ksw-nd.com > Sch: (701) 594-6290 > Cell:(218) 791-2282 > Hm: (701) 777-9557 > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Wallace, John" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 15:39:34 -0700 Subject: [The_Dojang] High-handed question (was Re: Joining with rank) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Laurie I'm curious about the no hand-techniques to the head statement. (I think Sheree G. said something similar as well). Those are Olympic sparring rules, right? Do you do other types of sparring as well where you do target the head/face? How about self-defence drills? I understand the rules, I think (presumably to distinguish TKD from other combat sports by emphasizing kicking), but is there a place for high-section hand techniques other than forms in your dojang? Just curious John W. I Dan, TKD Fremont, CA -----Original Message----- From: Laurie S. [mailto:karatekid1975@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 2:50 PM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Joining with rank Hiya all. I'm another who changed dojangs (because I moved). I was a 5th gup blue belt in TSD when I moved. I joined the local TKD dojang. They reconized my rank (I showed proof of certs and skills). However, I started at white belt. But I progressed quickly to green belt. Now I'm getting ready to test for blue (beginning of Dec). I'm back where I was. I hated starting at white belt at first. Only because if someone didn't know I wasn't really a beginner, would treat me like one. I just show them by doing such and such technique that I wasn't a beginner, then grin LOL. I realized that wasn't a very smart attitude. Because TSD and TKD (WTF) hyungs are very different. They do have similar techniques, but the patterns are very different. Sparring is very different. I had to get used to not using hand techniques to the head (OMG .... That was so hard ... Still is). I had to get used to saying "turning" kick instead of roundhouse kick (I had to learn different terms). I still do TSD stuff in TKD, but I don't realize it till someone else tells me ..... oops. It's not easy going from one style to another, eventhough they are both similar. Laurie High Green belt TKD (5th gup blue belt TSD) _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002 --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "J.R. West" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 18:30:14 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Mike Rowe Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I agree with Steve Kincade and Alain Burrese. Although I don't agree with Mr. P, I laud Mr. Rowe for standing behind someone he believes in, and with whom he has working relationship. I have spoken to Mike on occasion, and found him to be a very cordial, and knowledgeable person. If someone expresses and opinion on the DD, it is exactly that, an opinion, and, yes, we all have one. When you contact someone directly to do nothing more than make innuendos or direct comments about someone, then you are not doing anything to enrich the knowledge of the group, and learning is why I subscribe and read every post in its' entirety. Mike has mentioned a willingness to come down to MS for one of our international goat-ropings and compare techniques and philosophies of basic motion, and I hope he does, because I look forward to meeting him...J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Brian Woodard" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] High-handed question (was Re: Joining with rank) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 19:10:32 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net John; my old dojang used to not allow hand techniques to the head and neck but we often practices target to head with hand techniques during self-defense drills. The school I am at allows hand techniques to the head but the sparring is non-contact. I like practicing hand techniques to the head during sparring it makes hand techniques easier to use "indisticintively" or keep in muscle memory. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wallace, John" To: Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 6:39 PM Subject: [The_Dojang] High-handed question (was Re: Joining with rank) > Hi Laurie > I'm curious about the no hand-techniques to the head statement. (I think > Sheree G. said something similar as well). Those are Olympic sparring > rules, right? Do you do other types of sparring as well where you do target > the head/face? How about self-defence drills? I understand the rules, I > think (presumably to distinguish TKD from other combat sports by emphasizing > kicking), but is there a place for high-section hand techniques other than > forms in your dojang? > > Just curious > John W. > I Dan, TKD > Fremont, CA > > -----Original Message----- > From: Laurie S. [mailto:karatekid1975@hotmail.com] > Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 2:50 PM > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Joining with rank > > > Hiya all. > > I'm another who changed dojangs (because I moved). I was a 5th gup blue belt > > in TSD when I moved. I joined the local TKD dojang. They reconized my rank > (I showed proof of certs and skills). However, I started at white belt. But > I progressed quickly to green belt. Now I'm getting ready to test for blue > (beginning of Dec). I'm back where I was. > > I hated starting at white belt at first. Only because if someone didn't know > > I wasn't really a beginner, would treat me like one. I just show them by > doing such and such technique that I wasn't a beginner, then grin LOL. > > I realized that wasn't a very smart attitude. Because TSD and TKD (WTF) > hyungs are very different. They do have similar techniques, but the patterns > > are very different. Sparring is very different. I had to get used to not > using hand techniques to the head (OMG .... That was so hard ... Still is). > I had to get used to saying "turning" kick instead of roundhouse kick (I had > > to learn different terms). > > I still do TSD stuff in TKD, but I don't realize it till someone else tells > me ..... oops. It's not easy going from one style to another, eventhough > they are both similar. > > Laurie > High Green belt TKD > (5th gup blue belt TSD) > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002 > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002 > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 16:46:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] please trim your posts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Folks, Please remember to trim your posts. Two things frequently occur. Either those on the digest form of the list do not trim off the remainder of the digest and end up sending an entire digest issue back to the list in a single post. Those posts are rejected back to the sender for (hopefully) obvious reasons. The other thing that occurs is that those on the non-digestified form of the list (i.e. each post coming in as a single email) will frequently quote an entire thread, which can also get rather long. No need to resend the msg trailers (the stuff at the end that says what list the post came from) nor the entire thread. Please trim down to just the relavant bits. Thanks for understanding. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest