Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 06:34:05 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #481 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Fear of Jumping (Pat Montini) 2. RE:First Blood (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 3. moo duk kwan (sam saenz) 4. Re: moo duk kwan (Ray Terry) 5. HMD (Steve Kincade) 6. Re: KC AKTA Champs (ChunjiDo@aol.com) 7. RE: Fear of Jumping (Wallace, John) 8. MacHyungs (Charles Richards) 9. RE: Sounds like the 80s ninja craze. (Richard Zaruba) 10. Hapkido Forms (Hapkido Self Defense Center) 11. Welcome (Rudy Timmerman) 12. HapKiDo Techniques (J.R. West) 13. ITF Legal Advisers Statement (Ray Terry) 14. Yahoo spam, resolved (Ray Terry) 15. Hyungs with Bruce (Daves MA Mail) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:04:23 -0400 From: Pat Montini Organization: Mount Gallitzin Academy To: "the_dojang@martialartsresource.net" Subject: [The_Dojang] Fear of Jumping Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Good morning, I am young at martial arts however in my 50's. I seem to have a terrible fear of jumping especially for the jump side kick. To jump from a standing position seems to overcome me with fear. Can anyone help with any techniques to overcome this fear, especially of my legs not seeming strong enough to hold my fall? pat --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:27:40 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE:First Blood Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jim: "..... I was wondering if anyone had any commments or thoughts on the recent article in Black Belt magazine entitled "First Blood: Hapkido's Answer to Imminent Aggression Is the Pre-Emptive Strike" by Frank Enloe....." I was very sorry to read the article you referenced, and more so for the misinterpretation it could encourage among the KMA population. Traditional Hapkido is predicated on the Three Pillars including "the Water Principle", "Point & Circle" and "Economy of Energy." The Water Principle is commonly suggested or interpreted as to justify inresistable force and could not be further from the truth. The Water Principle bespeaks the ability of the Hapkido practitioner to respond with the appropriate technical level and intensity of action to whatever is presented them so as to end the conflict. An INappropriate application of this would be comparable to my hitting a person with a brick for sticking out their tongue at me. Now having said that let me say that this does not obviate the need to use feints, redirection, and so forth to optimize ones' response. It does not, however, justify a "hit-them-before-they-hit-you" rationale. I am not sure this is what the author of this article was actually advocating but I see plenty of "wiggleroom" for someone to use that article to support such a position. I think this is unfortunate. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:32:50 -0700 (PDT) From: sam saenz To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] moo duk kwan Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net When I was training back in the early eighties, my rank certificate was from the Korea Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan Association. That was under Master Kidok Kim who is now in Corpus Christi. Sam Saenz __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] moo duk kwan To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > When I was training back in the early eighties, my > rank certificate was from the Korea Tae Kwon Do Moo > Duk Kwan Association. The Korea Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan Association under CHON Jae-kyu is still alive and well. Funny story... A rather chubby Grandmasterwannabe down Florida way tried to tell me a year ago that Gm Chon had died. Imagine Gm Chon's surprise to hear that he was no longer with us... :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Steve Kincade" To: Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:10:15 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] HMD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sorry I haven't had time to reply to some of the recent inquiries. I am not an "official" speaker for Han Mu Do, but I have been one of Dr. Kimm's students for a while. Ray Terry asked about Han Mu Do videos, and got a couple of answers. I would just add that no forms are included. Forms are still "under construction", so to speak. He doesn't want to put out a tape now and another in a couple of years. However, if you or anyone else on this list would like to bring their video camera to Dojunim's seminar in Baton Rouge, you could make your own! I think Chris Hamilton did a good job explaining HMD forms. They are nothing like anything I have seen anywhere else. Was is Bruce who said something about Hapkido practiced by oneself is like a form? That's what ours are like, but in a pattern. Bruce, there is no "official" HMD website now. However, I will try to keep ya'll abreast of what's happening. I just got seminar info and will post it when I have time. Dakin, you said: He did borrow extensively from Kuk Sool, Hapkido, TKD and Judo, but only as a part of the system. Promise you won't laugh at my feeble attempt at web publishing and I'll let you look at this interview in which Dr. Kimm explains some of his organizational philosophies. http://www.hanmudojang.com/Interview.html Aren't words great! Do you mean "cutting out techniques" in the sense of eliminating techniques, or cutting out pictures to use as reference, as he did? Perhaps the best way to clarify would be to say that he used many resources from the numerous styles he had studied as well as his exhaustive historical research. Dr. Kimm used his Kuk Sool and Hapkido books extensively as references when organizing the self-defense techniques and rank requirements of his system. I think I remember a Judo book, too. I believe that to organize a truly comprehensive martial art system there would be many challenges. For instance, I've heard some Masters say that there are 3000+ techniques in their particular art. However, we know that many of these techniques are merely different applications of the same base technique. My understanding is that Dojunim was trying to cut down on needless duplication as much as possible, while making sure that nothing was left out. He would use the pictures to help spot duplications and arrange the order that he wanted his self-defense techniques to be taught. There is a very logical progression to the order in which the techniques are taught and the pictures certainly helped in this organization. My gut feeling is that the instructors you were talking with were trying to emphasize the comprehensiveness of the system rather than present it as one of these "absorb what is useful" things. I know that Dojunim is eager to demonstrate and share the uniqueness of Han Mu Do as a totally different martial art based on Korean tradition. His Baton Rouge seminar would be a great opportunity to see what it's all about. Han, Steve Kincade --__--__-- Message: 6 From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:21:30 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: KC AKTA Champs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "I've been to this 3 or 4 times ( can't go this year... rats..." thanks for the reply, kerry. we might try and head over there this year. i checked out the website and it does look like its open. i'll contact them and see. also, thanks to those who replied offlist....much appreciated :) take care, melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Academy http://www.cjmaa.com Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.cjmas.com Toll Free: 1-877-847-4072 Proud Sponsor of the 2003 Annual Show Me State Open Martial Arts Tournament --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Wallace, John" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Fear of Jumping Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:24:12 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Pat You didn't mention whether you're new the the MA, returning after a long absence, or what. If its either of those things, I'd advise you to listen to your body - its telling you its not ready for that level of stress yet. After a few months of several-times-per-week TKD workouts though, you should begin to feel more confident. In the meantime, when jumps are called for, work on the fundamentals. Be in control when you start the jump (pause and steady yourself if necessary), jump up instead of out, and focus on completing the motions of the kick, even if your foot doesn't move very much from the vertical (kick at a target below your waist). As you become more skilled at linking the movements together, your confidence in landing will improve, as you'll be sure that you can get your feet under you following the kick. It may be though, that you're a long-time practicioner who has never overcome your anxiety about jumping. I'd ask your master instructor for individual coaching in that case. John W. I Dan, TKD Fremont, CA -----Original Message----- From: Pat Montini [mailto:pizzadp@usaor.net] Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:04 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Fear of Jumping Good morning, I am young at martial arts however in my 50's. I seem to have a terrible fear of jumping especially for the jump side kick. To jump from a standing position seems to overcome me with fear. Can anyone help with any techniques to overcome this fear, especially of my legs not seeming strong enough to hold my fall? pat _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.400 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/9/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.400 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/9/2002 --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:58:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] MacHyungs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> I've heard this many times, but do not agree with it. I've heard that the 5 pyung-ahn forms were just Kong-sang-koon (kushanku) split up into smaller parts. Sure there are a couple of similar techniques, but kongsangkoon is in no way the same as the pyungahns. Look at the trademark moves in each pyungahn, and you really don't see them in kongsangkoon. Kongsangkoon also has moves found in Bassai/Pasai, as well as having moves not seen in any other hyungs. <> Agree with Mac and add some for example PA#1 introduces the center knife hand in front stance not seen in KSK but also introduces the concept of split-action combinations which are prevalent in KSK... PA#2 introduces the side punch (introduced in KiCho #3 if you do those sets)and reinforced block....The sidekick punch combo introduced here appears in many higher Hyung... PA#3 I must say stands alone in my mind, introducing scissors block, spinning hammer fist, elbow check (not in KSK but in Jindo) and Naifanchi style stomps.....So when we cut this one out of KSK we must have deleted a large portion of the "original" KSK, ne... PA#4 although in my mind closest to KSK of the Pyung Ahns introduces the knee strike (seen again in a more subtle execution in Rho Hai).. PA#5 introduces the low block in horse-riding stance and the inside crescent kick (also used in Bassai and Jindo) Further KSK introduces some unique techniques such as Foot behind knee crane stance followed by lowest stance chops (Choi ha dan sudo), spinning elbow and X-blocks in horse-riding stance.... So IMHO starting with the KiCho set will prepare you for Pyung Ahns, which introduces concepts and motions used in the higher or "free" hyung. Train with Jung Do in your hearts The rest is commentary, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TangSooDo __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Richard Zaruba" To: Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:34:54 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Sounds like the 80s ninja craze. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net During the 80s when ninjutsu was the rage a few different "sul sa" arts supposedly appeared out of obscurity. The Lee brothers about which you are speaking were one set and Joo Bang Lee of Hwarang-do supposedly introduced sulsa skills and arts. I still have a couple articles somewhere depicting both the Lee brothers and Joo Bang Lee showing there stuff. If I remember correctly Micheal Enchanis (sp?) was in the article with Joo Bang Lee. Rich ____________________________________________ Richard Zaruba Department of Anatomy & Cell Biology University of North Dakota School of Medicine 501 North Columbia Road P.O. Box 9037 Grand Forks, ND 58202-9037 zaruba@medicine.nodak.edu 701.777.2576 work 701.777.2477 fax >Message: 17 >Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 20:00:18 -0700 (PDT) >From: Jye nigma >To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [The_Dojang] The loop-hole in the sulsa story >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >Tell me if this makes sense. According to the Lee >bros., the legendary hwarang soldiers of ancient Korea >became generals in the military, monks in the mountain monasteries, or family men when >Korea became unified. Now from that right there it would seem to me that the hwarangs' >martial art including the sul sa (knights of the night) would have been passed down into >the military, passed down through the monasteries, and passed down from father to son. >BUT, the Lee bros stated that they are the only 2 that were taught this entire system by >a hermit monk whos living quarters were burned when he died. So my thing is, how can they >be the only 2 who know the art? what about the other monks, and people? Isn't there other >monks who know this art? Very suspect huh? > >Jye --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" To: "The_Dojang@Martialartsresource. Net" Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:41:16 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido Forms Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sorry Bruce, your answer was just about the WHF, not hapkido in general Jere R. Hilland www.geocities.com/hapkiyukwonsul --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:46:36 -0400 From: "Rudy Timmerman" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Welcome Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Welcome aboard Chris. Ray does a great job of keeping most of the BS out, so you won't have too many problems there. Rudy To Michael: I had someone placing some things in poor taste on my website guestbook. The person in question at least had enough brass to put a name with it; nevertheless, it was a pain in the butt. After a while, I got sick of removing the garbage, and I simply changed the words to read some complimentary things instead. I only had to do this twice before the garbage stopped:) Sometimes we need to fight fire with fire. Unfortunately, the ones who haven't got the brass to state their name usually won't stop until they get tired of it. The best way to handle it is to ignore it and go about your business as though they did not exist. I have been following your posts for some time now, and I have also noticed that you have what it takes in the "respect" dept:) Fortunately my friend Alain did what I should have done myself. Like he said, regardless of our position with regards to your Instructor, your conduct is beyond reproach. We are often quicker on the trigger to condemn, but too slow on giving credit where it is deserved. Rudy --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "J.R. West" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:04:28 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] HapKiDo Techniques Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. J. R. West I am a student of tae kwon do, my instructor also has "self defense" night at the dojang. His self defense routines are a collection of wrist manipulations performed with the students facing each other. There is no other body movements involved to effect the technique such as in judo, where you you move your body in certain directions in order to perform the technique. Could this be Hapkido he is teaching us? It is tough to say without actually watching these techniques, but I use my hips, shoulders and legs on even the most basic of techniques, and I teach this motion from day one.........Thanx for asking....J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 13 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:47:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] ITF Legal Advisers Statement Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarded message: ITF Legal Advisers Statement Regarding Trademark Status Response to Wim Bos Dear Mr. Wim Bos: As you are aware, on 6 July 2001, you hosted in Rimini, Italy, the World Championship and 13th Congress of the International Tae kwon-do Federation. The meeting was duly called and overseen by the then legal adviser to the ITF. At the Congress, by the unanimous consent of all those present, General Choi was confirmed to continue as President for two years and Master Choi, to succeed him thereafter for the balance of the term. An illegal meeting took place in Vienna which sought to overturn that decision which resulted in Master Choi taking over the Presidency at that point in time. As you know, as a result of that action, the offices of the ITF were moved to Canada where the ITF has continued its work. Your suggestion that you somehow have the exclusive rights to ITF in Italy is unfounded and totally without justification. At this point in time, Master Choi is not only the duly elected President of the ITF, he is also the legal owner of the trade marks associated with ITF. Should you continue to threaten other members of the ITF in Italy with legal action, we will have no alternative but to pursue you and obtain injunctive relief restraining you from using the ITF name, trade marks and logos. Your actions in trying to limit and or control the growth and development of Tae kwon-do in Italy is not viewed upon favourably by the ITF administration. Govern Yourself accordingly, Legal Advisor to the ITF Mr. Michael A. Tibollo Barrister at Law --__--__-- Message: 14 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:38:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [The_Dojang] Yahoo spam, resolved Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net fyi, I figured out where the spam was coming from via the Yahoogroups area. It was a "Steven van Ooyen". Don't know him, but for some reason he decided to sign up people to his group without their approval and against their wishes. He also crosslinked this list with his new list. Both are real bozo no-nos! The Yahoo Abuse department has dealt with him... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 15 From: "Daves MA Mail" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Hyungs with Bruce Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:19:49 -0400 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ohboyohboyohboy. Take a few days off from digest reading and there's this massive forms convesation. Time to dust off the (last updated in March) link to my forms list (the only impressive piece of my personal web site). http://www.geocities.com/david_a_hacker/MartialArts/matab.html. Always a work in progress, I hope it helps. Note: If you delve that deeply I really have tried to list all my references, and appoligise if I've inadvertantly left one out. Second Note: A neat trick to try. Take one of your favorite empty hand forms and do it with a bo, a jo, or sai (or pick an old weapon). A lot of times (unfortunately not always) the form works well with a weapon add.. Dave Hacker Jung Su Martial Arts Back to sleep now..... --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest