Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 11:08:19 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #475 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Starting Over - Rank Documentation (SallyBaughn@aol.com) 2. CSTA Annual Meeting 2002 (Ray Terry) 3. Re: High-handed question (was Re: Joining with rank) (Laurie S.) 4. Sleepless in Natchitoches (Nathan Miller) 5. Redundant Question=Tulsa, OK (Ken McDonough) 6. re Han Mu Do Hyungs (Chris Holmes) 7. Korean Translations for Thank You (Linda Principato) 8. Re: re Han Mu Do Hyungs (Ray Terry) 9. Hyungs with Bruce (Charles Richards) 10. Hogu in size NGMB (Charles Richards) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: SallyBaughn@aol.com Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 20:29:07 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Starting Over - Rank Documentation Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sheree wrote: > My school is affiliated with the WTF and USTU, and we gups receive rank > certificates from the USTU after every test. I assume that most schools > would honor such a certificate. Wouldn't this be sufficient documentation, > > even if it doesn't come from the WTF? > Actually, it would be difficult to honor the gup certificates, since there is no repository at USTU which maintains a history of an individual's testing. Truth is, even tho' there is a Kukkiwon standard for testing and they DO maintain a history of the individual's application for and receipt of rank, the Kukkiwon standard is verrrrry minimal and many (most?) instructors require much more from a student before passing him or her into the Dan ranks. Sally --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 18:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] CSTA Annual Meeting 2002 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The CSTA (California State Taekwondo Association) annual meeting for 2002 will be held on Saturday, November 2, 6:30PM, in Los Angeles' Korea Town. "Dinner will be served for all USTU Registered TKD Club Owners." Contact the CSTA for details. 949.348.2977. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Laurie S." To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 21:05:29 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: High-handed question (was Re: Joining with rank) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net John wrote <<<>>> Yes, it is olympic style sparring (WTF). Yes, we do self defense and step sparring, which both have a lot of hand techniques. One of my favs (simple but useful) is a side kick to the ribs and backfist to the temple. Or low roundhouse to the legs (or midsection) and knife hand strike to the neck. We get into take-downs and such in later ranks :o) Plus we do Chin Na for self defense (My master used to do Kung Fu). Laurie High green belt TKD (5th gup blue belt TSD) _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 01:11:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Nathan Miller To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Sleepless in Natchitoches Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Heya Bruce... > After KuShanku then there are a whole range of > free-form kata. Originally > Funakoshi espoused 22 kata, but the JKA has trimmed > that down to about 15. I think you may have your numbers mixed up. I'm almost positive that Funakoshi published 15 forms in his "Karate-do Kyohan", although he knew many more. The JKA, on the other hand, practices 26 forms, some modified by Funakoshi's son from other systems, as I understand it. I can't quote a solid source at the moment, though, as I'm at work. > Ro-Hai, Wanshu, Jion, Jitte, Chinto and the rest are > all still practiced but > are done as the Japanese version. Hangetsu, for > instance is actually Seisan > and is most accurately reflected (IMHO) by the > Uechi-ryu version than > anything else. Same goes for Sanchin. I have heard that there is a version of Seisan that is done full-speed, with no tension. I don't know if this is the Uechi-ryu version, but I've heard this is where the power of the form can really be felt. Once I've worked it out for a couple more years, I'm looking forward to trying it. :) > I will go out on a limb and > risk peoples ire by saying that I believe it our > responsibility to involve > ourselves in such things as Mac' investigation of > Tam Tui 12 to keep such > hyung alive, vibrant and a vital part of our > training. It means you will > need to take some risks, make some assumptions and > do something more than > just regurgitate what the people in the generation > before have handed us on > a platter. Which is something I hope Charlie and I will be able to do with Jiin and Chul-gi 3. Speaking of which... I've read that the Korean name for Jiin, the sister form to Ja On and Sip Su, is Ja Um... can anyone confirm this? I've only found it in one place. But back to the topic... I can understand your reasoning for not keeping the Pyong An forms: your basically taught them later on, anyway. But I think Itosu had a great idea when he broke Kushanku down: he lowered the learning curve. Not by much. But he gave most of every kata he knew in tiny pieces - parallels can be drawn between Kushanku and many of the other Okinawan forms. Then it just became a job of piecing them together. It probably also helped to lower the monotony - if I recall correctly, Itosu learned the Naihanchi set one at time, one year (or maybe three, I don't remember now) per form. Man, I love patterns... but... sheesh. :) Nathan --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 06:46:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Ken McDonough To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Redundant Question=Tulsa, OK Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey Chumps: Big Ken is back in Town--this time Tulsa, OK. Great town, by the way. Let me tell ya. I can roll out of bed and within 10 minutes be at work. Beats the 2 hour trip to DC. But, I preach. Job is great and a new lease on life. I have located one or two schools in Tulsa. But, any of yous people who are into Hapkido know of a good Hapkido school ? Does not appear to be one. Anyway, this town has a lot of pickups, meaning trucks. Also, a lot of convenient stores. And, they have those old fashioned drive up car hamburger joints where they bring the stuff to ya. Reminds me of places in New York and New Jersey in the 50's and 60's. And, in my thickest New York accent, I told these Okies that they have an unusual accent. Just kiddin. Trying to get along. But, people here talk to you versus the East Coast cold stare. I miss subways and the bowery. Peace, Big Ken __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Chris Holmes" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 10:16:27 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] re Han Mu Do Hyungs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Burdick, I just wanted to make a clarification on your statement that Han Mu Do is a Kuk Sul derivative. This is an over simplification. We do have many techniques that are in the Kuk Sul system. IMHO, Do Ju Nim made these techniques much more effective for self-defense. However, our art has lots of influence from Hapkido(more than one system), Yudo, Tae Kwon Do, and Ssirem. The higher I progress in rank the obvious these influences become. The Muye Dobo Tanji(sp) has also had a great influence on our art. I think we have the most Korean, Korean Martial Art. With regards to the hyungs, ours are nothing like any Kuk Sul forms I know or have seen. Do Ju Nim, based ours on the pattern of the Sun Bi symbol. Our blocking and our movement is unlike any martial art, Korean or otherwise that I have seen. The Kuk Sul forms I know are very beautiful but totally different. I just wanted to clear this up so people would not get the wrong impression. On a side note, what sort of membership did you have Mr. Sims? Was it a Han Mu Do membership or a Han Do Group Membership? Who did Do Ju Nim tell you to contact? I think Master Kincade, answered the other questions. Han, Chris Holmes _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Linda Principato" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 11:23:03 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Korean Translations for Thank You Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Mr. Johnson, You wrote: "Ko mop sim nee dah" should only be said when thanking someone whom you greatly respect (is higher than you in social status; somelike like a grandfather) or if they do something VERY VERY VERY nice for you. The other, "Kam sa ham nee dah" is used for everyday purposes. I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to advise me on this. You gave a very clear and helpful explanation... much appreciated! Respectfully, Linda _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] re Han Mu Do Hyungs To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 08:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > based ours on the pattern of the Sun Bi symbol. Our blocking and our > movement is unlike any martial art, Korean or otherwise that I have seen. > ... Are Han Mu Do videos available? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 08:55:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hyungs with Bruce Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> What I was wondering is whether it would be better to go back to the way the kata/hyung were originally performed in Okinawa--- or even China-rather than use the renditions organized first by OS Funakoshi, then re-structured by his son and OS Nakayama. What this would look like would be rather dramatic but I think in the long-run more meaningful. Charles (V.) I am going to use your list as an example. <> I think (very wisely IMHO) OS Funakoshi and Matsumura restructured to simplify, and reorganize concepts/skills into a graduated progression. Remember they needed to systemize the teaching of martial arts to an entire nation's school system...What has followed since then IMHO has been a logical progression of enhancements. One of the reasons I practice TSD in lieu of say Karate is the fact that it is an ecclectic progressive art.... "...... Kuk Mu 1 - 6 <> First off, the hyung would begin with the traditional basic kata, Naifanchi. These katas (and I use plural because most of us know them as a set of three attributed to Itosu rather than the single kata sometimes known as Naifanchi Ich) are traditionally identified as the place where most Okinawan practitioners started. <> I am familiar with this cirriculum, but would add, some traditional dojo contend that Naifanchi II & III are "practice forms" created to give more repetition to the skills/concepts in Naifanchi and thus practice only Naifanchi (I).... Going back to the popularity concept....most beginners (especially in the USA) are not going to spend their first months in the martial arts working on their horse stance....But Bruce brings and interesting point as starting with the Naifanchi and/or tam tui certainly will strengthen the leg muscles, thus preparing them for Korean styled kicking :-) <> The next in line was what the JKA calls Bassai Dai and most Okinawans identified as the Matsumora Passai (Passai after the tradition of OS Matsumura). The next hyung would be KuShanku, from which most people believe that Itosu developed the five Pinan kata. ..... Kushanku is not an easy kata to learn and I think it is because it essentially teaches you the five Pinan Kata in one hyung without the benefit of spoon-feeding techniques a few at a time over 5 separate hyung. <> FWIW in the early development of the Moja Kwan Cirriculum I considered a five belt system that went White Yellow (6 months) Green PA#1 & 2 (1 year total) Blue PA#3 & 4 (2 year total) Red PA#5 & Bassai (dai) (3 year total) Black Naifanchi I (minimum 4 years training) But what my wife and Mr. Clarke reminded me is that most true beginners struggle with Ki Cho Hyungs (and I'm sure the Kuk Mu Hyungs), even though you could argue that they are just basic motions and/or a break up of PA #1 (minus the knife edge strikes)....Having done it for 2 years now, I'm glad I went that route as my 6.5 yo's with 1.5 years of training are sort of OK with Ki Cho 1-3, and that has prepared them for Pyung Ahn #1...Had I started at PA#1 or Naifanchi, I don't think I'd have any of them still in the program.... Now I have heard (and would agree) if you only had time to practice a few Kata/Hyung one would do well to study Ku Shan Ku and not worry about the 5 Pinan as all of the basic material is covered in KSK.. And I must confess I spend most of my time on the three Naifanchi, Jindo, Rho Hai, KSK, Wan Shu and Sei San, but then again I will be doing Ki Cho and Pyung Ahn's for the rest of my life in class.... <> Charles R mentioned Tam Tui 10 and 12 and I love these hyung as the introductory material to Chinese Long Fist. Think of them as being to Chuan Fa what the Pinan kata are to Karate and the Pyong Ahn hyung are to TKD. Again they are tricky to learn but nothing that solid repetition and adding a new move once a week won't overcome. .... If I was going to insert Tam Tui 12 into my training routine (teaching curriculum) I would do it AFTER the Naifanchi kata. As a counterpoint to the lateral movement of Naifanchi, the linear forward and backward of Tam Tui are a sound change-up. <> Of course in my progression Naifanchi is introduced before Jindo, and Jindo offers the same linear back and forth strategy IMHO... <> I just think that if one is going to practice cudgeol or staff the hyung to be followed are the three or four that are found in the Mu Yei To Bo Tong Gi rather than importing comparable hyung from somewhere else. Same goes for the weapons. .... I stick with the 6 traditional Korean weapons, though just between you and I, I'm not above stealing the occasional odd technique. You won't catch me teaching nunchukas or balisong as Korean weapons, though. <> Here is my evolution of thoughts on weapons...I have a few weapons forms that I like that we will keep in our black belt cirriculum. As far as practical weapons I like ones that I can actually carry (knife is my favorite). And so I introduce knife and escrima as our primary weapon and some rope(belt), cane, and yawara (closed knife) and yes that includes balisong (as a knife and yawara). I'm considering passing on the 6 foot staff, but the mechanics of joined hands techniques versus articulated (escrima) could add a dimension to students training, so I am considering keeping the 4' staff, which is also a good Ki Cho for the late Cane work.... <> Charles, I would give you a second spin on what Mac has suggested about "embellishing a hyung" and ask that you give yourself permission to experiment. I have found that unless I can prove a particular movement has purpose, our body will naturally eliminate that effort in favor of economy of energy. FWIW. <> Good point, my take... Since Master Mac is my senior, my instructor, and the head of USKMAF TSD....I am committed to learning his view (as learned from GM Kim, Jae Jhoon) of the "correct TSD way of doing the hyungs." This is important as the standard I will pass on to my black belts. Now, having said that, what I do for a demonstration and/or competition might be very different in terms of style and interpretation. I will agree that economy of motion is a sound science that our muscle memory will gravitate towards. FWIW that's another Concept in JKD :-) WOW now I'm tired so it's off to Hooters for a great lunch :-) Train with Jung Do in your hearts, The rest is commentary. Charles R. Moja Kwan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 09:07:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hogu in size NGMB Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear list, Back to the thread on TSD folks training with the Hogu. Last night one of my adult males volunteered to strap on two hogus and have at it with me :-) There are few things in life more satisfying that actually connecting with a jump spinning round kick. I think I'll be looking forward to Knoxville in July :-) Of course we did every thing wrong that Master Hodder warned us about when you transition from TSD kicking to Olympic TKD kicking....so it's back to lurk mode and working on my Arc kick.... Has anyone used the AAU Olympic Sparring Training Videos, or can anyone suggest a good reference material (book or video) for some good drills and strategies to work on. I also have two 6.5 yo's who will be trying out the OS this season and I want to be the best coach I can.... Yours in Jung Do, Charles R. Moja Kwan __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest