Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 03:01:50 -0700 From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #505 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: kma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Ouch - my aching ribs (Kim Sullivan) 2. Executive self defense programs (Hapkido Self Defense Center) 3. RE>counters (MW) 4. Re: Executive self defense programs (Ray Terry) 5. Re: RE>counters (Jye nigma) 6. Ouch! (CHRISPEN GRECO) 7. RE: RE>counters (Wallace, John) 8. Re: Executive self defense programs (Hapkido) (Lee Fisk) 9. Re: RE>counters (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Kim Sullivan" To: Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 22:48:28 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ouch - my aching ribs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello, I have agree with most of the advice given so far. I may have missed a few replies, so bear with me. Learning to block, parry, and move are vital. Many of these skills take time to develop (a few months usually aren't going to do it), depending on your kinesthetic ability and talent. That means you should be sparring with partners who know your skill level and will help you learn without injuring you in the process. With only a couple of months "on the job" even a good solid well executed punch should be controlled a bit more so that you do not develop the types of injuries you have experienced (providing no medical problems are contributing). This Try work with some more experienced partners (theoretically they should have better control) and tell them what you need to work on, hopefully, we are all on the same team and they will help point out your openings (light to moderately) to help you learn to cover up, block, parry, etc. Remember, this will take some time and lots of practice, but stick with it and try not to get frustrated. Keep working with partners who will challenge, but not injure, you until you are ready (you may want to wait a bit for the tournaments). A key point in addition to the other methods for evading and stopping or deflecting the punch is to learn to cover up your ribs. That means keeping your elbows down. Now that may not seem intuitive given that most of us start with the fists up, keep your head protected stance. But keeping your elbows down as you punch keeping your attacking side arm down to cover your ribs as you kick, etc. really cuts down on the rib shots. Most new students don't even know that they are keeping their elbows out (slightly, like wings) or are not retracting them to the elbows down position quickly after punching. Slow spar with a partner who "rib hunts" - again lightly - and play around with this. Due to the "help" of one partner who would take advantage of the smallest opening to literally lift the elbow up and attack the ribs with side kicks, I even learned to bring my elbow down and pin it to my hip when those kicks are incoming (don't forget to block your head with your other hand/arm). Good luck! ---Kim P.S. Weight is not necessarily the answer. Light people move faster! Try working with your instructor or a certified trainer to build muscle, but don't expect to put much "meat" on your ribs. Most of us just aren't built that way. --- Andy Settle wrote: > Hi! > > I'm coming out of lurk mode to ask a question > regarding punches to ribs - > specifically under the arms.... > > I've only being doing MA for a few months now. I'm > studying 2+ times a week > with a club here in the UK which is affiliated with > the English Korean Karate > Association (EKKA). I'm loving every minute of it > and have even recently > entered a local tournament for lower grade kumite. > > Here's my problem - I've taken a good few knocks to > my ribs, one's to the > chest are fine however I've already broken one rib > (according to my doctor) > during training from a punch to my right hand side > floating rib. During the > tournament I took a good punch to the upper ribs > under my arm on my left hand > side. > > Whereas the first incident was probably excessive > force and bad timing (which > has been addressed by discussions with my sparring > partner at the time) the > second incident was not in my opinion anything but a > good, clean, controlled > and well executed punch. There have been a number of > other incidents but the > latest one during kumite has concerned me.... > > A contributing factor is probably my build - 6'1" > tall at 65kg/140lb. Not a > great deal of 'meat' on my body and I find it very > difficult indeed to put on > weight of ANY kind (muscle OR fat). I am also 38 > years old. > > I am concerned that this is going to cause problems > with future competitive > kumite and training. At the moment for instance I've > not had an undisturbed > night sleep for over a week because of being woken > at night by the pain in my > ribs every time I roll over - it's like having a new > born baby in the family > demanding feeding again! > > From what I can gather from the anatomical diagrams > I've looked at - there > isn't that much muscle tissue covering the areas I'm > having a problem with - > apart from the intercostals(sp?) themselves. > > I suspect the answer is - going to be a combination > of 'learn to block better' > and 'get a bit of weight on'. But I thought I'd ask > you good folks for any > comments. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" To: Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:21:47 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Executive self defense programs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Brian, few styles of hapkido outside of sinmoo hapkido actually use high kicks. Most kicks in hapkido are only waist high. Jumping falls, etc., are not necessary to develop quality basic motion. I am 43 and 50% of my adult students are older than I am. Although I teach high kicks, high falls, etc to the kids, I am not going to expect a 50-year-old white belt to EVER do them. It has been my experience that you do not need to scale down hapkido in order to teach the older crowd that is new to the martial arts. All you have to do is eliminate the aspects that the older students physically can't do. In fact, hapkido's arsenal of low kicks is ideal for what you are trying to accomplish. While it is true that when I teach children the emphasis is on high kicks, high falls, etc., it is also true that when I teach adults to emphasis is on throws, joint locks, pressure point throws, etc... Hope this helps.... Jere R. Hilland www.geocities.com/hapkiyukwonsul --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: 25 Oct 02 11:05:01 -0500 From: MW To: the_dojang Subject: [The_Dojang] RE>counters Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Jye wrote: " I know there are certain times when to counter a technique a good spin mixed with another technique would be great if pulled off. For instance if the opponent throws a right side front turning kick, and you (facing the opponent) spin to the left and throw a spinning back kick that would be good, but few people can pull it off, and even if you can it's not really practical" I'm gonna have to disagree with the "not really practical" part of this thought. I quite often set my opponent up by leaving an "opening" where a front kick looks like a good move. After they have committed themselves to this I just move slightly to one side or the other, depending on the kick, and throw a spin kick,spin back, or bent leg hook and most of the time find my target. Now I'm not saying this is easy. It took me years to be able to read this and years of nursing bruised ribs when it didn't work. Just like anything in MA you have to practice,practice,practice. michael whalen KSWnut --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Executive self defense programs To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:51:38 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Brian, few styles of hapkido outside of sinmoo hapkido actually use high > kicks. Ummm, not sure I can agree with that. Gm Ji's Sin Moo comes out of his Sung Moo Kwan. Probably 80% or > of the world's Hapkido comes via the Sung Moo Kwan. Thus most of the HKD around the world includes high kicks, spin kicks, jump kicks. Now just how useful they are in self-defense situations is a whole 'nother discussion... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:12:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Jye nigma Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE>counters To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I'm not saying it wouldn't work because I have used it a great many times in sparring and in tournaments. Now as for the real fights I've been in, I never threw any spinning techniques because they are not practical for street applications, in a life or death situation you need to keep your eyes on your opponent at all times, and take the direct approach to your opponent. Also, what one may get away with in TKD sparring with TKD rules and regulations may not work outside of the TKD realm, meaning spinning techniques may work every single time in TKD sparring, but once you leave that realm and start sparring others from different arts, in a sparring match with different rules (allowing sweeps, elbows, knees, etc), then you will begin to see that alot of what is studied in TKD is not practical. My martial arts background consists of TKD WTF,ITF, shaolin Kung Fu, and some others. Now my personal system of martial arts is as follows: At the very core is my real fighting experiences, the kicking techniques of TKD and its striaght line concepts, boxing's power generating concepts and footwork/hand combos, wing chun's principles/theories as well as sticky/trapping hands, and snake boxing's manipulation of chi (ki for korean). I used others but I don't want to bore you guys. With this mixture I have a better handle on my martial arts. I spar realistically meaning full contact, using everything; the entire body, sweeps, head butts, knees, etc. I've trained in other styles of martial arts soft and hard styles and use only the practical applications. Now in TKD rules there is no sweeping so perhaps that spin technique would work everytime just as planned, but when you spar others of different martial art backgrounds, you'll quickly notice many TKD weaknesses, and other systems weaknesses. For instance the example you gave would definitely work against another TKD practitioner, but what about on someone who practices Capoiera? It's a completely different story! I know from experience. So, it's going to really depend of the people, styles, etc. So I don't want the person who got hurt to think that this is the absolute answer, each fight, competition, sparring session will be different and he needs to learn to adapt to each separate scenario. By the way in another group I asked ninjutsu practitioners how they would respond to a TKD kicking, you'd be shocked at the replies! Jye --- MW wrote: > I'm gonna have to disagree with the "not really > practical" part of this > thought. I quite often set my opponent up by leaving > an "opening" where a > front kick looks like a good move. After they have > committed themselves to > this I just move slightly to one side or the other, > depending on the kick, and > throw a spin kick,spin back, or bent leg hook and > most of the time find my > target. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:36:17 -0700 (PDT) From: CHRISPEN GRECO To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Ouch! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Andy, I fully agree with all of the good advice that people have offered you. I especially liked that we were reminded that one's diet does have an effect on how we perform, and how we recover from injury. I thought to offer some simple advice that applies to the mental aspect of Dae Ryun(Sparring) that might help. In sparring, there should be a connection with your partner(s). One of the best ways that I know to establish this connection is through your Shi Sun(focus). I know that before I grasped this concept my focus was everywhere. I would waste a lot of energy trying to anticipate the attack of my partner, or find the opening of my own with my eyes. This is a losing battle. This wandering focus,or "Chasing the Dragon's Tail method" only allowed me the ability to react. The ability to only react gave my partner control of the match. With good eye contact, and I mean unwavering eye contact, you now have options open to you that were once not there. Good Shi Sun and connection is going to allow you to have control over the tempo of the match. It's going to allow you to read your partner's thoughts and body language, as they once read yours. It will allow you to have the economy of motion that we all look for. I think most importantly, it will allow you the ability to relax. A master once told me that when we are born we only have two fears. The fear of loud noises, and the fear of falling. All of the other fears that we posses are created and conditioned within our minds. Most people coming through the ranks of the martial arts have the fear of being hit or more specific hurt. When they spar, they tense up and break the natural attraction or "connection" that human beings have with one another because of this fear. They put themselves into survival mode because of this reason. They can't help it. It took years of programming for them to get to that point. Being 6' 1", you might fuel there fears because of your size. In time, a martial artist comes to realize the difference between getting hit, and not getting hit is a matter of 1/2" of space or less. If you can retreat, side step, spin, move forward, just 1/2" from whatever threatens you, your safe. Grant it, it will take some trail and error, but I think that you will find it to be true. Then, one starts to de-program this fear from there mind. They will be confident and the ability to act and react effectively through the uses of positive eye contact. Lastly, the new found relaxation principle will cause you breathe thus helping you get grounded. One can still be quite light on their feet and grounded at the same time. Being grounded will open up all of the therapeutic aspects of the martial arts for you and give you clarity and decisive of movement. I think that the key to sparring in not about the kicks, punches, and points. Rather in how we interact with our partner(s). I think that maybe all the rest will come. I hope that this simple key of eye contact, along with all of the other wonderful advise you have received will help you with your mental sparring which in turn will reflect on the outside. Good luck in your journeys. Soo Bahk!!! Chrispen Greco --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Wallace, John" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] RE>counters Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:40:38 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Two questions Mr. Nigma: What was the gist of their replies, and how many of them had actually sparred with a TKD practicioner, vs just giving their opinion about what they _thought_ it would be like to spar against TKD. Its my impression that our brothers and sisters in other arts think that TKD kicks are a lot slower than they really are. There isn't really as much warning that a spin technique is coming (especially if its part of a combination) as is commonly thought. A simple side-step evasion can be turned into a spin kick pretty easily. Someday I'd like to spar against someone who's proficient at sweeping -----Original Message----- From: Jye nigma [mailto:kingjye@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 10:12 AM To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE>counters .... By the way in another group I asked ninjutsu practitioners how they would respond to a TKD kicking, you'd be shocked at the replies! Jye --- MW wrote: > I'm gonna have to disagree with the "not really > practical" part of this > thought. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.404 / Virus Database: 228 - Release Date: 10/15/2002 --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Lee Fisk" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 21:07:50 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Executive self defense programs (Hapkido) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I believe all (in the class) would be better served if some consideration was given to individuals abilities while in the main stream school as opposed to segregating based on age. While training at age 50, there are things I can't do as well as some of the young students; there are things I can do better. These vary significantly depending upon to who I compare my self. I ask you to consider what your response is when a student who is age 25 can't manage a technique? Do they stop progressing in the art or do they simply learn that they have limitations. Doesn't each student have weaknesses and strengths? I would not like to only work with individuals at my own level. I would never learn what my limitations are; I could potentially get in a lot of trouble that way. Beside my cain comes in useful on occaision and I really can do a lot of damage gumming people on the arm. ;-) Regards, Lee Fisk (Tucson, AZ) >Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 12:59:30 -0400 >From: Brian Beach >To: >Subject: [The_Dojang] Executive self defense programs >Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >Does anyone have any experience with scaled down programs for Hapkido for >the 35-40+ age group. We have had some members that have expressed interest >in a program that eliminates some of the more strenuous activities i.e. >jumping and spinning kicks and no hands/sky falls. We also have others that >fit that age group that just work to the best of their ability and seem to >get along fine. In fact they seem to work a little bit harder than some of >the younger students that these things come more easily. The program would >be separate from the Hapkido program maybe called an executive self defense >program. Has anyone tried this type of program? Any success with it? Did it >add value to your school? Would the school be better served by recommending >a different school to people with these requests? > >Thanks, > >Brian > >P.S. This is not an invitation to open up the Combat Hapkido thread. This >program would be separate from the Hapkido program. _________________________________________________________________ Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free!  Try MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE>counters To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > in a sparring match with different rules (allowing > sweeps, elbows, knees, etc), then you will begin to > see that alot of what is studied in TKD is not practical. Actually I would say it is all practical. It is just that some people tend to employ certain techniques when they are not practical. Nothing wrong with a spin technique, as long as it is used at an appropriate time and situation. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-866-4632 FAX 719-866-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and http://MartialArtsResource.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest