Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 07:00:11 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #479 - 17 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Welcome (Braeswood Martial Arts) 2. An apology accepted (Braeswood Martial Arts) 3. Robert Dalgleish (Rudy Timmerman) 4. Sul Sa and HanMuDo (J.R. West) 5. Black Belt article: Hapkido Offense (jmchie@wideopenwest.com) 6. Sulsa? (Hapkido Self Defense Center) 7. Re: Personal Attacks (Michael Rowe) 8. Apology (Hapkido Self Defense Center) 9. Re: Sulsa? (Ray Terry) 10. Sulsa vs sulsado (Jye nigma) 11. Re: anon BS (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 12. Re: Sulsa vs sulsado (Ray Terry) 13. Re: Master Bob Dalgleish (Ron Bain) 14. hapkido (freddie bishop) 15. moo duk kwan (freddie bishop) 16. Sul Sa Do (FirstPe315@aol.com) 17. The loop-hole in the sulsa story (Jye nigma) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Braeswood Martial Arts" To: Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 17:25:54 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Welcome Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Welcome to the list Jye, Hope you enjoy the postings here as much as I do. Kat Kelly www.braeswoodmartialart.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Braeswood Martial Arts" To: Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 17:27:45 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] An apology accepted Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Kudos Ray I see such martial art ppl just about everyday... I think you know what I mean... LOL :)) Kat --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 15:41:33 -0500 From: Rudy Timmerman To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Robert Dalgleish Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray writes: > The article is Robert M. Dalgleish: > The Father of Canadian Goju-Ryu Karate. Turns out this (now deceased) > gentleman had a dojo in Sudbury, way back when Hello Ray: I was quite amazed to read about my old friend Bob on the DD. I'll have to see if I can find a copy of that article. Bob and I were the co founders of the Canadian Yudansha Alliance (as you said, way back when), and he spent the entire week just before his tragic death at my home training. At that time, Bob no longer lived in Sudbury, and he was on his way back there to reestablish his school. The school is now run by another old friend, Don Gauthier. Bob had been living at the home of another acquaintance, Master Vic Harrel, who passed away shortly after Bob. Thanks for giving me an opportunity to remenisce Rudy --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "J.R. West" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 17:29:04 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Sul Sa and HanMuDo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net First off, Ray, you are correct, Sul Sa Do is the area of the Lee Bros. of Colorado and Oregon (or Washington), and is referred to by Jung Lee, as "Korean Ninja Techniques". I have no rank or affiliation with Jung Lee, although my wife (The meanest woman in the world), along with her 5th dan in HapKiDo, holds a 1st dan in Sul Sa Do, and I have actually taught a HapKiDo class or two to Mr. Lee's Sul Sa students. As far as the origins of HanMuDo are concerned, originally the system was called "Yuh Kwon Sul", and was based on Dr. Kimm's VERY extensive background in YuDo and HapKiDo, and the idea that Dr. Kimm cut out pictures from other books is highly unlikely, just due to the nature of the man. Dr. Kimm is not the type boast about his individual prowess, but he is STILL a YuDo legend in Korea, and was chosen for the US team for the 72 Olympics in Munich but was forced to stay in Atlanta (I believe) due to stomach flu. He is still an international JuDo judge and is certified by both the Korean and Japanese governing bodies. I can even remember one of my students commenting after the Barcelona games, that while he was there, he saw a JuDo judge that looked "just like Dr. Kimm". Originally his system had just "members", like Bruce, but later split into the "HanDo" group for related arts, as well as the actual art of "HanMuDo". Perhaps Master Kincade can shed more light on this.......J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: jmchie@wideopenwest.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 16:34:54 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Black Belt article: Hapkido Offense Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I was wondering if anyone had any commments or thoughts on the recent article in Black Belt magazine entitled "First Blood: Hapkido's Answer to Imminent Aggression Is the Pre-Emptive Strike" by Frank Enloe. My instructor does very little by way of pure 'pre-emptive' technique, except for kicking and striking training, although I have seen such materials during my out-of-dojang studies. I have requested training in that area on occasion, knowing that in real life statistically what would happen is that I would have to engage someone attacking a friend, relative, or my spouse and not me. I'm a relative pacifist and at a good 6'2", 220-ish I'm not imposing but I don't make a fantastic first-impression target, either. My understanding is that Hapkido is primarily self-defense oriented, but in that vein I would think pre-emptive or first-strike techniques would be particularly valuable since my motivation in such a situation would be to engage an opponent offensively so that they had to disengage an attack on my wife, etc . . . . So I was just giving the issue some thought and in reviewing the article I thought I would also solicit some opinions from the list. Thanks in advance for any thoughts posted. Jim McHie Jr. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" To: Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 19:00:17 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Sulsa? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray, what is this movie you are talking about? I was serious in that I had never heard of it before, and as soon as I started teaching hapkido full time is when I started getting emails and phone calls asking if I taught it. The movie you mentioned is the first reference I have heard about it.... Jere R. Hilland www.geocities.com/hapkiyukwonsul --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Michael Rowe" To: Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 18:05:46 -0500 Organization: Dan Il Press Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Personal Attacks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net << I am also sure that none of the better known Masters on this list would stoop to such behavior, regardless on their position on your Instructor.>> I agree, I don't think they would. But the question is who? Why do they do it anonomously? Why not come on down work out with me, test my skills so to speak? But that would require putting their money where there mouth is.SIGH! Hope, they don't show themselves in my e-mail box again. Michael Rowe --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" To: Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 19:06:49 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Apology Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> Well said, I had told Mike privately, that it is unbelievable that grown adults behave that way. Playing verbal volleyball is one thing, but taking things personally is another. Jere R. Hilland www.geocities.com/hapkiyukwonsul --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Sulsa? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 16:18:45 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Ray, what is this movie you are talking about? Movie? Was I talking about a movie? Didn't think so. One of us must be experiencing a senior moment... :) If you are referring to Korean Ninjas, yes, that sounds like a bad movie title, but not one of which I am familar. The Sulsado Lee's called themselves the Korean Ninjas, or something like that... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 16:56:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Sulsa vs sulsado Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net The Lee brothers teach that sul sa are secret skills such as infiltration, stealth, etc. Now according to them they are the only ones who knows these secret skills. Now there is a man who on his website: http://www.sulsado.com that he was taught an actual martial art called sulsado. It's crazy, one says it's not a martial art and the other says it is. My thing is that i haven't come across any history books pertaining to Korean history that supports the concept of the sulsa (knights of the nights). Jye __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 11 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 20:01:13 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: anon BS Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "Hello Michael. it is truly unfortunate that this has happened; however, I do not think such cowardly acts will ever stop. Funny how these folks never seem to remember their own name or address. I am also sure that none of the better known Masters on this list would stoop to such behavior, regardless on their position on your Instructor. Rudy" not only that, rudy....what scares me is that theyre _determined_ enough to go to the trouble of getting an anonymous address from which to do the damage. whoever it was that said they were cowards had it right. mike, i'm sorry that BS is being directed at you. same goes for bruce. i get threats all the time from anonymous BSers. its business related and they say they'll sue or kick my hind side, that theyre the model in a picture i have on my website or that they have the sole right to sell an item (adidas uniforms, usually...lol). i ask them for a name and contact info or their attorneys name so that we can discuss the issue and the email usually stops. .....once again, cowards. (deep sigh) take care of yourselves, melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy http://www.cjmaa.com Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.cjmas.com Toll Free: 1-877-847-4072 Proud Sponsor of the 2003 Annual Show Me State Open Martial Arts Tournament --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Sulsa vs sulsado To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 17:47:21 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > is that i haven't come across any history books > pertaining to Korean history that supports the concept > of the sulsa (knights of the nights). Knights of the nights?!? You just gotta love it. :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Ron Bain" To: Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 21:24:27 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Master Bob Dalgleish Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From: Ray Terry > But also mentioned in another article is the town of Sudbury, Ontario. Home > to one of our list members (Hi Ron). The article is Robert M. Dalgleish: > The Father of Canadian Goju-Ryu Karate. Turns out this (now deceased) > gentleman had a dojo in Sudbury, way back when. Hi Ray, Yes Master Bob Dalgleish taught here in Sudbury during the seventies, and was an important figure with respect to martial arts here. As a youth, I can remember watching many demo's that his school would put on at the local park. The area is still predominately Goju Ryu as a result of his influence, and he produced several high caliber instructors. List member GM Timmerman was personal friends with Master Dalgleish, and would be able to provide anyone with far more information than I could...... A true Canadian Martial Arts icon who, unfortunately, passed away way before his time.... Ron <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Ron Bain's Website: http://www.cyberbeach.net/~bainr Korean Hoshinsool On-Line: http://hoshinsulonline.tripod.ca Sr. Software Support Tech. - Cambrian College: http://www.cambrianc.on.ca <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 18:57:57 -0700 (PDT) From: freddie bishop To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. J. R. West I am a student of tae kwon do, my instructor also has "self defense" night at the dojang. His self defense routines are a collection of wrist manipulations performed with the students facing each other. There is no other body movements involved to effect the technique such as in judo, where you you move your body in certain directions in order to perform the technique. Could this be Hapkido he is teaching us? Fred Indiana TKD __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 19:01:06 -0700 (PDT) From: freddie bishop To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] moo duk kwan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Whatever happened to Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do? Wasn't there an organization representing MDK TKD, which was seperate of all the TSD groups? Fred Indiana __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 16 Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 22:45:46 -0400 From: FirstPe315@aol.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Sul Sa Do Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To The List: Some information from this end. One of the Lee brothers actually opened a school in Portland, Oregon several years ago. I believe it was called Lee's Black Belt Academy. One of my goofy roommates at the time got a hair-up-his #$%@ about TKD one day (not sure why) and went to visit this particular school. He told them he wanted to be an Olympic TKD champion and they quickly signed him up saying that he could accomplish that goal. I guess theoretically he could have...unless you saw him...then you would probably say....forget it! Anyway, I strolled in one day as I often do to new schools in the area and the program basically worked like this. Once you got to 1st Dan in TKD, you could then study the secrets of the Sul Sa Do Warriors. One of their young (about 18yo) black-belts was fighting at a tournament that weekend and because I'm an idiot I decided to go and watch...wasn't that great. I think I heard (only heard) that the school closed down, there were some inproprieties. Haven't seen them in this area for several years. They sure looked impressive in their TKD Times article those many years ago. I remember it well. Jeff --__--__-- Message: 17 Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 20:00:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] The loop-hole in the sulsa story Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Tell me if this makes sense. According to the Lee bros., the legendary hwarang soldiers of ancient Korea became generals in the military, monks in the mountain monasteries, or family men when Korea became unified. Now from that right there it would seem to me that the hwarangs' martial art including the sul sa (knights of the night) would have been passed down into the military, passed down through the monasteries, and passed down from father to son. BUT, the Lee bros stated that they are the only 2 that were taught this entire system by a hermit monk whos living quarters were burned when he died. So my thing is, how can they be the only 2 who know the art? what about the other monks, and people? Isn't there other monks who know this art? Very suspect huh? Jye __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest